Does God predestine sin?

Strong in Him

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Let Scripture be our judge:

"I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps." - Jeremiah 10:23

"Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand." -Proverbs 19:21

"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."- Proverbs 16:9

God knows all things; I ssaid that.

To unfold His plan of redemption that is in Christ.

So God created a universe which he said was very good, Genesis 1:31, planned for mankind to sin and mess it up so that he could send his Son to suffer and reconcile us to himself again, and one day all things would be restored?

Why?
Why make sure that man sinned so that Christ suffered? Doesn't sound very loving towards his Son.
Why punish Adam and Eve for their sin when it was God's will that they did sin? Doesn't sound very fair.


Do you think that Jesus was a backup plan in case things went off kilter?

No, God provided a Saviour before we knew that we even needed one - prevenient grace.
Jesus was the Lamb chosen from the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20.
God knew that Adam would disobey him, that sin would come into the world, that humans would be unable to keep his law and in fact not be able to do anything to restore the broken relationship between God and man - so he did it. He had a plan to cover our sin before we sinned.

That doesn't mean he planned that Adam would sin, or that Adam had to sin because God had already decided to send Jesus and his plans couldn't be derailed.
 
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Strong in Him

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Do you think God is only the master designer of the bigger picture, and not all the details?

He KNOWS all the small details - he doesn't micromanage us to make sure that they all happen according to what he has decided.

Moses, Joshua, Elijah and all the prophets told the people; choose who you will serve, decide which side you're on. If God is God follow him; if Baal is god, follow him.
Jesus called people to follow him; he didn't make them. He did not drag the rich young ruler back, nor did he force the disciples who walked away to turn back to him, John 6:66.
The message of all the prophets, and Jesus, was "repent, turn back to God, choose life etc or face the consequences". If you obey God's laws you will be blessed, if you repent and receive Jesus you will have eternal life.
 
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BobRyan

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Since God is sovereign and everything created is for a purpose (John 1:3, Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16, Romans 9:18) according to his will and for his pleasure (Psalms 115:3, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 26:39) and God knows all things and everything that will ever happen. (Isaiah 46:9-10)

True... but knowing something will happen is not the same as ordaining or predestination. In Romans 8 - Predestine is an act of will , directing something as in ordaining and approving.

Rom 8:
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Compare to Isaiah 5:4 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"
 
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bling

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Since God is sovereign and everything created is for a purpose (John 1:3, Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16, Romans 9:18) according to his will and for his pleasure (Psalms 115:3, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 26:39) and God knows all things and everything that will ever happen. (Isaiah 46:9-10)

God is the author (Isaiah 45:7) does he use sin of the righteous to bring us closer to him? (Romans 8:28) we know that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 would this mean that God predetermines/predestines sin as well according to his will? (Genesis 50:20)
“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus God has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual and communicates to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, but knows everything that has happened already in the future as pure unchangeable history. It is like God at the end of time sends all human history back to himself at the beginning of time, it is information and not like God is living it twice or constantly.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.

To better address your question: If God decides to never ever create a person, then God knows exactly what that person did in the future, which is nothing, but God would not know any history of what that person did, since that person has no history (he/she never was a person and made no free will choices).
God does not like sin but does allow humans to sin because sin has purpose in helping humans in the fulfillment of their earthly objective.
 
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Cockcrow

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“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus God has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual and communicates to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, but knows everything that has happened already in the future as pure unchangeable history. It is like God at the end of time sends all human history back to himself at the beginning of time, it is information and not like God is living it twice or constantly.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.

To better address your question: If God decides to never ever create a person, then God knows exactly what that person did in the future, which is nothing, but God would not know any history of what that person did, since that person has no history (he/she never was a person and made no free will choices).
God does not like sin but does allow humans to sin because sin has purpose in helping humans in the fulfillment of their earthly objective.
the Bible teaches that God chose us first, not the other way around. If God looked to the future and chose people based on their own "free will choice" then that would mean that God would be doing man's will and not his will. The Bible is clear that God predestines or elects people based on his will, not based on works or anything that we did ourselves.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him we were also chosen as God's own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will,

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Now Romans 8:29 does say that "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." foreknow doesn't mean God looked to the future to see what choice we would make, as that would contradict the above verses. Yes he knew who his elect were and are but that is because he decreed it, he chose them first, not that we chose him based on our own free will.

If salvation were up to us we would never choose God without him first choosing us (John 6:44, Romans 3:10-12, Ephesians 2:8, Titus 3:5, Psalms 14:2-3, Isaiah 64:6)
 
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BBAS 64

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No. Humans have free will and have a choice whether or not to sin.

Good Day, Riley

not so sure that is always the case:

Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

God did not allow him to sin, so he could not (I kept you from sinning).

Clearly if he could stop it and does, then he allows it.


In Him,

Bill
 
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Cockcrow

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I AM NOT saying that man isn't responsible for their own sins, they absolutely are and the Bible teaches that we will all be held personally responsible and accountable, the wicked will be turned into hell, however we also do know that in all things God is in control and his will, will be done. (Romans 8:28, Proverbs 16:9, Proverbs 19:21, Isaiah 41:10)
 
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Strong in Him

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I AM NOT saying that man isn't responsible for their own sins, they absolutely are and the Bible teaches that we will all be held personally responsible and accountable, the wicked will be turned into hell, however we also do know that in all things God is in control and his will, will be done. (Romans 8:28, Proverbs 16:9, Proverbs 19:21, Isaiah 41:10)

So how could God hold anyone accountable for their sins if he predestined them and wanted them to happen in the first place?
 
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bling

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the Bible teaches that God chose us first, not the other way around. If God looked to the future and chose people based on their own "free will choice" then that would mean that God would be doing man's will and not his will. The Bible is clear that God predestines or elects people based on his will, not based on works or anything that we did ourselves.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him we were also chosen as God's own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will,

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Now Romans 8:29 does say that "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." foreknow doesn't mean God looked to the future to see what choice we would make, as that would contradict the above verses. Yes he knew who his elect were and are but that is because he decreed it, he chose them first, not that we chose him based on our own free will.

If salvation were up to us we would never choose God without him first choosing us (John 6:44, Romans 3:10-12, Ephesians 2:8, Titus 3:5, Psalms 14:2-3, Isaiah 64:6)
I never said: “We choose God first”. That would be an act of righteousness, honor, worthy of something and Holy which an unbelieving sinner cannot do. God chose to help all those just willing to humbly accept His help as pure charity. Those unbelieving sinners who wimp out, give up and surrender to their hated enemies, hoping beyond any logical reason for some undeserved charity from their hated enemy, God showers with unbelievable wonderful gifts (somewhat like the prodigal son).
 
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BBAS 64

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So how could God hold anyone accountable for their sins if he predestined them and wanted them to happen in the first place?

Good Day,

Because he is Holiness and Justice and they sinned.

In Him

Bill
 
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trophy33

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Since God is sovereign and everything created is for a purpose (John 1:3, Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16, Romans 9:18) according to his will and for his pleasure (Psalms 115:3, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 26:39) and God knows all things and everything that will ever happen. (Isaiah 46:9-10)

God is the author (Isaiah 45:7) does he use sin of the righteous to bring us closer to him? (Romans 8:28) we know that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 would this mean that God predetermines/predestines sin as well according to his will? (Genesis 50:20)
God predetermines (the term "predestination" means something different) sin only in the meaning that He permits it or directs it in the way He wants for His plan.

He is not the cause/author of sin, though.
 
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Strong in Him

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Good Day,

Because he is Holiness and Justice and they sinned.

Yes but if God predestined people to sin "according to his will" (see OP); if God decided that they would sin, how could he punish them for doing what he wanted?
 
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TedT

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how would you interpret those scriptures then?
In light of HIS Character and HIScPurpose of love and marriage which denies inherited sin, and supports our free will as an absolute necessity.

I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so any sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...

This implies that GOD would never not save anyone who could be saved to become HIS Bride, not for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would ever be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.

It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.


Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.

By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.
 
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TedT

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No. Humans have free will and have a choice whether or not to sin.
No free will for sinners!

Was Christ just babbling when He claimed "Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you that everyone practicing the sin is a slave of the sin." in Jn 8:34, etc.?

Choosing to sin enslaves the will, filling it with addictive enslaving desires: James 1:14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. This is why we cannot chose to have faith in Christ and so save ourselves but must rely upon HIS grace to give us faith.

Even knowledge of the truth cannot save us from our enslavement because we love sin more than the truth: Rom 1:18 to the end of the chapter.
 
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TedT

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so God isn't sovereign?
GOD's sovereignty SERVES HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS justice ...Sovereignty cannot override HIS attributes to make unrighteousness righteous, unlovingness to be loving nor injustice to be just.

This dubius rendering of theology denies any real understanding of GOD HIMself.
 
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TedT

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Yes, God did preordain evil for good.
HE ordained evil be USED for good among sinners.
HE did NOT create evil so good could be enhanced:

Predestination to Damnation before Creation Serves HIS Purpose?
Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because this is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone. This 'before life' love is expressed in HIS loving election of some to salvation and HIS not loving others as expressed in their being passed over for election to salvation before the foundation of the world, ie, earthly life.

The explanation goes something like this:

The loved ones' eternal joy is directly proportional to their knowledge, appreciation, of GOD and the wonderfulness of their salvation. Therefore an increase of good comes forth from the eternal damnation of some persons because by their damnation, that is, the outcome of Adam's decision to sin, and HIS "before life" decision not to love these persons, two types of eternal blessings supposedly occur for the rest.

First, a fuller appreciation of several of God's attributes is made possible, which opportunity wouldn't be possible if all lived forever, that is, if HE "before life" loved them all. These attributes are usually said to be HIS justness (retribution, wrath) holiness and omnipotence.

Secondly, the truth regarding the non-elect's end apart from Christ's salvation is made fully known, which full knowledge makes possible the fuller appreciation of HIS salvation, for this salvation (hence, HIS mercy too) would not be so fully appreciated without the graphic depiction of both states of after earthly life.

Others even go so far as to say that their damnation is absolutely necessary in order that the purpose of GOD be able to be fulfilled by HIS elect, and they offer this explanation:

In order to live in eternity with GOD, we must live fully in the truth, which necessity necessitates having a perfect appreciation of GOD's attributes and HIS salvation, and that this perfect appreciation by HIS elect creatures is made possible first, only through witnessing HIS triumph over and judgement upon HIS enemies, and second, only when HIS perfection and our life in Christ are contrasted with the complete imperfections of the damned and the end we would have had, had HE not saved us.

Now, these are very hard positions to hold, for they fail on many accounts.

First, they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful, just and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.

Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential of understanding and appreciation.

In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless [and the more sinful (or sick) the better].

Third, they both fail to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than the damnation of but one, since it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation, perfection and not the quantity of persons therein.

Fourthly, they both put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD, contrary to Christ's words about the value of each person in GOD's sight.

Well, since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for GOD's foreknowledge / forelove before the foundation of the world not including everyone, we are left with but two conclusions:

We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. [Aside: as I understand it, this is Calvin's position, his failure to understand this doctrine correctly.] GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to others, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest, is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before physical creation) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.
 
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Cockcrow

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GOD's sovereignty SERVES HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS justice ...Sovereignty cannot override HIS attributes to make unrighteousness righteous, unlovingness to be loving nor injustice to be just.

This dubius rendering of theology denies any real understanding of GOD HIMself.
I never said that about overriding Gods attributes, the user said No and I was wanting him to explain why, I never stated in OP that God isn't righteous, loving, and just he absolutely is.
 
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Jonaitis

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God knows all things; I said that.
Where in the Scriptures does God ever say that He just foresees events?
So God created a universe which he said was very good, Genesis 1:31, planned for mankind to sin and mess it up so that he could send his Son to suffer and reconcile us to himself again, and one day all things would be restored? Why?
For the manifestation of His glory. For example, Paul said this, "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory?" (Romans 9:22).
Doesn't sound very fair.
Fair? If you want God to be fair, He could have left Adam and his posterity (including you and me) to perish eternally without a Savior. This would have been perfectly "fair" and just. God is under no obligation to the creature. The fact that God sent His Son to save sinners is an undeserving privilege on His part.
No, God provided a Saviour before we knew that we even needed one - prevenient grace. Jesus was the Lamb chosen from the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20. God knew that Adam would disobey him, that sin would come into the world, that humans would be unable to keep his law and in fact not be able to do anything to restore the broken relationship between God and man - so he did it. He had a plan to cover our sin before we sinned. That doesn't mean he planned that Adam would sin, or that Adam had to sin because God had already decided to send Jesus and his plans couldn't be derailed.
You quoted 1 Peter 1:19-20, but then contradicted it after. How was Jesus chosen from the foundation of the world, if that not includes before Adam's creation?
 
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