Does God predestine sin?

TedT said:

What we think of (what feels like...) as righteous desires and likes are in fact evil thoughts and desires because our evil nature corrupts even our most loving and noble desires to fulfill some sinfulness: Isa 64:6 Each of us has become like something unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all wither like a leaf, and our iniquities carry us away like the wind. We have no free will to correct this corruption that permeates our whole being, life and will...at least until we are reborn into HIS Spirit.

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A will that can't chose to be righteous is not FREE by any useful definition at all. I thought you were a Calvinist, not an Arminian...?

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One more time. . .limited free will allows one to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint (i.e., freely), what they prefer, like.

Fallen man has limited free will.

Clare73 said:

One more time. . .limited free will allows one to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint (i.e., freely), what they prefer, like.

Fallen man has limited free will.

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Exactly! Man will always choose according to his/her nature. Without the Spirit, natural man will never freely choose to submit to God. And it is only by His grace through faith He bestows upon us that any repent and turn to Christ to be saved.

PuerAzaelis said:

Even the predestination itself to the eternal kingdom is so arranged by the omnipotent God that the elect attain it from their own effort.

Gregory, quoted in Carole Straw, Gregory the Great: Perfection in Imperfection (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1988), p. 140.

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Not according to the word of God in John 3:3-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

Clare73 said:

PRECISELY!!!

Are you saying I should apologize for accepting and agreeing with Scripture?

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No - but we need to read Scripture as a whole, and it does not say that.

God IS love, 1 John 4:8.
The qualities of love are described in 1 Corinthians 13; it is patient, kind, does not delight in evil, always protects, always hopes etc etc. God's love is ultimately seen in the cross, 1 John 3:16 - his sinless Son willingly laid down his life so that sinners, God haters and people who didn't deserve anything from God could be reconciled to him again.
God is light, 1 John 1:5, with NO darkness in him at all. Jesus said that God is perfect, Matthew 5:48.
Genesis tells us that God regarded his creation as being VERY good, Genesis 1:31.
The Psalmist says that God is perfect and all his ways are just.
Peter says that it is not God's will that anyone should perish, 2 Peter 3:9

So it is unsatisfactory, when I say "why would God predestine people to sin and then punish them for their sin," to answer "because it was his will" and quote one verse.
That goes against what Scripture says about the character of God. It is not kind, it is not the actions of a perfect heavenly Father who gives no one a stone when they want bread. It is not just - it is not even logical.

Clare73 said:

Perhaps you missed Romans 9:20: "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' (Isaiah 29:16, 45:9)"

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Scripture does not say that God made people to be sinners.

In Noah's day, sin was out of control. God did not say, "good, they are doing what they were created to do", he was grieved and punished them.
The OT prophets said, time after time, "obey God and his law and you will be blessed; disobey and turn from God and you will be punished" - and when he nation turned from God and worshipped idols, they were punished. Many died, and others were sent into exile. At no point did God say, "they are doing what I created them to do - sin; I will reward them."

If someone was created by God TO sin and they did, they would be doing what God wanted - they would be commended for being what they were made to be and do. In fact, if they repented of sin and did good, THAT would be a sin - because God's will for them was for them to sin.
Jesus said that the devil was a liar and murderer from the beginning, and told the Pharisees they were doing what their father, i.e. Satan, did.

I can't see how any non believer would want to believe in a God who created them to be evil, and who one day would punish them for being evil. Neither would I, come to that.
Fortunately I believe I have been made in the image of God - same as everybody else.

Clare73 said:

Not according to the word of God in John 3:3-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

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Yes it is quite a scandalous statement. It is interesting because Gregory the Great claimed to be an Augustinian but he read Augustine through the lens of John Cassian, who of course was a semi-Pelagian (of sorts).

Strong in Him said:

No - but we need to read Scripture as a whole, and it does not say that.

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It says Romans 9:18-21, to which you reply "it does not say that."

Are you not the one who is not reading Scripture as a whole, setting it against itself in Romans 9:18-21 and 1 John 4:8?

God IS love, 1 John 4:8.
The qualities of love are described in 1 Corinthians 13; it is patient, kind, does not delight in evil, always protects, always hopes etc etc. God's love is ultimately seen in the cross, 1 John 3:16 - his sinless Son willingly laid down his life so that sinners, God haters and people who didn't deserve anything from God could be reconciled to him again.
God is light, 1 John 1:5, with NO darkness in him at all. Jesus said that God is perfect, Matthew 5:48.
Genesis tells us that God regarded his creation as being VERY good, Genesis 1:31.
The Psalmist says that God is perfect and all his ways are just.
Peter says that it is not God's will that anyone should perish, 2 Peter 3:9

So it is unsatisfactory, when I say "why would God predestine people to sin and then punish them for their sin," to answer "because it was his will" and quote one verse.
That goes against what Scripture says about the character of God. It is not kind, it is not the actions of a perfect heavenly Father who gives no one a stone when they want bread. It is not just - it is not even logical.

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Scripture does not say that God made people to be sinners.

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Scripture does not say that the earth is square.

Relevance?

In Noah's day, sin was out of control. God did not say, "good, they are doing what they were created to do", he was grieved and punished them.
The OT prophets said, time after time, "obey God and his law and you will be blessed; disobey and turn from God and you will be punished" - and when he nation turned from God and worshipped idols, they were punished. Many died, and others were sent into exile. At no point did God say, "they are doing what I created them to do - sin; I will reward them."

If someone was created by God TO sin and they did, they would be doing what God wanted - they would be commended for being what they were made to be and do. In fact, if they repented of sin and did good, THAT would be a sin - because God's will for them was for them to sin.
Jesus said that the devil was a liar and murderer from the beginning, and told the Pharisees they were doing what their father, i.e. Satan, did.

I can't see how any non believer would want to believe in a God who created them to be evil, and who one day would punish them for being evil. Neither would I, come to that.
Fortunately I believe I have been made in the image of God - same as everybody else.

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PuerAzaelis said:

It makes a considerable difference, however - nothing less than our understanding of the nature of God is at stake - whether one says that God has eternally willed the history of sin and death, and all that comes to pass therein, as the proper or necessary means of achieving his ends, or whether one says instead that God has willed his good in creatures from eternity and will bring it to pass, despite their rebellion, by so ordering all things toward his goodness that even evil (which he does not cause) becomes an occasion of the operations of grace.

God has fashioned creatures in his image so that they might be joined in a perfect union with him in the rational freedom of love. For that very reason, what God permits, rather than violate the autonomy of the created world, may be in itself contrary to what He wills. But there is no contradiction in saying that, in his omniscience, omnipotence, and transcendence of time, God can both allow created freedom its scope and yet so constitute the world that nothing can prevent him from bringing about the beatitude of his Kingdom. Indeed we must say this: as God did not will the fall, and yet always wills all things toward himself, the entire history of sin and death is in an ultimate sense a pure contingency, one that is not as such desired by God, but that is nevertheless constrained by providence to serve his transcendent purpose. God does not will evil in the sinner. Neither does he will that the sinner should perish (2 Peter 3:9; Ezek. 33:11). He does not place evil in the heart. He does not desire the convulsive reign of death in nature. But neither will he suffer defeat in these things.

David Bentley Hart. The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami? (Kindle Locations 684-687). Kindle Edition.

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PuerAzaelis said:

The curious absurdity of all such doctrines is that, out of a pious anxiety to defend God's transcendence against any scintilla of genuine creaturely freedom, they threaten effectively to collapse that transcendence into absolute identity - with the world, with us, with the devil. For, unless the world is truly set apart from God and possesses a dependent but real liberty of its own analogous to the freedom of God, everything is merely a fragment of divine volition, and God is simply the totality of all that is and all that happens; there is no creation, but only an oddly pantheistic expression of God's unadulterated power. One wonders, indeed, if a kind of reverse Prometheanism does not lurk somewhere within such a theology, a refusal on the part of the theologian to be a creature, a desire rather to be dissolved into the infinite fiery flood of God's solitary and arbitrary act of will. In any event, such a God, being nothing but will willing itself, self, would be no more than an infinite tautology - the sovereignty of glory displaying itself in the glory of sovereignty - and so an infinite banality.

David Bentley Hart. The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami? (Kindle Locations 759-765). Kindle Edition.

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Romans 9:23.

rwb said:

Really? How do you prove what you assume? Because God takes credit for creating the serpent, who is Satan. And is not he the deceiver of the whole world?

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Revelation 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

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You missed the entire point and went out in left field. Strong's Concordance: Evil (Isaiah 54:7) - bad, adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, grief, harm.

Its not an assumption, friend.

rwb said:

Who has stated or implied that God causes evil in a wicked sense? God plainly states He creates evil, why? Because He created the evil being, Satan, then allowed him to deceive mankind through the serpent, why? God must have a purpose for allowing His perfect creation to be polluted by sin and death through sin, what is the purpose for God allowing this? We know God uses sin, that He allowed to enter into His perfect creation to accomplish His will, so what is God's will, that He would allow this evil being, whom He created to enter into His perfect created order?

When thinking on the answer, remember God already had an answer for the problem of sin and death through sin before the foundation of the world; i.e. the Lamb slain from before creation.

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Preparing for sin is not the same as causing sin and willing sin.

Cockalorum said:

would this mean that God predetermines/predestines sin as well according to his will?

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God is not the author (first cause) of sin.
Even sin serves the purposes of God (His will).

Genesis 50:20 [NASB95]

• Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery.

Greg Cheney said:

You missed the entire point and went out in left field. Strong's Concordance: Evil (Isaiah 54:7) - bad, adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, grief, harm.

Its not an assumption, friend.

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Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

רַע raʻ, rah

from H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):—adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displease(-ure), distress, evil((-favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, × great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Including feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.)

At least you got part of the definition right.

Greg Cheney said:

Preparing for sin is not the same as causing sin and willing sin.

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I never said God caused them to sin or willed them to sin. I said Adam and Eve with total autonomy to obey or disobey chose to disobey God and heed the voice of the serpent. Why would God ordain a plan to undue sin and death before creation if He had not a purpose for sin?

atpollard said:

God is not the author (first cause) of sin.
Even sin serves the purposes of God (His will).

Genesis 50:20 [NASB95]

"As for you, you meant evil against me, [but] God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.​

• Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery.

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Exactly! Sin was always a means through which God would fulfill His purpose to save His people. That God allowed sin and death through sin to enter His perfect creation to test mankind should show us that man with unfettered autonomy will never freely choose to submit to another being. Not even to God for life. God could have created man without freedom to disobey Him but then mankind really would be doing what they were programmed to do.

But the fall opened their eyes showing them that evil leads to death. Prior to knowing either good or evil how could they know that God created mankind for relationship. We can't have a relationship with God without knowing good. Man first need to see their need for a Savior before they have any desire to accept the love of God in sending His Son to redeem us from the curse of death we brought upon ourselves when we disobeyed the Creator.

rwb said:

I never said God caused them to sin or willed them to sin. I said Adam and Eve with total autonomy to obey or disobey chose to disobey God and heed the voice of the serpent. Why would God ordain a plan to undue sin and death before creation if He had not a purpose for sin?

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In case I misunderstood, are you saying that God ordained sin because he has a purpose for sin? Or that God purposed to deal with sin once it occurred?

rwb said:

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

רַע raʻ, rah

from H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):—adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displease(-ure), distress, evil((-favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, × great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Including feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.)

At least you got part of the definition right.

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I used the definition that applied. A word can have more than one meaning, it doesn't mean that you apply all of the possibilities to the same word. Context matters. The Bible nowhere says that God is the author of moral evil. It does reveal that he brings calamity.

Greg Cheney said:

Christ was destined to die; the scriptures did not convey a specific mode. In fact, Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said: “Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory” (1 Corinthians 2:8). Why would God inspire him to write something that would be a mere hypothetical idea? Unless of course one does as the Calvinist and try to make a verse mean something other than what it actually says.

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Deuteronomy 21:22–23 teaches that there was a divine curse placed on a hanged person:
The apostle Paul referred to this law in relationship to Jesus and His death on the cross. In Galatians 3:13 we read, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’” (ESV). Jesus was cursed for us, hanging on the cross as a substitute for our sins. The law in the Mosaic economy was a foreshadowing of the redemption of man.

Another interesting detail is that the cross of Christ was sometimes referred to in Jewish contexts as a “tree.” Acts 5:30 states, “The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree” (ESV). Acts 10:39 says, “They put him to death by hanging him on a tree” (ESV). See also Acts 13:29.
Why is there a curse associated with hanging on a tree? | GotQuestions.org

disciple Clint said:

Deuteronomy 21:22–23 teaches that there was a divine curse placed on a hanged person:
The apostle Paul referred to this law in relationship to Jesus and His death on the cross. In Galatians 3:13 we read, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’” (ESV). Jesus was cursed for us, hanging on the cross as a substitute for our sins. The law in the Mosaic economy was a foreshadowing of the redemption of man.

Another interesting detail is that the cross of Christ was sometimes referred to in Jewish contexts as a “tree.” Acts 5:30 states, “The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree” (ESV). Acts 10:39 says, “They put him to death by hanging him on a tree” (ESV). See also Acts 13:29.
Why is there a curse associated with hanging on a tree? | GotQuestions.org

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Parallels or analogous references do not imply an act was decreed. David spoke of being betrayed by his friend and Christ related this to his betrayal by Judas. It does not mean that David was referring to Judas.

Clare73 said:

However, the Bible knows nothing of a "permissive" will of God (Exodus 4:21; Exodus 9:16; 1 Samuel 18:10; 2 Samuel 24:1, 2 Samuel 24:10; 1 Kings 22:23; Job 12:16; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 4:25).
The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey, but disobeys, and
the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Deuteronomy 29:29),
and which is always done (Isaiah 46:10-11).

The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Exodus 4:11b, Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:7; 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 1 Kings 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 53:10, 54:16; Jeremiah 44:27-28; Lamentations 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 10:29; John 9:2-3; Revelation 17:17).
The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Isaiah 53:10; Daniel 11:36; Acts 2:23, 3:18, 4:28, 13:48),
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

The Bible knows nothing of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2 Chronicles 20:6; Job 9:12, Job 42:2; Isaiah 14:27; Daniel 4:35),
nor of a God whose plans are conditioned or determined by (Exodus 9:16, Acts 4:28) the actions of men,
nor who sustains loss because of (John 6:37; Acts 13:48) the actions of men.
The Bible knows only a God who ordains or decrees (not permits) everything (Lamentations 3:37),
down to the last detail (Psalms 50:11, Psalms 139:16, Psalms 147:4; Matthew 10:30).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.

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As I said before if God controls everything then God is responsible for my sins, where in the bible does it say that God causes or condones sin?

Greg Cheney said:

Parallels or analogous references do not imply an act was decreed. David spoke of being betrayed by his friend and Christ related this to his betrayal by Judas. It does not mean that David was referring to Judas.

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David was obviously a type for Jesus. And the passage in the O.T. referring to being hung on a tree is a foreshadowing of the crucifixion.

disciple Clint said:

David was obviously a type for Jesus. And the passage in the O.T. referring to being hung on a tree is a foreshadowing of the crucifixion.

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One can take their Christocentric view too far and read things into matters that are clearly analogous and get the OT wrong because they see a shadow in everything. Their "spiritualization" of the OT goes too far. John Goldingay explains this in one of his volumes. Parallel fulfillments are when the scriptures are applied to a situation because of its similarity, though the original passage was not specifically about that event.