Postmillennialism

Jeffwhosoever

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No Jeff, man is not failing the Gospel. How could man be failing since taking the Gospel unto all the earth through the church (mankind) is ordained by God? The proclamation of the Gospel has, is and will continue to build the Kingdom as the church takes it unto all the earth, and the Kingdom of heaven is being built and will be complete.

Man has free will to believe in Christ or reject Him. Somewhere in Scripture it says broad is the way to hell and narrow is the way to heaven. Satan is not bound, and his evil influence is growing throughout every facet of society. In Arizona this spring there was the first international Satanist gathering.

Look at the US alone. The number one category of religious affiliation is the "unaffiliated". Search for "Rise of the unaffilated. Here is one link: “Nones” on the Rise.
 
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rwb

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Man has free will to believe in Christ or reject Him. Somewhere in Scripture it says broad is the way to hell and narrow is the way to heaven. Satan is not bound, and his evil influence is growing throughout every facet of society. In Arizona this spring there was the first international Satanist gathering.

Look at the US alone. The number one category of religious affiliation is the "unaffiliated". Search for "Rise of the unaffilated. Here is one link: “Nones” on the Rise.

Jeff, what does any of this have to do with the success of man proclaiming the Gospel and building the Kingdom of heaven through the power of the Word and Spirit?

Yes, I agree this world is getting progressively eviler as the close of redemptive history draws nearer and nearer. But despite the evil in this world the Kingdom of heaven is being completed as the Gospel is proclaimed. The fact that the Gospel's proclamation is having such success should be evidence that Satan's power to hold people in bondage to fear of death has been defeated by the cross and resurrection. This is why the Gospel sent out by the Church (man) is seeing success throughout the earth. How could the nations be turning to Christ for eternal life when they hear the Gospel in the power of the Spirit if the power to hold them in bondage to fear of death has not already been broken?
 
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Hammster

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Scripture of course comes first but its not Scripture that we debate but the interpretation of that Scripture, and such interpretation necessarily involves history. Preterists use the account of Josephus to establish their claim that AD 70 fulfilled the Olivet Discourse and Revelations 1-20 or 21. Historicists use the fall of the Roman empire in their interpretation of Scripture. Futurists do the same, except we believe of course that complete fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation 4-22 occur in a future time, which will then be history.
We aren’t discussing that, though. You were bringing up that postmillennialism can’t be true because of what you see in the world. So with that context, let me ask again. Should we have as our authority what you see, or what scripture teaches?
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Jeff, what does any of this have to do with the success of man proclaiming the Gospel and building the Kingdom of heaven through the power of the Word and Spirit?

Yes, I agree this world is getting progressively eviler as the close of redemptive history draws nearer and nearer. But despite the evil in this world the Kingdom of heaven is being completed as the Gospel is proclaimed. The fact that the Gospel's proclamation is having such success should be evidence that Satan's power to hold people in bondage to fear of death has been defeated by the cross and resurrection. This is why the Gospel sent out by the Church (man) is seeing success throughout the earth. How could the nations be turning to Christ for eternal life when they hear the Gospel in the power of the Spirit if the power to hold them in bondage to fear of death has not already been broken?

What evidence do you have of the Gospel's proclamation having such success?
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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We aren’t discussing that, though. You were bringing up that postmillennialism can’t be true because of what you see in the world. So with that context, let me ask again. Should we have as our authority what you see, or what scripture teaches?

I don't claim postmillennialism cannot be true, just that it is less likely the best interpretation of Scripture. Scripture is our authority, no questions about that, but how you interpret Scripture is obviously open to a wide range of beliefs. Postmillennialism as I understand it believes the world must become nearly 100% Christian before the Lord come, and beyond that, it holds that most of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse have been fulfilled, which is most unlikely given the specific details that the Lord and John gave us.''

You've been in multiple threads where we debated things like Matthew 24:14 and other events that simply have not yet occurred, and unless you can find where it states it has happened (past tense) in Scripture, we must examine the history and see if what was prophesized has happened yet or not. You can't turn a blind eye to history because it doesn't fit your eschatological view.

If Postmodernism was the best interpretation, we should be seeing the entire planet convert to Christianity, no more wars or famines, and the goodness of humanity prevaiiing. Is that what you see when you look at the word today?
 
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rwb

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What evidence do you have of the Gospel's proclamation having such success?

The Word of God!

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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The Word of God!

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

How does his verse prove the success of the Gospel?
 
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Timtofly

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Okay, let me rephrase my question to you, how is man failing the gospel? If man has failed the gospel, then God is without power to save His elect. His gospel goes out into the world through mankind! Man is the instrument that God has chosen to use to fulfill His purpose for saving a people for Himself through the proclamation of the Gospel, sent in the power of His Spirit. So if man has failed the gospel as you ASSUME, then the gospel has failed, therefore God has failed and could not accomplish His plan to eternally save His elect people through the Gospel and Holy Spirit power.

Of course the most ridiculous part of this is that it denies God has power to save His people and that makes Satan victorious.
Men fail by simply rejecting the gospel. Of course God has the power to save all. God does not force any one to be elected. They just are elected from God's perspective. No one is without election.

Now some at the Second Coming will be surprised they are elected. The sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 are not forced against their will. But they will be glad they were chosen and not cast into the LOF.

So I don't see how Satan is victorious just because humans are selfish and choose their own way instead of God. Would not Satan had won by default if God provided redemption for only 10% of humanity?
 
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I don't claim postmillennialism cannot be true, just that it is less likely the best interpretation of Scripture. Scripture is our authority, no questions about that, but how you interpret Scripture is obviously open to a wide range of beliefs. Postmillennialism as I understand it believes the world must become nearly 100% Christian before the Lord come, and beyond that, it holds that most of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse have been fulfilled, which is most unlikely given the specific details that the Lord and John gave us.''

You've been in multiple threads where we debated things like Matthew 24:14 and other events that simply have not yet occurred, and unless you can find where it states it has happened (past tense) in Scripture, we must examine the history and see if what was prophesized has happened yet or not. You can't turn a blind eye to history because it doesn't fit your eschatological view.

If Postmodernism was the best interpretation, we should be seeing the entire planet convert to Christianity, no more wars or famines, and the goodness of humanity prevaiiing. Is that what you see when you look at the word today?
So you’ve answered the question. You gave lip service to scripture, but you are more concerned with what you see around you than you are with what scripture says will happen.
 
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Timtofly

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No Jeff, man is not failing the Gospel. How could man be failing since taking the Gospel unto all the earth through the church (mankind) is ordained by God? The proclamation of the Gospel has, is and will continue to build the Kingdom as the church takes it unto all the earth, and the Kingdom of heaven is being built and will be complete.
Evangelism is not the point according to many. The gospel has already reached the whole world is the claim. Not the failure of Evangelism. The failure of humans who reject the Gospel for their own selfish desires. That is what got us into trouble to begin with. Adam and Eve put themselves first before God. Exactly what Satan wanted.
 
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Timtofly

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It says Jesus would save His people from their sins. Has He failed to do that?
His people were put on hold. Are you saying all His people die in their sin, but still end up in Paradise, while Gentiles have to accept the Gospel?
 
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5thKingdom

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Postmil and Amil were essentially one school with different emphasis before the current age. Postmil was optimistic and Amil is pessimistic. Since both views are very similar .


Yes, both are similar EXCEPT one says Christ Returns after the (A-Millennial) Church Age
and the other says Christ Returns (at least) 1000 years later.

Yep, 1000 years difference is "similar".

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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It took me 20 years to settle into a position on the millennium, one that "fit" all of scripture and fuels me to evangelism.


I thought you said you discovered eschatological chronology during the COVID lockdowns.
They were not 20 years.

The A-Millennial position is the traditional position of the apostles and early christians.
Very Godly men have studied the issue for DECADES and have agreed.

I did not see you explain WHY the Post-Millennial view is correct and
I did not see you explain (to another poster) how Satan's "Little Season" begins
AFTER the 1000 year is (wait for it....) finished.

These are not minor faults.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Some would have us believe, especially some of these Amills you bring up here, plus Preterists as well, that there are no prophecies still needing to be fulfilled before Christ can return.



Such a strawman argument.
Historically A-Millennialism was the view taught by the Apostles and early Christians.
That does not mean they believed all prophecies were fulfilled - quite the opposite.
Only that the prophecies WOULD BE fulfilled during the (A-Millennial) Church Age.


2Th 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the
Day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Clearly the Apostles and early Christians were expecting the "Man of Sin" to be (wait for it....)
"revealed" before the Lord would Return.


Now... here is something that will blow your mind.
The Apostles also taught that the Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way"
BEFORE Satan could be loosened from the Bottomless Pit to RULE during his "Little Season".


Note: The saints could not "live and reign with Christ" while Satan is ruling
during his "Little Season"... these are two separate and distinct periods in time.


The "Man of Sin" could not be "revealed" until (a) the Holy Spirit was "taken out of the way"
and (b) Satan had RULED over the Last Saints during the Great Tribulation (Revelation Beast)


2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth [the Holy Spirit restrains]
that he [the Man of Sin] might be REVEALED in his time. For the mystery of iniquity
doth already work: only he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit now restrains]
will let [will continue to restrain], until he be taken out of the way.


Again: The saints could not "live and reign with Christ" while Satan is ruling
during his "Little Season"... these are two separate and distinct periods in time.


Jim
 
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Spiritual Jew

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His people were put on hold.
What does that mean?

Are you saying all His people die in their sin, but still end up in Paradise, while Gentiles have to accept the Gospel?
Nope, I wasn't saying that at all. Are you sure you're responding to my post and not someone else's? The verse referenced said that Jesus would save His people from their sins. Who are His people? All people who belong to Him, including you and me. Has Jesus saved us from our sins or did He fail to do so? He clearly didn't fail, right? Is there something hard to understand about this?
 
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Timtofly

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I thought you said you discovered eschatological chronology during the COVID lockdowns.
They were not 20 years.

The A-Millennial position is the traditional position of the apostles and early christians.
Very Godly men have studied the issue for DECADES and have agreed.

I did not see you explain WHY the Post-Millennial view is correct and
I did not see you explain (to another poster) how Satan's "Little Season" begins
AFTER the 1000 year is (wait for it....) finished.

These are not minor faults.

Jim
The Apostles taught Jesus would return after an indefinite 1,000 years?

I thought they taught the Second Coming was soon?

How is "soon" an "indefinite 1,000 years"?
 
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Timtofly

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What does that mean?

Nope, I wasn't saying that at all. Are you sure you're responding to my post and not someone else's? The verse referenced said that Jesus would save His people from their sins. Who are His people? All people who belong to Him, including you and me. Has Jesus saved us from our sins or did He fail to do so? He clearly didn't fail, right? Is there something hard to understand about this?
His people are the people the prophet was addressing. Who are the people the OT was given to?

Daniel 9 explains the end of sin. That was put on hold, as sin is still in the world.

What the Cross accomplished is very important to the Gospel and to all of Adam's dead flesh. You are expanding the verse to include all of Adam's flesh, while Jesus was born to a very ethnic people whose ethnicity was wrapped up in their whole existence. Jesus was not born to Chinese parents. Are all Chinese Jesus' people, or just the one's who accept Jesus as their savior?

Are you going to expand Daniel 9 equally to mean "all redeemed people". Did the redeemed destroy Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD? Was His people cut off as the natural branches? Was His people both the natural and the wild?

To save people from their sin, could also mean instantly make all of Adam's flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies along with being glorified. That is the restored image as a son of God. Have only sons of God been enjoying earth these last 1992 years? Has there literally been no sin, no sin nature, and no death and decay in all of creation? You limit how they are saved, but expand who are affected.

Paul claimed "His people" were set aside for the fulness of the Gentiles. A time when His people were no longer ethnically segregated. That did leave His people out in the dark, because the light changed things. The verse was given before the Cross. Now the fulfillment will have to wait until His people see their Prince.

None of this nor your implication the church is now His people changes the verse. The church is totally beside the point. Even the church still has to deal with their sins. Sinless perfection is the bias of liars.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The Apostles taught Jesus would return after an indefinite 1,000 years?

I thought they taught the Second Coming was soon?

How is "soon" an "indefinite 1,000 years"?
What in the world are you talking about here? You're not a preterist, so why are you talking about the apostles teaching that Christ's second coming was literally going to happen soon? Did you become a preterist without me realizing it or are you not really thinking very carefully about what you're saying here?
 
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His people are the people the prophet was addressing. Who are the people the OT was given to?

Daniel 9 explains the end of sin. That was put on hold, as sin is still in the world.

What the Cross accomplished is very important to the Gospel and to all of Adam's dead flesh. You are expanding the verse to include all of Adam's flesh, while Jesus was born to a very ethnic people whose ethnicity was wrapped up in their whole existence. Jesus was not born to Chinese parents. Are all Chinese Jesus' people, or just the one's who accept Jesus as their savior?

Are you going to expand Daniel 9 equally to mean "all redeemed people". Did the redeemed destroy Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD? Was His people cut off as the natural branches? Was His people both the natural and the wild?

To save people from their sin, could also mean instantly make all of Adam's flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies along with being glorified. That is the restored image as a son of God. Have only sons of God been enjoying earth these last 1992 years? Has there literally been no sin, no sin nature, and no death and decay in all of creation? You limit how they are saved, but expand who are affected.

Paul claimed "His people" were set aside for the fulness of the Gentiles. A time when His people were no longer ethnically segregated. That did leave His people out in the dark, because the light changed things. The verse was given before the Cross. Now the fulfillment will have to wait until His people see their Prince.

None of this nor your implication the church is now His people changes the verse. The church is totally beside the point. Even the church still has to deal with their sins. Sinless perfection is the bias of liars.
So, let's just think about the Israelites then. Has Jesus failed to save His people among the Israelites from their sins? No. So, everything I've said still applies whether we include Gentiles in the conversation or not.
 
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