I just lied to someone.

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,124
2,188
54
Northeast
✟177,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Goodness how is 1 Samuel 16 lying? There is no lie there at all. Samuel went to offer sacrifice just as God told him to do. He just did not tell Saul that he was also going to anoint David as King so there is no lie here at all. There is no justification for sin in all of the bible. Lying is a sin and to try and say that God is telling the prophet to lie is a misrepresentation of scripture.
Hi LGW, long time, no interact :) good to hear from you again.

I agree that it's not technically a lie. But it's not the whole truth, either.

Samuel isn't really going to Jesse to sacrifice, he's going to anoint a king. While he is there to anoint a king, he's going to sacrifice, yes.

So to relate it to the OP, we can stretch the "I don't know who" to its fullest sense. Does anyone really know themselves?

I think there's a scripture about The heart is more deceitful than anything else, who can know it?
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,124
2,188
54
Northeast
✟177,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Samuel did that which the Lord spoke, and came to Bethlehem. The elders of the city came to meet him trembling, and said, “Do you come peaceably?”

5 He said, “Peaceably; I have come to sacrifice to the Lord. Sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice.” He sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice.
____________
That's gotta count as at least a fib, in my book. He's misleading government officials.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Greg Cheney
Upvote 0

BPPLEE

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
9,542
3,371
60
Montgomery
✟136,997.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The topic isn't about justifying sin. It's about dogmatism. For example the experts in the law dogmatically accused Jesus of sinning.
If he can live by the standards he is espousing he is the most perfect man since Jesus
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hi LGW, long time, no interact :) good to hear from you again.

I agree that it's not technically a lie. But it's not the whole truth, either.

Samuel isn't really going to Jesse to sacrifice, he's going to anoint a king. While he is there to anoint a king, he's going to sacrifice, yes.

So to relate it to the OP, we can stretch the "I don't know who" to its fullest sense. Does anyone really know themselves?

I think there's a scripture about The heart is more deceitful than anything else, who can know it?
Hello Leaf, there is no scripture anywhere in the bible that says we can tell lies. That claim is not biblical. Like I said earlier, God did not tell the prophet to lie. Samuel just did not tell King Saul that he was going to anoint David. To claim that God told the prophet to lie is not biblical or supported anywhere in scriptures. Lying is a sin according to the bible.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,124
2,188
54
Northeast
✟177,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello Leaf, there is no scripture anywhere in the bible that says we can tell lies. That claim is not biblical. Like I said earlier, God did not tell the prophet to lie. Samuel just did not tell King Saul that he was going to anoint David. To claim that God told the prophet to lie is not biblical or supported anywhere in scriptures. Lying is a sin according to the bible.
If we take a deeper look at the scriptures, I don't think that holds up.

We may wish to consider this:
What is the reason Samuel is going to Bethlehem?

________________________
We could consider also the story of David illegally eating the showbread. Jesus presents the story in a positive light. I believe the commandments are always in service to humans, not the other way around.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
If we take a deeper look at the scriptures, I don't think that holds up.

We may wish to consider this:
What is the reason Samuel is going to Bethlehem?

________________________
We could consider also the story of David illegally eating the showbread. Jesus presents the story in a positive light. I believe the commandments are always in service to humans, not the other way around.

Yes if we take a deeper look at the scriptures what you posted is not biblical. God did not tell the prophet to lie and there is not one scripture in all the bible that says lying is no longer sin *1 John 3:4.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,124
2,188
54
Northeast
✟177,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Leviticus 19
“‘You shall not steal.

“‘You shall not lie.

“‘You shall not deceive one another.

Strong's Hebrew: 8266. שָׁקַר (shaqar) -- to do or deal falsely

Strong's Hebrew: 3584. כָּחַשׁ (kachash) -- to disappoint, deceive, fail, grow lean

Since we are in the philosophy and ethics section, I think it is reasonable to talk about the difference between lying and deceiving.

As I see it, the difference is that you can say something that is technically not a lie but is still deceptive.

Samuel intentionally misled the elders of Bethlehem, and by extension, the king. The OP intentionally misled the probably-mentally-ill stone collector.

If one was technically a lie and the other was not, does that really make a difference in terms of ethics? I don't think it does.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Greg Cheney
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,639
12,105
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Kind of a weird story. I work near a waterfront and railroad property. Another employee saw someone placing fairly big beach rocks near the railroad tracks. We picked them up and dumped them into the water with the other rocks already there. The other employee was concerned he might put the rocks on the tracks or use them to smash something.

So the rock man shows up again about ten minutes later, carrying another rock, and asked me what happened to the other rocks he left there. He was pretty agitated.

I told him twice "I don't know what you're talking about".

I suspect he was probably mentally ill. We get a lot of mentally ill folks going through the area.

So did I sin by lying to him to defuse the situation?

There are other situations a person could face that would parallel what you were dealing with.

Try this:
A guy pulls out a knife and demands all your money. You pull out a cheap backup wallet (with only $5 in it) you carry for this type of situation and give it to him. Then he says, "Is this ALL your money"? Do you owe him the truth? Is it a sin to say "yes" so he doesn't get your real wallet with your ID with your home address on it, along with everything else?

Or how about this: You come home and are about to enter your house. You have a keypad to punch in 5 digits to disarm your security system on the wall. A crook pops out from behind the bushes and demands your code to disarm the system so he can get into your house with you (and the rest of your family inside). If you give him the correct code, you and your family will have to deal with a dangerous situation in your home. If you give him the wrong code and he enters it, the police will be notified. Do you tell the truth and give him the correct code? Or would it be a sin to give him the wrong one?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Leviticus 19
“‘You shall not steal.

“‘You shall not lie.

“‘You shall not deceive one another.

Strong's Hebrew: 8266. שָׁקַר (shaqar) -- to do or deal falsely

Strong's Hebrew: 3584. כָּחַשׁ (kachash) -- to disappoint, deceive, fail, grow lean

Since we are in the philosophy and ethics section, I think it is reasonable to talk about the difference between lying and deceiving.

As I see it, the difference is that you can say something that is technically not a lie but is still deceptive.

Samuel intentionally misled the elders of Bethlehem, and by extension, the king. The OP intentionally misled the probably-mentally-ill stone collector.

If one was technically a lie and the other was not, does that really make a difference in terms of ethics? I don't think it does.
According to the scriptures, lying is sin and we should not seek to justify sin but simply seek God's forgiveness when we sin. Sorry but I do not believe anything you have provided here says it is ok to lie and sin. A lie is saying things we know to be not true with intent to deceive. Your trying to argue that God told Samuel to lie. That is not biblical or supported in the scriptures at all. Samuel was a prophet of Israel that went to offer sacrifice as God told Him to do which is what he did. Just because Samuel did not mention to Saul that he was also going to anoint David as King is not a lie. I personally do not believe your interpretation of the scripture that God told Samuel to lie and do not believe it is supported in the scriptures, so we will agree to disagree.

Take Care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Freth

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2020
1,505
1,823
Midwest, USA
✟372,180.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Jesus speaking in John 8 answers the question.

John 8:42-47

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Jesus took a hard stance against lying of any kind.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,124
2,188
54
Northeast
✟177,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
According to the scriptures, lying is sin and we should not seek to justify sin but simply seek God's forgiveness when we sin. Sorry but I do not believe anything you have provided here says it is ok to lie and sin. A lie is saying things we know to be not true with intent to deceive. Your trying to argue that God told Samuel to lie. That is not biblical or supported in the scriptures at all. Samuel was a prophet of Israel that went to offer sacrifice as God told Him to do which is what he did. Just because Samuel did not mention to Saul that he was also going to anoint David as King is not a lie. I personally do not believe your interpretation of the scripture that God told Samuel to lie and do not believe it is supported in the scriptures, so we will agree to disagree.

Take Care.
I already agreed that Samuel does not technically lie. We agree on that.

Did Samuel deceive?
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,124
2,188
54
Northeast
✟177,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus speaking in John 8 answers the question.

John 8:42-47

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Jesus took a hard stance against lying of any kind.
Jesus took a hard stand for the truth.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Is a half-truth ethical?
 
Upvote 0

Greg Cheney

Active Member
Jun 27, 2022
163
46
Alaska
✟16,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4. Lying is breaking God's 9th commandment *Exodus 20:16. Therefore lying is sin. There is really nothing to argue about here if we believe the scriptures.

The Bible says thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. There are several specifics in this verse worth unpacking.

Also, did Rahab sin when she lied and told the government officials that the Hebrew spies had gone out another way, when in fact they were being hidden in her home? Would allowing harm to be brought to them be less immoral to you than telling a falsehood?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The Bible says thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. There are several specifics in this verse worth unpacking.
Also, did Rahab sin when she lied and told the government officials that the Hebrew spies had gone out another way, when in fact they were being hidden in her home? Would allowing harm to be brought to them be less immoral to you than telling a falsehood?
Hi Greg nice to meet you. This has already been discussed here in post # 51; 52; 55; 57; 59; 61; 63; 65 linked. Your welcome to follow the discussion through.No where in the entire bible is Rahab commended for lying. According to the scriptures, lying is a sin just like breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments is a sin and just as not believing and following what God's Word says. *1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20; James 2:10-11; Romans 14:23. We should not try and make excuses for sin. We are better off just seeking God's forgiveness.

Take Care
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Greg Cheney

Active Member
Jun 27, 2022
163
46
Alaska
✟16,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi Greg nice to meet you. This has already been discussed here in post # 51; 52; 55; 57; 59; 61; 63; 65 linked. Your welcome to follow the discussion through.No where in the entire bible is Rahab commended for lying. According to the scriptures, lying is a sin just like breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments is a sin and just as not believing and following what God's Word says. *1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20; James 2:10-11; Romans 14:23. We should not try and make excuses for sin. We are better off just seeking God's forgiveness.

Take Care

I simply disagree. The Hebrew midwives lied to Pharaoh and the Bible says that God dealt well with them. While not commending them, he also did not condemn them, and the same goes for Rahab.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Greg Cheney

Active Member
Jun 27, 2022
163
46
Alaska
✟16,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry Greg I have no idea what your talking about here.

It's simple. When the unjust aggressors asked if the spies were present, silence would tip them off that something is afoot. It would've resulted in their deaths. Lying is generally wrong, but when used to protect someone from harm, I believe God cares more about their well-being than the words you use. I realize this is not a new argument, and I respect that you have an opinion, but many saints of the past would not agree with you. In my opinion, your responses should involve more critical thinking, even if you still hold to your interpretation of this moral dilemma.
 
Upvote 0

Greg Cheney

Active Member
Jun 27, 2022
163
46
Alaska
✟16,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
According to the scriptures, lying is sin and we should not seek to justify sin but simply seek God's forgiveness when we sin. Sorry but I do not believe anything you have provided here says it is ok to lie and sin. A lie is saying things we know to be not true with intent to deceive. Your trying to argue that God told Samuel to lie. That is not biblical or supported in the scriptures at all. Samuel was a prophet of Israel that went to offer sacrifice as God told Him to do which is what he did. Just because Samuel did not mention to Saul that he was also going to anoint David as King is not a lie. I personally do not believe your interpretation of the scripture that God told Samuel to lie and do not believe it is supported in the scriptures, so we will agree to disagree.

Take Care.

God condoned a message from a lying spirit in 1 Kings 22. Did God intentionally deceive someone that was his enemy?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Greg Cheney

Active Member
Jun 27, 2022
163
46
Alaska
✟16,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus speaking in John 8 answers the question.

John 8:42-47

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Jesus took a hard stance against lying of any kind.

Did God take a hard stance against lying when he condoned the lying spirit to deliver a message in 1 Kings 22?
 
Upvote 0