Does God predestine sin?

Strong in Him said:

He KNOWS all the small details - he doesn't micromanage us to make sure that they all happen according to what he has decided.

Moses, Joshua, Elijah and all the prophets told the people; choose who you will serve, decide which side you're on. If God is God follow him; if Baal is god, follow him.
Jesus called people to follow him; he didn't make them. He did not drag the rich young ruler back, nor did he force the disciples who walked away to turn back to him, John 6:66.
The message of all the prophets, and Jesus, was "repent, turn back to God, choose life etc or face the consequences". If you obey God's laws you will be blessed, if you repent and receive Jesus you will have eternal life.

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As I have said, God's perfect control and man's responsibility and choice are not opposed to each other, but are harmonious with each other. It is a paradox that we will not fully understand in this life. The things that we willfully commit was already predetermined beforehand, and that's a huge mystery.

renniks said:

Sovereignty isn't the same as control.

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Says nowhere in the Scriptures.

TedT said:

Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because this is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone. This 'before life' love is expressed in HIS loving election of some to salvation and HIS not loving others as expressed in their being passed over for election to salvation before the foundation of the world, ie, earthly life.

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Or, God loved some before life because He simply wanted to? Was there anything on the part of Israel that God decided to choose them to become His people at that time? No, for Moses tells them in Deuteronomy 7:7-8, "The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers". God did not have to choose Abraham, He could have chosen anyone. His freedom to choose is perfectly justified in itself, because He is God.

The same is for us. There is nothing on our part that moved God to choose us, and if there was then we have something to boast about.

TedT said:

First, they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful, just and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.

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Why do you think there *has* to be a reason? Is not God greater than we? Are not His thoughts and ways higher than ours? God did not have to create anything, for example. God is perfectly glorified and content in Himself. He does not need the worship of men and angels. The fact that He did create does not necessarily imply that there had to be a reason, or even a need, He just did. If you can agree with that, I don't see why you can't follow that line of thought consistently with His other actions. It seems that your argument is more of an emotional appeal, because it doesn't seem fair.

We defend the aseity of God, but no one asks why God exists at all, because the answer is that God is His own cause and reason. He does not depend on something outside of Himself to determine His existence, and the same goes for His plans. God is independent from us, and can do anything without our permission or acceptance. God is not a small sovereign. God is who He is.

TedT said:

Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential of understanding and appreciation.

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Nay, there is no implication that God *needs* the presence of evil to bring about good, and I am not even saying that. Rather, God, who is all-wise, all-powerful and all-good, obviously allowed the fall to occur, and worked through it for His own redemptive purposes. A wicked world exists, and God who created it is perfect. We cannot deny these two facts, so there must be some correlation with both that make both necessary, or else you present god as a struggling beggar with his own creation, pleading with men like undisciplining parents of spoiled rebellious children. God is not holding a broken egg, hoping that some of it won't slip through His hands.

Jonaitis said:

If an action affects another action, then all actions eventually return to the first action and actor. Think about that for a moment. Everything that has happened, is happening and will happen flows from the chain of events that God began. Cause and effect show that everything has been predetermined by former actions, follow that backward to the very source and you have God! He began the chain, and knew it.

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Sure, but I contend that HIS first Sovereign act of creation was to create every person in HIS image, that is, able to be a proper bride for HIM, with a free will ability to make moral decisions and an equal ability and opportunity 1. to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour or 2. to put their faith in HIM being a liar and therefore a false god, driven by an evil megalomania, the unforgivable sin.

The elect chose their FATES by faith, our unproven hope in HIM being our GOD and our Saviour from all sin. Then, after we chose to rebel against HIS command, He gave us predetermined LIVES in the world as the sinful people of His kingdom, Matthew 13:36-39, to fulfill HIS election promise to us to make us marriage ready.

double post, sigh.

Jonaitis said:

Why do you think there *has* to be a reason? Is not God greater than we?

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???

Really?

HIS greatness, HIS sovereignty does not allow HIM to act either unreasonably or even without a reason especially when billions go to hell on HIS decision!!!

There is one reason in every decision GOD ever made - it pleased HIM to do so! Ps 135:6 The LORD does all that pleases Him in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and in all their depths. implies HE ONLY does what pleases HIM!

Your inference that HE needs no reason to damn anyone does not fit into HIM acting only for HIS pleasure...ie, that HE damned billions for no reason but that it pleased HIM to do so...???

Well, this is the logic of your inference but it contradicts
Ezek 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live? which says straight out that GOD takes NO pleasure in the death ie damnation, of the wicked so HE cannot have damned anyone for no reason nor for any reason outside HIS own pleasure!

My implication is that He must have been forced into condemning them to banishment in the outer darkness by their free will decision to be HIS eternal enemies and therefore eternally unfit to ever be HIS bride and when fully leavend in evil, an eternal danger to HIS Church, HIS Bride!

HIS pleasure is to save HIS children from sin.

HIS pleasure is to condemn to banishment those who broke the family bond by choosing to sin the unforgivable sin knowing HIS warnings that it would make them eternally HIS enemies, outside of HIS loving grace forever:
Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish as a perverse and crooked generation.
GOD did not corrupt them - they corrupted themselves.

HIS pleasure is to love HIS Bride and to keep her safe from the predations of the eternally evil reprobate who are fully leavened with evil, an evil that threatens HIS Bride and HIS heavenly marriage by its existence.

Cockalorum said:

Since God is sovereign and everything created is for a purpose (John 1:3, Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16, Romans 9:18) according to his will and for his pleasure (Psalms 115:3, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 26:39) and God knows all things and everything that will ever happen. (Isaiah 46:9-10)

God is the author (Isaiah 45:7) does he use sin of the righteous to bring us closer to him? (Romans 8:28) we know that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 would this mean that God predetermines/predestines sin as well according to his will? (Genesis 50:20)

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You've began with the wrong premise. Begin first with Christ, and also end with Christ.

No, God did not predetermine/predestine sin. That would make Him a liar, a hypocrite, and a sinner.

-CryptoLutheran

Cockalorum said:

God is all knowing and all powerful, I think he would be able to know what would happen when he created the universe. everything works together according to his will and good pleasure

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None of which means He predestined sin.

The problem isn't saying God is sovereign, of course He is. The problem is making that the basis of theology instead of Jesus. Philosophy isn't how we understand God, Jesus Christ is how we understand God. So the starting place of theology is not God's sovereignty; the starting place of theology is Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Jonaitis said:

If God is not in control of all things, God is not God. If God is not sovereign in all things, then we must conclude that some things are new to His knowledge.

"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases." - Psalm 115:3

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4

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God gave man and the angles free will, God does not cause everything, if He did cause everything then God would be responsible for every sin committed by man which means that it would be totally unjust for God to judge anyone as guilty of their sins and it would also mean that God causes sin and therefor indirectly is guilty of sin Himself, obviously that is not possible.

Jonaitis said:

Where in the Scriptures does God ever say that He just foresees events?

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God is omniscient, he knows all things.
It was you who quoted Scriptures about the Lord guiding our steps and knowing our plans; you also asked if I thought that God doesn't know the details. Now you're asking where it says that he does this. ??

Jonaitis said:

For the manifestation of His glory.

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The scenario I suggested does not glorify God.
To create a universe which is very good, to say, "I need man to sin because I have already planned to send my Son to suffer for that sin", would be cruel - if not foolish. Why mess up something perfect so that your Son can go through rejection, torture and immense pain to put it right again?

If you heard of someone who took several days to create a masterpiece of art, making sure every detail was just right, and then throwing black paint over the whole thing, wouldn't you want to ask them why they had done that? And if they said, "so that I can publicly clean it all off again and restore it to how it was before I decided to throw the paint over it", wouldn't you at least question their sanity?
I don't know about you, but those actions would not inspire me to think, "this artist is amazing, I must become one of his fans."

Jonaitis said:

Fair? If you want God to be fair, He could have left Adam and his posterity (including you and me) to perish eternally without a Savior. This would have been perfectly "fair" and just. God is under no obligation to the creature. The fact that God sent His Son to save sinners is an undeserving privilege on His part.

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I know it is.

What I asked was, if God determined, or predestined, that Adam would sin and Adam did sin; he was doing what God wanted and following God's plan.
So why punish him?

Jonaitis said:

You quoted 1 Peter 1:19-20, but then contradicted it after. How was Jesus chosen from the foundation of the world, if that not includes before Adam's creation?

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You didn't read the bit before; God provided a Saviour before we knew we needed one.
God sees all things. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Before he even created them, he knew that human beings would sin against, and disobey him. So he had a plan for that before it happened. Prevenient grace; grace that came bore sin. Before we call, God answers; before we sin, God has a solution.

I wasn't contradicting the verse I quoted; of course Jesus was chosen before Adam's sin.
I am saying that God KNEW that Adam was going to sin. He did not make Adam sin, nor plan that he should do so; he just knew that it was going to happen.

The prophets knew that the Israelites would be taken into exile for that sin and they knew that God would restore them again afterwards. They did not cause the people to sin, and they did not make the Babylonians invade the nation and destroy the temple; they just knew that it was going to happen.
They knew Jesus was going to come, live, minister and die. They didn't make it happen; they just foretold that it would. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and Peter would deny him. He didn't make them do those things; he just knew that they would.
God knew that Adam would sin and mess up his perfect world, so he already had a plan for when he did. Like you said, Jesus was not God's back up plan.
But that is far from saying that God caused Adam to sin, or needed him to do so.

Jonaitis said:

As I have said, God's perfect control and man's responsibility and choice are not opposed to each other, but are harmonious with each other. It is a paradox that we will not fully understand in this life. The things that we willfully commit was already predetermined beforehand, and that's a huge mystery.

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And I'm saying that the things that we do are KNOWN beforehand, but not predetermined.

Was it predetermined that Hitler would destroy thousands of Jews?
Did God determine that the 2 world wars, 9/11, Iraq and every act of violence we have ever known would take place? If he did; if he had decided that these things must happen, then a) he is very cruel, and b) anyone who does anything to stop wars, dictators and so on, is sinning.
If God had predetermined that Saddam Hussain would cause all that misery, then the men who announced, "Gentlemen, we've got him" were sinning against God - preventing Saddam from doing that which God had decided he should do.

disciple Clint said:

God gave man and the angles free will, God does not cause everything, if He did cause everything then God would be responsible for every sin committed by man which means that it would be totally unjust for God to judge anyone as guilty of their sins and it would also mean that God causes sin and therefor indirectly is guilty of sin Himself, obviously that is not possible.

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The principle of causality logically leads to full determinism. Your present thoughts, feelings, actions and words were determined by some outside influence. You think that you are in control, but you are only unknowingly playing the game of cause and effect. You are only doing that which is influencing you right now, but ignorant of that, you think it is completely arbitrary. Every event is linked to this chain of causality, and who do you think made the first move? When you realize this, then you realize every detail of life is perfect. We cannot really change anything, we can only flow with it. Even when we think we can change something, even that particular action was not without an influence. Your whole life consists of reactions to things outside of yourself. This is so logically true, there is no way to disprove it.

The Scriptures are clear that God is responsible for everything, even the smallest details of our lives. You can call that unjust, but there is a reason for everything. There was a reason for Hitler rising to power no less than there was a reason for Paul's beheading. Do you believe in biblical prophecy? How, if you don't believe that the future hasn't already been determined by God? Do you think God is only telling us what He sees in the future, and not showing us what He intends to do? Even if you think this, the principle of causality won't let God's omniscience be separated from His first action of actions that began this chain. God had set up the garden in Eden in such a way, including allowing the serpent in it, that would influence Adam's fall.

Strong in Him said:

And I'm saying that the things that we do are KNOWN beforehand, but not predetermined.

Was it predetermined that Hitler would destroy thousands of Jews?
Did God determine that the 2 world wars, 9/11, Iraq and every act of violence we have ever known would take place? If he did; if he had decided that these things must happen, then a) he is very cruel, and b) anyone who does anything to stop wars, dictators and so on, is sinning.
If God had predetermined that Saddam Hussain would cause all that misery, then the men who announced, "Gentlemen, we've got him" were sinning against God - preventing Saddam from doing that which God had decided he should do.

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Yes, God predetermined every detail of Hitler's life. Yes, God predetermined both world wars, 9/11 and every atrocity, because everything is connected. I sound like a hippy, but it is true from both a biblical and rational point of view. Everything is so well connected, typing this right now is blowing my mind the more I am thinking about it. There is a reason, a cause, an influence for every present action, event and circumstance. Every evil and good is perfect.

Jonaitis said:

The principle of causality logically leads to full determinism. Your present thoughts, feelings, actions and words were determined by some outside influence. You think that you are in control, but you are only unknowingly playing the game of cause and effect. You are only doing that which is influencing you right now, but ignorant of that, you think it is completely arbitrary. Every event is linked to this chain of causality, and who do you think made the first move? When you realize this, then you realize every detail of life is perfect. We cannot really change anything, we can only flow with it. Even when we think we can change something, even that particular action was not without an influence. Your whole life consists of reactions to things outside of yourself. This is so logically true, there is no way to disprove it.

The Scriptures are clear that God is responsible for everything, even the smallest details of our lives. You can call that unjust, but there is a reason for everything. There was a reason for Hitler rising to power no less than there was a reason for Paul's beheading. Do you believe in biblical prophecy? How, if you don't believe that the future hasn't already been determined by God? Do you think God is only telling us what He sees in the future, and not showing us what He intends to do? Even if you think this, the principle of causality won't let God's omniscience be separated from His first action of actions that began this chain. God had set up the garden in Eden in such a way, including allowing the serpent in it, that would influence Adam's fall.

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Once again that concept is going to make God responsible for all sin, obviously that is not the case. It will result in an unjust God who causes sin and then punishes people for sinning . Think about it.

disciple Clint said:

Once again that concept is going to make God responsible for all sin, obviously that is not the case. It will result in an unjust God who causes sin and then punishes people for sinning . Think about it.

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I am thinking about it, and what you saying doesn't logically make sense. Your whole life consists of reactions to outside influences. This is the principle of causality. You don't really make your own choices in life, you only make choices relative to their influences. God is responsible for sin, and the more you think about that, it does not present God in any negative light, because this is the way it was suppose to happen. This present moment is the execution of God's perfect purpose for creation from the beginning.

Jonaitis said:

I am thinking about it, and what you saying doesn't logically make sense. Your whole life consists of reactions to outside influences. This is the principle of causality. You don't really make your own choices in life, you only make choices relative to their influences. God is responsible for sin, and the more you think about that, it does not present God in any negative light, because this is the way it was suppose to happen. This present moment is the execution of God's perfect purpose for creation from the beginning.

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God is holy, God does not sin, God hates sin therefore God does not cause sin.

disciple Clint said:

God is holy, God does not sin, God hates sin therefore God does not cause sin.

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This is really interesting. You are making some good points that is biblical, yet logically makes no sense. I am actually shocked. I'll have to get back to you on that, because now I am beginning to question more about what exactly have I been believing. You have helped me, friend, thank you. I sincerely mean that.

Jonaitis said:

Yes, God predetermined every detail of Hitler's life. Yes, God predetermined both world wars, 9/11 and every atrocity, because everything is connected. I sound like a hippy, but it is true from both a biblical and rational point of view. Everything is so well connected, typing this right now is blowing my mind the more I am thinking about it. There is a reason, a cause, an influence for every present action, event and circumstance. Every evil and good is perfect.

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So you didn't choose to respond to this post, it was decided for you?
You don't decide whether or not to put certain clothes on, it's all predetermined? That sounds a very insecure way of living - supposing God wants you to wear blue jeans and you wear black ones?
If sin is predetermined, then a person is blaming God for their wrongdoing - "It wasn't my fault; you decided that I should do this?"

God PLANNED that 9/11 would happen??