If Amils are right and we are in the Millennium "Kingdom" now, what other verses back this up?

Spiritual Jew

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Yes - I'm guilty of articulating my beliefs as "replacement theology" in the past. How would you define it more subtly? I have an article I'm thinking of - but I'm interested how you would summarise it in a short elevator pitch. (30 seconds - 2 paragraphs)
How would I define what exactly? If you are calling your beliefs "replacement theology" then who exactly is being replaced and who is replacing them and in what way?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes - I'm guilty of articulating my beliefs as "replacement theology" in the past. How would you define it more subtly? I have an article I'm thinking of - but I'm interested how you would summarise it in a short elevator pitch. (30 seconds - 2 paragraphs)

The teaching of the Church for most of its history has rejected the idea that there is any theologically distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Christ during the new covenant era. They believe there has only ever been one spiritual people from the start. These believers do not claim to hold to “Replacement Theology,” but rather ‘Remnant Theology’ meaning there is a continuity between God’s people in the Old and New Testament. Other terms describe the same position like ‘Continuity Theology’, ‘Inclusion Theology’ and ‘Expansion Theology’. Some use comparable expressions like ‘Addition Theology’ or ‘Fulfilment Theology’. Another lesser-used expression is ‘Messianic Fulfillment Theology’. Regardless of which one of these phrases is preferred, its advocates believe that the New Testament Church (assembly) is not a replacement of Israel, neither is it a new Israel, but it is an extension and continuation of true faithful Israel. This is supported by the fact that the inception of the new covenant didn’t mark the end of the Abrahamic lineage of faith but rather the enlargement of the same.

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel (Expansion Theology). Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Of course!
For a fee, of course, right? :D

The teaching of the Church for most of its history has rejected the idea that there is any theologically distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Christ during the new covenant era. They believe there has only ever been one spiritual people from the start. These believers do not claim to hold to “Replacement Theology,” but rather ‘Remnant Theology’ meaning there is a continuity between God’s people in the Old and New Testament. Other terms describe the same position like ‘Continuity Theology’, ‘Inclusion Theology’ and ‘Expansion Theology’. Some use comparable expressions like ‘Addition Theology’ or ‘Fulfilment Theology’. Another lesser-used expression is ‘Messianic Fulfillment Theology’. Regardless of which one of these phrases is preferred, its advocates believe that the New Testament Church (assembly) is not a replacement of Israel, neither is it a new Israel, but it is an extension and continuation of true faithful Israel. This is supported by the fact that the inception of the new covenant didn’t mark the end of the Abrahamic lineage of faith but rather the enlargement of the same.

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel (Expansion Theology). Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.
Very well said. Thanks for chiming in. I wasn't sure what to tell him. I didn't have knowledge of all those different terms.
 
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Guojing

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Guojing

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Yes, exactly. This is the only people of God on the planet until eternity. They are the true children of Abraham. They are the children of promise. They are true Israeli citizens. They are the circumcision. They are the spiritual Jews.

I repeat my point again

The Body of Christ is NOT Israel, whether spiritual or otherwise.

National Israel has a future destiny with God during the Tribulation, as Paul would explain in Romans 11:25-32.

God made a promise to Israel's ancestors, Abraham, Issac and Jacob and as Paul would state in Romans 11:28, he will hold to that promise.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I repeat my point again

The Body of Christ is NOT Israel, whether spiritual or otherwise.

National Israel has a future destiny with God during the Tribulation, as Paul would explain in Romans 11:25-32

You admitted those passages re circumcision, the Jews and Israel relate to the body of Christ. I agree.

Rom 9-11 does not say Israel will return to God, only God is able. That is it.
 
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Guojing

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You admitted those passages re circumcision, the Jews and Israel relate to the body of Christ. I agree.

Rom 9-11 does not say Israel will return to God, only God is able. That is it.

Your understanding of Romans 11:25-32 is different from mine, I understand it literally.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Your understanding of Romans 11:25-32 is different from mine, I understand it literally.

Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.

We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

This is actually saying the opposite to what many Premillennialists argue. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

To paraphrase this passage and its meaning in common language, ‘it is not the sum-total of natural Israel that has obtained the salvation it wishes, but only they who have entered into the election of grace by faith; the remaining Israelis that depend upon their own pitiful religious efforts are blind’. God has only partially set Israel aside. A distinguished faithful remnant remains committed to Yahweh through faith in Christ. This indeed is “a remnant according to the election of grace.” Israel is hence split into two camps. Israel, like any other nation, had two distinct peoples, one saved and the other lost. The saved are God’ elect and have been saved by His wondrous grace. The lost foolishly depend upon their own works and are accordingly damned because of it.

The New King James Version is slightly clearer, “What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

Paul’s very statement “the rest were blinded” and his detailed description of the awful plight of such foolish Jews, supports the view that there are two distinct companies of Israeli in view – one being a band of “blinded” Israelis, the other a band of enlightened “elect” Israelis. This passage again reinforces Paul’s thought that the whole nation is not blinded, rather “blindness in part is happened to Israel” or ‘part of Israel is blind’. Whilst a large section of the nation has manifestly rejected Christ since the cross, and are therefore spiritually deceived by the devil (2 Corinthians 4:4), there is a small chosen assembly of Israelis throughout history that have eyes to see and ears to hear, who belong to the good olive tree. These believers are the faithful Israeli congregation (ekklesia) in both testatments that are transformed through faith in Messiah, and are the redeemed of God.

Those who voice their disagreement with divine election need to see that the issue is not God electing for Him a people and leaving others hardened. After all, grace entails undeserved favor. It is the fact that God carries sovereign authority to save who He wishes. Paul states in Romans 9:18-21: “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

The blindness of Israelis in the New Testament was because of the hardness of their own hearts. God sovereignly chose to leave them in their stubborn rebellion. It is the same for all unbelievers – Jew or Gentile. Only a remnant was elected and received a new heart; and because it is by faith, so all Israel will be saved, the true children of Abraham. It is they who will receive all the promises which Christ obtained for them.

The “election” (the elect) mentioned in Romans is simply another term for those who know God. The “blinded” on the other hand are those who are separated from God. The same reality is played out throughout the nations of this world. Notwithstanding, Paul’s main interest in Romans 10-11 is his own kinsmen. So, despite the overwhelming number of Israeli nationals rejecting Christ, the apostle shows that God was still faithful to His chosen people Israel (the elect).
 
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Guojing

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Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.

We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

This is actually saying the opposite to what many Premillennialists argue. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

To paraphrase this passage and its meaning in common language, ‘it is not the sum-total of natural Israel that has obtained the salvation it wishes, but only they who have entered into the election of grace by faith; the remaining Israelis that depend upon their own pitiful religious efforts are blind’. God has only partially set Israel aside. A distinguished faithful remnant remains committed to Yahweh through faith in Christ. This indeed is “a remnant according to the election of grace.” Israel is hence split into two camps. Israel, like any other nation, had two distinct peoples, one saved and the other lost. The saved are God’ elect and have been saved by His wondrous grace. The lost foolishly depend upon their own works and are accordingly damned because of it.

The New King James Version is slightly clearer, “What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

Paul’s very statement “the rest were blinded” and his detailed description of the awful plight of such foolish Jews, supports the view that there are two distinct companies of Israeli in view – one being a band of “blinded” Israelis, the other a band of enlightened “elect” Israelis. This passage again reinforces Paul’s thought that the whole nation is not blinded, rather “blindness in part is happened to Israel” or ‘part of Israel is blind’. Whilst a large section of the nation has manifestly rejected Christ since the cross, and are therefore spiritually deceived by the devil (2 Corinthians 4:4), there is a small chosen assembly of Israelis throughout history that have eyes to see and ears to hear, who belong to the good olive tree. These believers are the faithful Israeli congregation (ekklesia) in both testatments that are transformed through faith in Messiah, and are the redeemed of God.

Those who voice their disagreement with divine election need to see that the issue is not God electing for Him a people and leaving others hardened. After all, grace entails undeserved favor. It is the fact that God carries sovereign authority to save who He wishes. Paul states in Romans 9:18-21: “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

The blindness of Israelis in the New Testament was because of the hardness of their own hearts. God sovereignly chose to leave them in their stubborn rebellion. It is the same for all unbelievers – Jew or Gentile. Only a remnant was elected and received a new heart; and because it is by faith, so all Israel will be saved, the true children of Abraham. It is they who will receive all the promises which Christ obtained for them.

The “election” (the elect) mentioned in Romans is simply another term for those who know God. The “blinded” on the other hand are those who are separated from God. The same reality is played out throughout the nations of this world. Notwithstanding, Paul’s main interest in Romans 10-11 is his own kinsmen. So, despite the overwhelming number of Israeli nationals rejecting Christ, the apostle shows that God was still faithful to His chosen people Israel (the elect).

As long as you keep to the term Israel and not the Body of Christ, I agree with most of your points.
 
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Guojing

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And your answer makes no sense to me. I just can't make any sense of how you interpret scripture.

Just because you disagree with an answer does not mean it was not given.

I interpret every scripture passage in that post literally.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I repeat my point again

The Body of Christ is NOT Israel, whether spiritual or otherwise.
Who are those in the body of Christ? The children of God, right? Paul taught that there is an Israel besides the nation of Israel that consists of the children of God. So, how could he not have been speaking of the body of Christ?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What Paul taught here is that there is an Israel besides the nation of Israel which consists of Abraham's spiritual seed and they are "the children of God" and "the children of the promise".

Who are the children of God and children of the promise? Those who are in the body of Christ. As Paul described here:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you agree that the above passage is in reference to the body of Christ? If so, then that should tell you something about what Romans 9:6-8 means. If not, then why not?
 
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Guojing

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Who are those in the body of Christ? The children of God, right? Paul taught that there is an Israel besides the nation of Israel that consists of the children of God. So, how could he not have been speaking of the body of Christ?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What Paul taught here is that there is an Israel besides the nation of Israel which consists of Abraham's spiritual seed and they are "the children of God" and "the children of the promise".

Who are the children of God and children of the promise? Those who are in the body of Christ. As Paul described here:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you agree that the above passage is in reference to the body of Christ? If so, then that should tell you something about what Romans 9:6-8 means. If not, then why not?

The Body of Christ are Jews and gentiles who believed the gospel of grace given to Paul found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

True Israel are those Jews who believed that Jesus is the promised Son of God, aka the gospel of the kingdom (John 20:31, Acts 2:36)

That is the difference.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Just because you disagree with an answer does not mean it was not given.

I interpret every scripture passage in that post literally.
You seem to have some trouble with reading comprehension. I don't say that to offend, I say that as an observation. In no way, shape or form did I say that you did not give an answer. I'm only saying that I don't understand your answer. To the point where I don't even know how to respond to it.
 
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eclipsenow

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The teaching of the Church for most of its history has rejected the idea that there is any theologically distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Christ during the new covenant era. They believe there has only ever been one spiritual people from the start. These believers do not claim to hold to “Replacement Theology,” but rather ‘Remnant Theology’ meaning there is a continuity between God’s people in the Old and New Testament. Other terms describe the same position like ‘Continuity Theology’, ‘Inclusion Theology’ and ‘Expansion Theology’. Some use comparable expressions like ‘Addition Theology’ or ‘Fulfilment Theology’. Another lesser-used expression is ‘Messianic Fulfillment Theology’. Regardless of which one of these phrases is preferred, its advocates believe that the New Testament Church (assembly) is not a replacement of Israel, neither is it a new Israel, but it is an extension and continuation of true faithful Israel. This is supported by the fact that the inception of the new covenant didn’t mark the end of the Abrahamic lineage of faith but rather the enlargement of the same.

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel (Expansion Theology). Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.

Nicely put - and in line with the article I often quote. Sydney Anglicans tend to call this "Covenant Theology" which emphasises the covenant of grace God made with Israel and how it ultimately all points to Jesus and unfolds around Jesus. But I can see the rationale for the terms you've referenced.

Here's the article I often reference - and I think you summarised it nicely.

Recently I had a question asking whether “covenant theology” is so-called “replacement theology.” Those dispensational critics of Reformed covenant theology who accuse it of teaching that the New Covenant church has “replaced” Israel do not understand historic Reformed covenant theology. They are imputing to Reformed theology a way of thinking about redemptive history that has more in common with dispensationalism than it does with Reformed theology.

First, the very category of “replacement” is foreign to Reformed theology because it assumes a dispensational, Israeleo-centric way of thinking. It assumes that the temporary, national people was, in fact, intended to be the permanent arrangement. Such a way of thinking is contrary to the promise in Gen. 3:15. The promise was that there would be a Savior. The national people was only a means to that end, not an end in itself. According to Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22, in Christ the dividing wall has been destroyed. It cannot be rebuilt. The two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) have been made one in Christ. Among those who are united to Christ by grace alone, through faith alone, there is no Jew nor Gentile (Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11).

At least some forms of dispensationalism have suggested that God intended the national covenant with Israel to be permanent. According to Reformed theology, the Mosaic covenant was never intended to be permanent. According to Galatians 3 (and chapter 4), the Mosaic covenant was a codicil to the Abrahamic covenant. A codicil is added to an existing document. It doesn’t replace the existing document. Dispensationalism reverses things. It makes the Abrahamic covenant a codicil to the Mosaic. Hebrews 3 says that Moses was a worker in Jesus’ house. Dispensationalism makes Jesus a worker in Moses’ house.

Second, with respect to salvation, Reformed covenant theology does not juxtapose Israel and the church. For Reformed theology, the church has always been the Israel of God and the Israel of God has always been the church. Reformed covenant theology distinguishes the old and new covenants (2 Cor. 3; Heb. 7-10). It recognizes that the church was temporarily administered through a typological, national people, but the church has existed since Adam, Noah, and Abraham; and it existed under Moses and David; and it exists under Christ.

Third, the church has always been one, under various administrations, under types, shadows, and now under the reality in Christ, because the object of faith has always been one. Jesus the Messiah was the object of faith of the typological church (Heb. 11; Luke 24; 2 Cor. 3), and he remains the object of faith.

Fourth, despite the abrogation of the national covenant by the obedience, death, and resurrection of Christ (Col. 2:14), the NT church has not “replaced” the Jews. Paul says that God “grafted” the Gentiles into the people of God. Grafting is not replacement, it is addition.

It has been widely held by Reformed theologians that there will be a great conversion of Jews. Some call this “anti-Semitism.” This isn’t anti-Semitism, it is Christianity. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). The alternative to Jesus’ exclusivist claim is universalism, which is nothing less than an assault on the person and finished work of Christ. Other Reformed writers understand the promises in Rom. 11 to refer only to the salvation of all the elect (Rom. 2:28) rather than to a future conversion of Jews. In any event, Reformed theology is not anti-semitic. We have always hoped and prayed for the salvation, in Christ, sola gratia et sola fide, of all of God’s elect, Jew and Gentile alike.
Covenant Theology Is Not Replacement Theology
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The Body of Christ are Jews and gentiles who believed the gospel of grace given to Paul found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

True Israel are those Jews who believed that Jesus is the promised Son of God, aka the gospel of the kingdom (John 20:31, Acts 2:36)

That is the difference.
There is only one gospel. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you over this nonsensical belief of two gospels. That is something clearly not taught in scripture anywhere.
 
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Guojing

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You seem to have some trouble with reading comprehension. I don't say that to offend, I say that as an observation. In no way, shape or form did I say that you did not give an answer. I'm only saying that I don't understand your answer. To the point where I don't even know how to respond to it.

You don't even know what you typed. Here is the first sentence of your post I was replying to

Why didn't you answer my question?
 
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Guojing

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There is only one gospel. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you over this nonsensical belief of two gospels. That is something clearly not taught in scripture anywhere.

That is the main reason why you cannot separate Israel from the Body of Christ.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You don't even know what you typed. Here is the first sentence of your post I was replying to
You didn't quote that in your response to me, so how was I supposed to know you were referring to that? And your answer wasn't even directly in response to me (it was a post you made to Randy that I hadn't read), but I was somehow supposed to know you already answered it despite that? Come on. Stop wasting my time with these games you're playing.
 
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