Hour of trial on the whole world

claninja · Jun 29, 2022

Douggg said:
Asia (minor), that small area globally speaking, comprised all the world ?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

No, and that’s never been my position.

Douggg · Jun 29, 2022

claninja said:
Imho, it seems the apostate Jews, who were persecuting the church of Philadelphia

claninja, this is just a side note piece of information.... if you were talking to a Jew (Judaism), they call Jews who become Christians - as apostate Jews.

Hammster · Jun 29, 2022

Douggg said:
claninja, this is just a side note piece of information.... if you were talking to a Jew (Judaism), they call Jews who become Christians - as apostate Jews.

In the language of the first century church, they were apostate as the Christians were the true Jews. That’s why the unbelieving Jews are called the synagogue of Satan.

Timtofly · Jun 29, 2022

parousia70 said:
Right, I do. but that Day is FIXED in time, Appointed to take place at one moment in history only. It is not a movable target applicable to all Christians of all ages, becasue if it were, that would make the doctrines of 1948, computerized mark, and nuclear war impossible doctrines not taught about in scripture.

If there is any "Church Age Dispensation" or "1948" or "Computerized mark" to be found in prophetic scripture, then Revelation 2-3 clearly demonstrates that Jesus knew nothing about it! There is no way around it. If Jesus was, in your view, offering Christians the possibility of a second coming back in the first century, or the 7th century, or the 12th, 16th....then that makes the glorified Jesus entirely ignorant of the Long Church Age Dispensation, ignorant of the Fig tree Budding in 1948, and ignorant of any computerized mark that is inserted into one's hand! Or, if he wasn't ignorant, and simply deliberateyl mislead people into believing it coufd happen in their day, when He clearly knew better, it makes Him out to be a Liar. This fact alone entirely destroys the main tenets of futurism.

The only tenet of futurism is what has not happened yet.

Your post makes it seem humans have to defend God's honor, since God is not capable. God can defend His own honor.

Preterist are in the same boat. Their boat just sank full of lies in the first century. This claim about futurist calling Jesus a liar is a smoke screen, since the evidence has not even happened yet.

Futurist cannot change the past. Preterist cannot fix the past to make their theology work.

claninja · Jun 29, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
agree with you that Revelations 1-3 applied both to the generation of John's time in specific ways and are lessons for the church of all times, until the Church is one day perfected when the Lord returns again.

absolutely agree.

the following refers to first century events that apply to the church or Ephesus. but that doesn’t mean there aren’t lessons for Christians throughout history:

Revelation 2:2-6 ‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary.4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

The following refers to events that took place for the church of Smyrna. That doesn’t meant Christians throughout history can’t learn from them:

Revelation 2:9-11 I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slandera of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

the following events pertain to the first century church of pergamum, but that doesn’t mean the church throughout history can’t learn from them:

Revelation 2:13-16 I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faithbeven in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth

The following events occurred to the first century church in thatyira, but that doesn’t mean the church throughout history can’t learn from them:
revelation 2:19-24 I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.20But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality.22Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.24But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.

the following pertains to the church in laodicea, but again that doesn’t mean the church throughout history can’t learn from it.

Revelation 3:15-19 ‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.19Those whom I love, I reprove

So…..when we come to the church in Philadelphia, why wouldn’t “the hour of trial about to come upon the whole world” pertain to the first century audience, as the rest of the events prescribed to the 6 other churches were clearly events that were occurring to them in the first century?

Revelation 3:8-10 I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Jeffwhosoever said:
Does someone suggest that Revelations 1-3 has never applied to Christians until whatever generation happens to be living when the Lord does return, whether that is tomorrow or in a thousand years?

yes, specifically revelation 3:10. When asked how the church of Philadelphia has been kept from the hour of trial about to come upon the whole world, it’s usually met with the answer “it hasn’t happened yet” or I’ve misunderstood the “angel of the church in Philadelphia” or “only God knows what that event was”…

claninja · Jun 29, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
Maybe we hear the Preterist and Futurist interpretation of "the whole world?" Is it a reference to the entire planet Earth, to the entire inhabited earth, or the entire region of the middle east that is the core of this debate?

the main point of the debate is:

“what is the hour of trial coming upon the whole world (oikoumene: Roman world), that the church of Philadelphia was kept from for their enduring patience?”

the preterist understands the “hour of trial” to mean the time from 66-70ad (Jewish Roman war and year of four emperors)

But if it’s not about that, what event coming upon the whole world was the church in Philadelphia kept from?

Timtofly · Jun 29, 2022

claninja said:
the main point of the debate is:

“what is the hour of trial coming upon the whole world (oikoumene: Roman world), that the church of Philadelphia was kept from for their enduring patience?”

the preterist understands the “hour of trial” to mean the time from 66-70ad (Jewish Roman war and year of four emperors)

But if it’s not about that, what event coming upon the whole world was the church in Philadelphia kept from?

The Roman emperor merry go round and 70AD Jerusalem would not be an hour that concerned the church at Philadelphia. Jerusalem's destruction did not even effect the entire earth. Jerusalem at that point was hardly the center of all earth's governments. Revelation 17 and 18.

Hammster · Jun 29, 2022

Douggg said:
I think once a person considers the degree of destruction caused by the trumpets and vials, the hour of trial has not happened yet.

On this chart, that I am working in concert with keras to put his view on chart form, there are a quick synopsis of each trumpet and vial.

View attachment 317616

It’s fan fiction, at best, since the trumpets have blown quite some time ago.

Jeffwhosoever · Jun 29, 2022

Hammster said:
It’s fan fiction, at best, since the trumpets have blown quite some time ago.

Where is proof that the Trumpet's have blown some time ago?

7 Trumpet Judgments - Main End Time Event

What Are the Seven Trumpets in Revelation?

Hammster · Jun 29, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
Where is proof that the Trumpet's have blown some time ago?

7 Trumpet Judgments - Main End Time Event

What Are the Seven Trumpets in Revelation?

I think the judgment on Israel and the destruction of the temple is pretty solid evidence.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 29, 2022

keras said:
That is what happened. They died before 'the hour of trial'.
What Jesus said to the 7 Churchs never actually applied to them.

Please tell me you were joking when you said this. You can't expect to be taken seriously by making comments like this.

So, for example, when Jesus rebuked the people of the church in Laodicea for being lukewarm (Rev 3:14-19), He wasn't actually saying that the people of the church in Laodicea were lukewarm?

We only assume they received them and read them to their congregations, but maybe even that didn't happen?

I'm just shaking my head over here.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So, Jesus told John to write down what he saw and have it delivered to those seven actual churches in the actual existing Roman province of Asia, but you think He wouldn't make sure that they received the letters in time to be encouraged by His positive messages and in time to heed His warnings and instructions for them? In that case, why in the world were they even addressed to those churches if nothing written there actually applied to them? Come on. Be serious.

If they did get their Letter, it would have been an encouragement to them, but they died before what Jesus said was fulfilled. Matthew 3:12

So, the way in which Jesus kept them from the hour of trial was by letting them die rather than from protecting them from it while they were alive as the verse indicates He would do (which is similar to what He said in John 17:15)?

Those Letters are for OUR elucidation, for the end times peoples to take note of. This is how most Bible scholars view them, why must you demand they applied only to the ancient Churchs mentioned?

Show me where that is stated in the letters themselves. Good luck. Yes, what is written there in Revelation 2-3 are things that the church can always learn from, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anything there that specifically applied to those churches. Again, there's the example where Jesus scolded the church in Laodicea for being lukewarm. He wasn't calling other people lukewarm, He was calling those actual people in that actual church lukewarm. And it has served as a warning for any lukewarm people ever since as well, but it was still primarily addressed to the people in that church.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 29, 2022

Hammster said:
I think the judgment on Israel and the destruction of the temple is pretty solid evidence.

How did the judgment on Israel and destruction of the temple result in the kingdom of the world becoming the kingdom of the Father and His Son, as Revelation 11:15 mentions? How exactly were the dead judged and the saints rewarded already (see Rev 11:18)?

I think it makes more sense to relate the seventh trumpet to the last trumpet referenced in 1 Cor 15:50-54 which will sound when Christ returns and the resurrection of the dead occurs in the future.

Hammster · Jun 29, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
How did the judgment on Israel and destruction of the temple result in the kingdom of the world becoming the kingdom of the Father and His Son, as Revelation 11:15 mentions? How exactly were the dead judged and the saints rewarded already (see Rev 11:18)?

I think it makes more sense to relate the seventh trumpet to the last trumpet referenced in 1 Cor 15:50-54 which will sound when Christ returns and the resurrection of the dead occurs in the future.

There were already saints in the presence of God who were praying to Him. The judgement came upon those who persecuted them.

keras · Jun 29, 2022

Douggg said:
Regarding the two witnesses, if I place them starting on day 1260, that that would put them on being killed 1260 days later on day 2520 the same day Jesus returns. Is that what you want? .

Yes.
The two Witnesses commence at the mid point of the 7 years, when the Temple is given over to the ungodly people, Revelation 11:2, and finish when Jesus Returns, exactly 1260 days later. Revelation 11:3

Douggg said:
In the past in our discussions, you said the two witnesses begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the midpoint.

I did consider that possibility, but now reject it.

Please remove 'Today' at the start and put: The Day that comes as a thief; the prophesied sudden and shocking worldwide disaster. Isaiah 24:1-6

I have to admit that a graph like this is a good way to present the sequence of the end time events, thanks!

Spiritual Jew · Jun 29, 2022

Hammster said:
There were already saints in the presence of God who were praying to Him. The judgement came upon those who persecuted them.

I have no idea how this addresses what I said in post #220. Oh, well.

keras · Jun 29, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Please tell me you were joking when you said this. You can't expect to be taken seriously by making comments like this.

So, for example, when Jesus rebuked the people of the church in Laodicea for being lukewarm (Rev 3:14-19), He wasn't actually saying that the people of the church in Laodicea were lukewarm?

Like every Congregation now and thru history, there are people of great faith and people who merely warm the pew, and all types between.
Are you joking when you think that every Christian Laodicean was 'lukewarm'?

Spiritual Jew said:
I'm just shaking my head over here.

The reason for your inability to comprehend these truths and concepts, is as Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us.
Isaiah 29:9 says: If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded....... Revised English Bible translation.
Also Jesus said: these things, [the Prophetic Words] are hidden from the wise and learned.....Matthew 11:25
ONLY by clearing the mind of false and non- Biblical teachings and doctrines, can anyone understand God's plans for our future.

Spiritual Jew said:
So, the way in which Jesus kept them from the hour of trial was by letting them die rather than from protecting them from it while they were alive as the verse indicates He would do (which is similar to what He said in John 17:15)?

There was no need to protect them from what did not happen in their time, or for anyone since then.
But it is more than likely that the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will happen in OUR time.
A prospect so abhorrent and unacceptable that many Christians have chosen to believe weird and unBiblical fables, as Paul said they would in 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Spiritual Jew said:
Show me where that is stated in the letters themselves. Good luck.

I do not want or need your 'good luck'.
ALL of the Bible is for our learning and knowledge, your attempts to make it apply only to a specific group, or in the past; are wrong.

Douggg · Jun 30, 2022

Timtofly said:
Why cannot you point out the 7th Trumpet is a week long? The first 3.5 days is when the celebration of Christ's gaining all kingdoms happens.

In the midst of the 7th Trumpet sounding, Satan's 42 months starts with the AoD. At the end of the 42 months, the final 3.5 days (of the 7th Trumpet) finish when the 2 witness are dead on the streets of Jerusalem.

There are no Trumpets nor vials during the 42 months. Unless the 7th Trumpet sounds the whole 42 months. The vials are poured out during those 3.5 days at the end after the 42 months are over.

Tim, let's wait till the k1 chart is finished. Then either keras or myself can open another thread and we can discuss it.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 30, 2022

keras said:
Like every Congregation now and thru history, there are people of great faith and people who merely warm the pew, and all types between.
Are you joking when you think that every Christian Laodicean was 'lukewarm'?

I didn't say that, so I couldn't possibly be joking about that. But enough of them were lukewarm to make Jesus say to that church "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth". Why was that specifically addressed to the church in Laodicea if it didn't apply to any of them?

How about this:

Revelation 2:1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Jesus was addressing people who already had "tested those who claim to be apostles but are not" and "have persevered" and "endured hardships". How could that be addressed to us today when He was talking about things that already had happened?

And do the Nicolaitans still exist today? No. They existed back then in the first century. So, how can you think this applies specifically to us today? Do you spend time thinking about how you hate the practices of people who haven't even been around for a long time?

Can we learn from that passage and apply principles from it and other parts of Revelation 2 and 3? Of course. But, that doesn't mean it was all addressed to us. No, it was specifically addressed to seven actual churches in the actual first century Romans province of Asia.

The reason for your inability to comprehend these truths and concepts, is as Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us.
Isaiah 29:9 says: If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded....... Revised English Bible translation.
Also Jesus said: these things, [the Prophetic Words] are hidden from the wise and learned.....Matthew 11:25
ONLY by clearing the mind of false and non- Biblical teachings and doctrines, can anyone understand God's plans for our future.

That passage is talking about UNBELIEVERS when it talks about people being blinded. So, you are calling me an unbeliever by saying that passage applies to me. That is UNACCEPTABLE. Have you forgotten that you will be judged with the same measure that you judge others? That is not a good thing for you. You might as well have just said "Please put me on your ignore list" and saved some typing. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you need to resort to condemning them like this. You should be ashamed of yourself for condemning fellow Christians just because they don't agree with some of your end times views.

There was no need to protect them what did not happen in their time, or for anyone since then.
But it is more than likely that the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will happen in OUR time.

I do not want or need your 'good luck'.
ALL of the Bible is for our learning and knowledge, your attempts to make it apply only to a specific group, are wrong.

I'm not making the entire Bible apply only to a specific group. That is a false accusation. I'm only making certain verses within a small part of the book of Revelation apply to a certain group because those verses are specifically addressed to them. And I did say that we all can learn things and apply things from those verses to ourselves as well.

Hammster · Jun 30, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I have no idea how this addresses what I said in post #220. Oh, well.

Probably because you are trying to fit it into a future model when indeed it happened in the past.

keras · Jun 30, 2022

Douggg said:
If I need to fix anything, let me know.

'The two Witnesses killed'; please add: '3 1/2 days prior'.
Also add; 'The Millennium reign of King Jesus. The Great White Throne Judgment, Then Eternity.

Put both of our timelines up in a new thread, thanks.

Hour of trial on the whole world

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Psalm 144:1

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Psalm 144:1

Faithful Servant & Seminary Student

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Psalm 144:1

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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