Does God predestine sin?

Greg Cheney said:

You may see no need to explain yourself, but again, you seem to talk in circles. You stated God had a purpose for sin. I asked if you think God ordains sin and you just now stated "no" - thank you for the clarification. But your explanation concerning allowing sin, the creation of the serpent, etc., appears to be lacking clarity. Perhaps you have not conveyed what you are actually thinking, in fairness to you.

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Greg, I don't know if you are a father, but assuming you are how do you train your children about evil that exists in this world? It is through understanding evil that leads to death that we understand the love that leads to life. If we never experience evil, and death why would we need a Savior?

Greg Cheney said:

If I could have saved 10 people but only saved 5 from a burning fire, I chose not to save the other 5. Call it what you wish.

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There you go being negative again! I would argue that five were saved. What if there was none willing to give up his life to save any of them? How many would then be saved?

rwb said:

Greg, I don't know if you are a father, but assuming you are how do you train your children about evil that exists in this world? It is through understanding evil that leads to death that we understand the love that leads to life. If we never experience evil, and death why would we need a Savior?

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But to follow your thinking, one would have to conclude that God wanted to save, so he created (or intentionally allowed) evil (and the suffering that would accompany it I might add) so he could save. That seems to charge God with causing sin so he could save us from sin. God would have much rather preferred (I say this based on his reactions toward sin) to have people obey him without the need for Christ to suffer (of course, this does not happen). So I say that God prepared for sin but he did not put a plan into place to purposefully bring sin and evil into the world. Maybe we misunderstand each other in some ways, but to be clear, I do not believe that evil was a necessary part of creation. Satan and man are responsible for moral evil; not God.

rwb said:

There you go being negative again! I would argue that five were saved. What if there was none willing to give up his life to save any of them? How many would then be saved?

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Negative? Ha. This is an old Calvinist argument that holds no water. A spade is a spade.

Clare73 said:

Scripture doesn't present God as "allowing" anything, but rather preordaining everything, even the fall for his purpose: i.e., Romans 9:23.

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Such verses alluded to are about how HE deals with sinners who need control and direction, not the innocent (those who have not yet made a decision about their faith) who 'need' to be allowed to explore their feelings and desires and to learn what GOD hopes for them so that by their free will they can decide to put their faith in HIM as GOD or reject HIM as a liar.

Where is it written that the HIS method for our election must be the same as the method for our salvation??

In our innocence we had a free will.
As sinners we do not have a free will which became enslaved by evll, nor do we need a free will as all of salvation is outside of our will and predetermined by GOD (I'm not tainted by Arminianism as some are with the idea of a fake limited free will) but...

to give pure, real, worship and free praise, our free will must be returned to us as it was before our sinful choice. And I contend that this return was by our rebirth which broke our addictive enslavement to evil. At least I've heard no better idea.

rwb said:

Sorry, but this is about as clear as MUD! I have no idea of what you are saying??? Your argument is with Scripture because I did not say God created evil, He did!

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You tell us the reason my logic escapes you when you contend by implication that your interpretation of HIS word is the pure truth of HIS meaning! GOD did NOT say HE creates evil - that is your erroneous interpretation of HIS words.

rwb said:

Lest any begin to say God created the serpent (Satan), and by his free will he chose wickedness and evil. Christ does not agree!

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speakreth of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

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From the beginning does not refer to his creation but to his being the beginning of sin in GOD's creation.

Hawkins said:

However, this is under the circumstance that God is in control of everything, that is, nothing is unexpected. Free will goes as expected while God knows everything beforehand.

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This implies that GOD knew who would end in hell before He created them BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY! This contradiction must be reconciled by a redefinition of HIS being all knowing, the pagan Greek definition of omniscience that the early church appropriated (GOD knows all that can be known from all time past to all time future.) is faulty.

Clare73 said:

One more time. . .limited free will allows one to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint (i.e., freely), what they prefer, like.

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A will is free or it is coerced. Limited free will is a myth invented because people could not stand predeterministic lives ending in the damnation of some not by their choice because they repudiated our living pre-earth with a free will and choosing our own fates, heaven or hell, then.

Greg Cheney said:

Parallels or analogous references do not imply an act was decreed. David spoke of being betrayed by his friend and Christ related this to his betrayal by Judas.
It does not mean that David was referring to Judas.

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It means that David was a type (pattern) of Christ.

Cockalorum said:

Since God is sovereign and everything created is for a purpose (John 1:3, Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16, Romans 9:18) according to his will and for his pleasure (Psalms 115:3, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 26:39) and God knows all things and everything that will ever happen. (Isaiah 46:9-10)

God is the author (Isaiah 45:7) does he use sin of the righteous to bring us closer to him? (Romans 8:28) we know that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 would this mean that God predetermines/predestines sin as well according to his will? (Genesis 50:20)

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I guess you'll have to answer, to your own satisfaction, if cause-and-effect is pervasive, or does anything happen by mere "chance". Also, you will have to decide for yourself, whether God is the one and only First Cause.

The one verse that forms thought in this area is
1 John 1:5 (KJV)
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If your reasoning has God involved in any form of activity or thought/creation or purpose in darkness you have departed from Scripture to something not of Scripture…

TedT said:

A will is free or it is coerced. Limited free will is a myth

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Contraire. . .we see its operation on every page in the Bible. . .people choose to either receive or reject the gospel.
But nowhere do we see them choosing to be sinless in thought, word and deed. . .because they can't.
The freedom of their will is limited.
Jesus of Nazareth is the only one who had the freedom of will to make that choice.

invented because people could not stand predeterministic lives ending in the damnation of some not by their choice because they repudiated our living pre-earth with a free will and choosing our own fates, heaven or hell, then.

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TedT said:

A will is free or it is coerced. Limited free will is a myth invented because people could not stand predeterministic lives ending in the damnation of some not by their choice because they repudiated our living pre-earth with a free will and choosing our own fates, heaven or hell, then.

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Then, you are also, like God, a first cause? Can you logically show how there can be more than one first cause? I can show how there cannot be more than one.

enoob57 said:

The one verse that forms thought in this area is
1 John 1:5 (KJV)
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If your reasoning has God involved in any form of activity or thought in darkness you have departed from Scripture to something not of Scripture…

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The one verse? There are several such verses. He does not sin, nor does he tempt anyone.

But your thinking, (it seems to me), involves principles of physics applied to spiritual things. It doesn't work that way.

Greg Cheney said:

One can take their Christocentric view too far and read things into matters that are clearly analogous and get the OT wrong because they see a shadow in everything. Their "spiritualization" of the OT goes too far. John Goldingay explains this in one of his volumes. Parallel fulfillments are when the scriptures are applied to a situation because of its similarity, though the original passage was not specifically about that event.

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The proto-types are never about the anti-type events.

Who knew all the sacrifices were a type of Christ?

That is seen only in the light of the NT after the fact.

Strong in Him said:

I said, "Scripture as a whole".
I quoted several verses to you; you have ignored them all.
I'm not "setting it against itself".
I have quoted a number of verses, from both Old and New Testaments, to show what God is like - his love, purity, light, justice, perfection and so on. You seem to be saying that a few verses taken out of context, or at least, your interpretation of those verses, is more important than the ones which I quoted. One of which was 1 John 4:8.

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None of which you reconcile with Romans 9:18-21.

Greg Cheney said:

I disagree with your premise that God chose some to turn to him and left the rest for damnation. It is not supported by scripture, only by Calvinist interpretations.

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You missed Romans 9:18-21.

Poor Calvin! . . .gets blamed for everything God says and does.

ViaCrucis said:

If God has predestined every sinful act you do,

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And if God lies. . .

Both being irrelevant.

then that makes Him culpable for your sins, and makes Him the biggest sinner of all. And would render Him a hypocrite far worse than even the most hard-hearted Pharisee.

If God says "Do not murder" but then has arranged the universe so that you have to murder, then you have become nothing more than a marionette whose strings are manipulated by a monster.

-CryptoLutheran

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atpollard said:

God is not the author (first cause) of sin.
Even sin serves the purposes of God (His will).

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I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...

This implies that GOD would never not save anyone who could be saved to become HIS Bride, not for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would ever be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.

It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.

By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.