Freewill vitally important to Christian Doctrine

FutureAndAHope · Jun 16, 2022

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,

To err is human, you are both mistaken IMHO.

Could you take a stab at the questions?

I would like to understand how you understand the Mat 23 verse that you have taken out of the context here.

What makes you think this has any thing to do with Salvation what in the context leads you to that?
Who or what is Jerusalem?
Who or what are her Children?

In Him,

Bill

Ok bill, the context of the passage is Jesus has just been stating how the Parasees and others in the past had rejected and killed the prophets. He then says that He had longed to gather them, as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were not willing. Jerusalem in that case is the city, her children are the people that have lived in the city.

Mat 23:1-39 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.' Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.' Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'BLESSED is HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' "

BBAS 64 · Jun 16, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
Ok bill, the context of the passage is Jesus has just been stating how the Parasees and others in the past had rejected and killed the prophets. He then says that He had longed to gather them, as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were not willing. Jerusalem in that case is the city, her children are the people that have lived in the city.

Mat 23:1-39 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.' Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.' Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'BLESSED is HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' "

Good Day,

Thanks!

So the city killed the the prophets and stones them... the city does that?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

You would agree that the children ( People who lived in the city were the ones Jesus tried to gather)?

How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

But the unwillingness of the city (the city has free-will) he was unable, what about the free will of her children?

but you were not willing!

Where is the child's free-will and how does it function?

Do you really believe that no one in the city of Jerusalem has ever been saved, because of the free-will of a city.... so the "thing" city has free-will?

Help me understand please

In Him,

Bill

Clare73 · Jun 16, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
No but Jesus specifically said that He would dig around the tree and fertilize it. This indicates God making an actual effort to save the tree, not just giving it time.

To make the parable a true analogy of "tree land," where weak trees don't get better with just time, they must be assisted, the tree is assisted, but with no guarantee that the assistance will actually remedy the situation.

BNR32FAN said:
Jesus is in the parable and so is The Father. Who does the vineyard keeper represent and who does the owner of the vineyard represent?

Okay. . .that works.

Clare73 · Jun 16, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
If that were the case then He would have made this statement.
“and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””

Not according to Matthew 13:28-30.

‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
This parable is very similar to John 15:2 where The Father cuts off the branches who are IN CHRIST that don’t bear fruit.
These branches could not be in Christ unless the have been drawn by The Father.

The gospel presents those in the kingdom who are not of the kingdom.
They are tares.
Tares look like wheat and act like wheat, but in the time of trial, they turn out to be not wheat.

Time will tell if the tree that was dug around and fed was wheat or tare.

In John 15:6 again there’s an example of those who do not remain in Christ and Jesus even says to His 11 faithful apostles in verse 7 “IF you remain in Me”. These are all indications that God has drawn these people to Christ and they still choose to turn away. Romans 2:4-5 God is urging these people to repent yet they are being stubborn and refusing. Romans 11 the Gentiles who were grafted into the olive tree (God’s covenant) can be cut off and even grafted back in again. So these verses do not represent the tares who were planted among the wheat by satan because satan isn’t able to graft anyone into Christ. Your explanation here is merely an assumption that has no scriptural support. The scriptures do not tell us that Jesus was trying to fertilize a rotten tree or why he would fertilize a rotten tree. Those are assumptions. The scriptures do however repeatedly show God trying to save the reprobate. John 5:34 is another example where Jesus specifically says to the men who were seeking to kill Him “these things I say to you so that you may be saved.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 16, 2022

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,

Thanks!

So the city killed the the prophets and stones them... the city does that?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

You would agree that the children ( People who lived in the city were the ones Jesus tried to gather)?

How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

But the unwillingness of the city (the city has free-will) he was unable, what about the free will of her children?

but you were not willing!

Where is the child's free-will and how does it function?

Do you really believe that no one in the city of Jerusalem has ever been saved, because of the free-will of a city.... so the "thing" city has free-will?

Help me understand please

In Him,

Bill

Bill, you are overcomplicating a simple verse of scripture. Jesus said he wished to gather the city's children, when he speaks of free will, he is referring to those disobedient among the children. He is obviously not talking about the city, as you mentioned a city can't have free will.

childeye 2 · Jun 16, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
Bill, you are overcomplicating a simple verse of scripture. Jesus said he wished to gather the city's children, when he speaks of free will, he is referring to those disobedient among the children. He is obviously not talking about the city, as you mentioned a city can't have free will.

If I may point out, the free will you are describing is an equivocation. Please note that if Jesus had said oh Jerusalem, you were willing to be gathered, it would still be construed as proof of such a free will. The proof that Jesus considered such a free will as not viable, is where Jesus stated you cannot serve two masters.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 17, 2022

childeye 2 said:
If I may point out, the free will you are describing is an equivocation. Please note that if Jesus had said oh Jerusalem, you were willing to be gathered, it would still be construed as proof of such a free will. The proof that Jesus considered such a free will as not viable, is where Jesus stated you cannot serve two masters.

The fact is Jesus said, "I longed to gather your children, as a hen her chicks", which shows He in His heart wanted to gather and bless them, the lack of willingness was not God's but mans'. The doctrine you are ascribing to says God never wanted some, he just chose a select few. The fact is:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

God is not angry with everybody, only those who suppress His truth, and deny His love, so they can sin. Even if He, God, was angry, His mercy overcomes judgment.

childeye 2 · Jun 17, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
The fact is Jesus said, "I longed to gather your children, as a hen her chicks", which shows He in His heart wanted to gather and bless them, the lack of willingness was not God's but mans'.

I sincerely appreciate your response. Sometimes people just ignore what others say if they feel challenged.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. I don't disagree that it's a fact that Jesus said, I longed to gather your children, as a hen gathers her chicks. I also don't disagree that Jesus expressed that they were unwilling to be gathered.
All of that is clear to me.

My point, which is not being recognized, is to show that when this scripture is used as an example of "free will", the term 'free will' becomes an equivocation. Why? Because even "if" Jesus had said they "were willing to be gathered" instead of "unwilling to be gathered", it would still qualify as a free will under that definition of a free will.

Hence this scripture is not evidence of a free will, since it only shows a will that is unwilling to be gathered. Any inference that they could have willed to be gathered is an assumption and therefore a circular reasoning. And this is why I pointed out that Jesus expressly says that we cannot serve two masters, indicating that there are higher powers of darkness and Light and that we cannot serve both, but we will be servants to either one or the other in the moral/immoral context. We do yield ourselves to one or the other as you say, but let's be clear that the powers of darkness rely on deception.

even if The doctrine you are ascribing to says God never wanted some, he just chose a select few. The fact is:

I'm going to cut this off mid statement for just a moment, because I don't want you to misunderstand me here. I never mentioned anything about God wanting some and that He just chose a select few. You 're getting ahead of me in assuming what I might say about this. Having said that, let's now continue the statement:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

God is not angry with everybody, only those who suppress His truth, and deny His love, so they can sin. Even if He, God, was angry, His mercy overcomes judgment.

Respectfully, you're misinterpreting Romans 1:18 if you mean to imply that it's referring to some men, and not all men. It becomes clear that Romans 1:18 applies to all men in Romans 2:1, because it is qualified as such when applied to any man who judges another man as if Romans 1:18 doesn't apply to them.

Romans 2:1
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Also verified in Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

And corroborated in 1 John.
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The whole point of these scriptures is to show that mankind cannot save himself from sinfulness through his ability to make a choice. Why? So that no flesh may glory, and thereby only God alone is Glorified.

Please note this true testimony on how I rely upon the Holy Spirit to convict me of sin:

I was driving on the highway when a car abruptly cut in front of me and I got angry at the driver and I started calling them stupid. Just then the Holy Spirit spoke within me and said, You've done the same thing before. And then He said that some drivers are not as good as you. You don't know, this person may simply have to get off on the next offramp and they're doing the best they can. Sure enough the car got off on the next exit and I saw the driver. She was this little old Lady leaning forward trying to see over the dashboard and gripping the wheel as if her life depended upon it. I felt like a heel. I then thanked God for His Spirit in a pure humility which He had just blessed me with. It's episodes like these that remind me to this very day of what I become without God.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 17, 2022

childeye 2 said:
I sincerely appreciate your response. Sometimes people just ignore what others say if they feel challenged.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. I don't disagree that it's a fact that Jesus said, I longed to gather your children, as a hen gathers her chicks. I also don't disagree that Jesus expressed that they were unwilling to be gathered.
All of that is clear to me.

My point, which is not being recognized, is to show that when this scripture is used as an example of "free will", the term 'free will' becomes an equivocation. Why? Because even "if" Jesus had said they "were willing to be gathered" instead of "unwilling to be gathered", it would still qualify as a free will under that definition of a free will.

Hence this scripture is not evidence of a free will, since it only shows a will that is unwilling to be gathered. Any inference that they could have willed to be gathered is an assumption and therefore a circular reasoning. And this is why I pointed out that Jesus expressly says that we cannot serve two masters, indicating that there are higher powers of darkness and Light and that we cannot serve both, but we will be servants to either one or the other in the moral/immoral context. We do yield ourselves to one or the other as you say, but let's be clear that the powers of darkness rely on deception.

I'm going to cut this off mid statement for just a moment, because I don't want you to misunderstand me here. I never mentioned anything about God wanting some and that He just chose a select few. You 're getting ahead of me in assuming what I might say about this. Having said that, let's now continue the statement:

Respectfully, you're misinterpreting Romans 1:18 if you mean to imply that it's referring to some men, and not all men. It becomes clear that Romans 1:18 applies to all men in Romans 2:1, because it is qualified as such when applied to any man who judges another man as if Romans 1:18 doesn't apply to them.

Romans 2:1
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Also verified in Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

And corroborated in 1 John.
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The whole point of these scriptures is to show that mankind cannot save himself from sinfulness through his ability to make a choice. Why? So that no flesh may glory, and thereby only God alone is Glorified.

Paul here is talking about the darkening of the heart, and it comes with rejecting God’s evidences. It is not that God hides His truth from man. Why is God wrathful, because knowing to do Good people choose evil.

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened….

You said of Romans 2:1

Respectfully, you're misinterpreting Romans 1:18 if you mean to imply that it's referring to some men, and not all men. It becomes clear that Romans 1:18 applies to all men in Romans 2:1, because it is qualified as such when applied to any man who judges another man as if Romans 1:18 doesn't apply to them.

Romans 2:1
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

It is true that we have all rejected God’s evidences. I know I have in the past too.

Rom 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

But it is also true that God judges man according to his deeds.

But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

Who are the two spoken of in this passage:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

There is an action based upon our response to God’s longsuffering. Continuance in seeking Good.

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil

Those who end up damned are those who do not obey the truth.

The final darkening of the heart, or "God not choosing", only occurs after a man has received the light, but chooses to live in sins, the one who does not keep God's word falls.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Nice testimony.

Please note this true testimony on how I rely upon the Holy Spirit to convict me of sin:

I was driving on the highway when a car abruptly cut in front of me and I got angry at the driver and I started calling them stupid. Just then the Holy Spirit spoke within me and said, You've done the same thing before. And then He said that some drivers are not as good as you. You don't know, this person may simply have to get off on the next offramp and they're doing the best they can. Sure enough the car got off on the next exit and I saw the driver. She was this little old Lady leaning forward trying to see over the dashboard and gripping the wheel as if her life depended upon it. I felt like a heel. I then thanked God for His Spirit in a pure humility which He had just blessed me with. It's episodes like these that remind me to this very day of what I become without God.

childeye 2 · Jun 18, 2022

Sorry for the long post.

FutureAndAHope said:
Paul here is talking about the darkening of the heart, and it comes with rejecting God’s evidences. It is not that God hides His truth from man. Why is God wrathful, because knowing to do Good people choose evil.

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened….

To me Romans 1:18-23 is descriptive of a time in the past, of what mankind did that gave rise to God's wrath. And I think it applies to every generation thereafter. It speaks as if there was a time before God gave mankind over to the flesh. A time before there was homosexuality, vile affections, reprobate minds, and all manner of sinfulness. A time before the law, where like the prodigal son, each person went their own way in the knowledge of good and evil to establish their own ways of righteousness, which became irreverent in their separation from God.

I believe this below is the interpretation of God's wrath we all usually envision. We tend to think of God as an angry parent whose child won't be good.

Why is God wrathful, because knowing to do Good people choose evil.

But we can see that Paul, who was once the unbelieving Saul who thought he was being good, speaks of God's wrath in a deeper sense of irreverence and in its consequences to our nature. Paul expresses a sentiment; that as much as we didn't value God's Spirit, God gave us over to the lusts of our own flesh. As if to teach a lesson that, like the prodigal son, would be learned the hard way.

Here is what he said mankind did to cause God's wrath:
We did not revere God when we knew Him.
We did not esteem God as God, The Eternal Power.
We were unthankful to God for wisdom.
We imagined we were wise in ourselves.
We became vain fools with darkened hearts through un-thankfulness.
We changed the Glory of the Uncorruptible God by likening God to a corruptible man.
We created false images of god/gods.
We worshipped the creature over the Creator.
We did not want to retain God in our knowledge.
We Changed the Truth of God into a lie.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 24-32 is saying what mankind becomes when God gives a person up/over to the lusts of the flesh.

I would point out that according to scripture God gave mankind over to vile affections, and reprobate minds that would do what is inconvenient, to be merciless without understanding, haters of God, without natural affection, inventors of evil things, and all other manner of sinfulness.

If we have free wills that could choose to do good anytime we decide to, we could simply choose to have natural affection, to be merciful and understanding, and to not have vile affections, or reprobate minds. And as I have testified, I need the Holy Spirit to convict me of sin even now.

Which is why we see these scriptures:
2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"The whole point of these scriptures is to show that mankind cannot save himself from sinfulness through his ability to make a choice. Why? So that no flesh may glory, and thereby only God alone is Glorified".

But it is also true that God judges man according to his deeds.

But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

Who are the two spoken of in this passage:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

There is an action based upon our response to God’s longsuffering. Continuance in seeking Good.

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil

Those who end up damned are those who do not obey the truth.

I appreciate your exhortation that we need to abide in an obedience to God, particularly so as to persevere in the Love that suffers and forgives the sins of others as we carry our own cross. But I want you to understand that my point about the carnal will, is that we can't obey a Truth we don't know or have corrupted through false imagery. And I would also add that abstaining from doing evil does not qualify as doing good or being good.

The Truth I see that needs to be obeyed, is that God is Spirit and true worship is looking to the needs of others. But as pertains to sinfulness, I believe that only God can spare us from the lusts of our flesh and subsequently His wrath, even as Romans 1 indicates that we become abominations without His Spirit. The Truth is that Agape Love/compassion is His Eternal Spirit, and we know God, brotherly Love, only because He gave us His Spirit which we have all taken for granted in carnal vanity. And now the Truth and the way to Life is through knowing and following in the Spirit of Christ, the True Image of God sent by God and not imagined by any man. The Truth is that God's righteousness is God's Spirit abiding in us in a purity of heart, and us abiding in the Truth of Him is what keeps us Holy as He is Holy.

God reveals this Truth in a way so that we cannot claim we chose to know Him and we therefore cannot claim we choose to be righteous. There is a way that we can try to act righteous in our vanity (see Satan), but that is seeking our own glory and honor in the eyes of others rather than in God's eyes. Because it's God's Word that cleans the inside of the cup and mankind's best efforts only cleans the outside.

The scripture above from Romans 2 is written as an admonition to those who judge others in a self-condemning self-righteous spirit of hypocrisy, because they also are in the same flesh as everyone else and have done the same things as all flesh has. This is why Paul indicates that they will not escape the judgment of God so long as they judge others as if God's Spirit is not a necessity to make a person righteous. Paul even submits that they are despising the richness of God's goodness, longsuffering, and forbearance, even because they don't comprehend that God's Loving mercy leads a person to repentance. He then goes on to say that due to their hard and impenitent heart (they do not admit that all flesh sins in irreverence to God) they are treasuring up wrath for the day when God "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS".

This would probably be a good time to remind ourselves of these scriptures:
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The final darkening of the heart, or "God not choosing", only occurs after a man has received the light, but chooses to live in sins, the one who does not keep God's word falls.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I see this verse 18 above as the only truly free will there is; the will set free from sin by God's Holy Spirit of Truth given by grace through faith in Christ. It is expedient for me to beware of Satan's devices so as to resist the deceptive imaginings that would seek to undermine the Truth and whereby temptation arises. If I were to think God has given me a free will to sin and die, I don't believe that's the Holy Spirit teaching me that.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 24, 2022

childeye 2 said:
Sorry for the long post.

To me Romans 1:18-23 is descriptive of a time in the past, of what mankind did that gave rise to God's wrath. And I think it applies to every generation thereafter. It speaks as if there was a time before God gave mankind over to the flesh. A time before there was homosexuality, vile affections, reprobate minds, and all manner of sinfulness. A time before the law, where like the prodigal son, each person went their own way in the knowledge of good and evil to establish their own ways of righteousness, which became irreverent in their separation from God.

I believe this below is the interpretation of God's wrath we all usually envision. We tend to think of God as an angry parent whose child won't be good.

Why is God wrathful, because knowing to do Good people choose evil.

But we can see that Paul, who was once the unbelieving Saul who thought he was being good, speaks of God's wrath in a deeper sense of irreverence and in its consequences to our nature. Paul expresses a sentiment; that as much as we didn't value God's Spirit, God gave us over to the lusts of our own flesh. As if to teach a lesson that, like the prodigal son, would be learned the hard way.

Here is what he said mankind did to cause God's wrath:
We did not revere God when we knew Him.
We did not esteem God as God, The Eternal Power.
We were unthankful to God for wisdom.
We imagined we were wise in ourselves.
We became vain fools with darkened hearts through un-thankfulness.
We changed the Glory of the Uncorruptible God by likening God to a corruptible man.
We created false images of god/gods.
We worshipped the creature over the Creator.
We did not want to retain God in our knowledge.
We Changed the Truth of God into a lie.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 24-32 is saying what mankind becomes when God gives a person up/over to the lusts of the flesh.

I would point out that according to scripture God gave mankind over to vile affections, and reprobate minds that would do what is inconvenient, to be merciless without understanding, haters of God, without natural affection, inventors of evil things, and all other manner of sinfulness.

If we have free wills that could choose to do good anytime we decide to, we could simply choose to have natural affection, to be merciful and understanding, and to not have vile affections, or reprobate minds. And as I have testified, I need the Holy Spirit to convict me of sin even now.

Which is why we see these scriptures:
2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"The whole point of these scriptures is to show that mankind cannot save himself from sinfulness through his ability to make a choice. Why? So that no flesh may glory, and thereby only God alone is Glorified".

I appreciate your exhortation that we need to abide in an obedience to God, particularly so as to persevere in the Love that suffers and forgives the sins of others as we carry our own cross. But I want you to understand that my point about the carnal will, is that we can't obey a Truth we don't know or have corrupted through false imagery. And I would also add that abstaining from doing evil does not qualify as doing good or being good.

The Truth I see that needs to be obeyed, is that God is Spirit and true worship is looking to the needs of others. But as pertains to sinfulness, I believe that only God can spare us from the lusts of our flesh and subsequently His wrath, even as Romans 1 indicates that we become abominations without His Spirit. The Truth is that Agape Love/compassion is His Eternal Spirit, and we know God, brotherly Love, only because He gave us His Spirit which we have all taken for granted in carnal vanity. And now the Truth and the way to Life is through knowing and following in the Spirit of Christ, the True Image of God sent by God and not imagined by any man. The Truth is that God's righteousness is God's Spirit abiding in us in a purity of heart, and us abiding in the Truth of Him is what keeps us Holy as He is Holy.

God reveals this Truth in a way so that we cannot claim we chose to know Him and we therefore cannot claim we choose to be righteous. There is a way that we can try to act righteous in our vanity (see Satan), but that is seeking our own glory and honor in the eyes of others rather than in God's eyes. Because it's God's Word that cleans the inside of the cup and mankind's best efforts only cleans the outside.

The scripture above from Romans 2 is written as an admonition to those who judge others in a self-condemning self-righteous spirit of hypocrisy, because they also are in the same flesh as everyone else and have done the same things as all flesh has. This is why Paul indicates that they will not escape the judgment of God so long as they judge others as if God's Spirit is not a necessity to make a person righteous. Paul even submits that they are despising the richness of God's goodness, longsuffering, and forbearance, even because they don't comprehend that God's Loving mercy leads a person to repentance. He then goes on to say that due to their hard and impenitent heart (they do not admit that all flesh sins in irreverence to God) they are treasuring up wrath for the day when God "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS".

This would probably be a good time to remind ourselves of these scriptures:
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I see this verse 18 above as the only truly free will there is; the will set free from sin by God's Holy Spirit of Truth given by grace through faith in Christ. It is expedient for me to beware of Satan's devices so as to resist the deceptive imaginings that would seek to undermine the Truth and whereby temptation arises. If I were to think God has given me a free will to sin and die, I don't believe that's the Holy Spirit teaching me that.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. But let's look at two verses together. In regard to receiving the Holy Spirit. Both the passages refer to receiving the Holy Spirit (if they are read in context).

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see from the words of Jesus that there is an action preceding our "enlightening" (receiving of the Spirit), it is to receive and love Jesus' words. I believe this starts with a "love" for Jesus' free gift of salvation. As you say "not of works". No one of us can boast that we are righteous, that is not the point of it. The point is we fall in love with, or respect, Jesus for His free offer to redeem us. We then follow through daily, denying sinful lusts, and moving closer to Jesus and His word.

As I pointed out in another post, Jesus' doctrine is:

Man loves God's word
So God loves him back
God reveals Himself to the person

Calvinism states:

Man can not love God
So God selects a few tokens to redeem
God opens their eyes

Ask your self from Jesus' own words which of the two doctrines is correct. Free will obedience to God's call, or fatalism, God preselecting a few evil men?

childeye 2 · Jun 25, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
Thank you for taking the time to respond. But let's look at two verses together. In regard to receiving the Holy Spirit. Both the passages refer to receiving the Holy Spirit (if they are read in context).

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see from the words of Jesus that there is an action preceding our "enlightening" (receiving of the Spirit), it is to receive and love Jesus' words. I believe this starts with a "love" for Jesus' free gift of salvation. As you say "not of works". No one of us can boast that we are righteous, that is not the point of it. The point is we fall in love with, or respect, Jesus for His free offer to redeem us. We then follow through daily, denying sinful lusts, and moving closer to Jesus and His word.

As I pointed out in another post, Jesus' doctrine is:

Man loves God's word

So God loves him back

God reveals Himself to the person

Calvinism states:

Man can not love God

So God selects a few tokens to redeem

God opens their eyes

Ask your self from Jesus' own words which of the two doctrines is correct. Free will obedience to God's call, or fatalism, God preselecting a few evil men?

I'm going to make a small mention about semantics. Suffice it to say that the same words don't always carry the same meaning for every individual. This creates misunderstandings. I'm somewhat wary of the term Calvinism because I can't speak to his sentiments knowledgeably without first qualifying the sentiments behind his chosen words. For example I don't know that the statements you made above are Calvin's exact sentiments, or your interpretation which could be misunderstandings or hearsay. So, I will address this question with the stipulation that I am not defending Calvin, or Calvinism.

Free will obedience to God's call, or fatalism, God preselecting a few evil men?

I don't understand this either/or proposition. I don't know what you mean by Free will obedience. Did you mean to say free will obedience/disobedience? How are you qualifying the term free? Do you mean free from coercion, or free from determinism? Because I know you said fatalism which implies it's not destined by God which way a person chooses. Also, what do you mean by God preselecting a few evil men? Is He selecting them for salvation or for destruction, and is it by random chance, or is there a methodology of how God destines this to happen?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Notice that in the scripture above, this obedience came from the heart, which means it was not the product of deliberation and implies that it could not have chosen otherwise. Also, the thanks for it, is given to God.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 25, 2022

childeye 2 said:
I don't understand this either/or proposition. I don't know what you mean by Free will obedience. Does it preclude free will disobedience?

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me

childeye 2 said:
What do you mean by God preselecting a few evil men? Is He selecting them for salvation or for destruction, and why? Do you mean to imply determinism? Because fatalism is not the same thing.

The way the doctrine of election describes things is man has no desire for God's word, can not love it, and can not love God. God then chooses some of these undeserving people to receive life (whom he then enlightens), the rest He leaves to themselves for damnation.

So again let's present the scripture:

Jesus said:

He who has my commandments, and keeps them, is he who loves me
He will be loved by my Father
My Father will manifest Himself to Him, enlightening them with His Spirit
Those who have no love for God or His word, are damned

Election says:

Man can not keep God's word (commandments)
So God selects a few undeserving people
Those whom he selects He enlightens with the Holy Spirit
The rest are left to themselves, with no real hope

As the Psalmist says:

Psa 4:3 But know that the LORD has set apart for Himself him who is godly; The LORD will hear when I call to Him.

As for free will:

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

God has a willingness to save people, in fact, He desires it, but man is often times unwilling.

childeye 2 · Jun 25, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me

These scriptures are stating that those who love him will keep his commandments, and those who don't love him will not keep his word within them. They actually show that a person can't serve two masters, they do not show a free will able to not love Christ and love Christ at one's discretion.

The way the doctrine of election describes things is man has no desire for God's word, can not love it, and can not love God. God then chooses some of these undeserving people to receive life (whom he then enlightens), the rest He leaves to themselves for damnation.

Well the first sentence above sounds somewhat like the carnal mind and the depravity of the flesh that loves itself over others. All flesh has been shown to be sinful and all of mankind has been condemned as sinners under the law. The second sentence sounds like a mix between the condemnation of loving darkness more than the Light, and no man can come to me unless it is given of God, for they shall all be taught of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So again let's present the scripture:

Jesus said:

He who has my commandments, and keeps them, is he who loves me

He will be loved by my Father

My Father will manifest Himself to Him, enlightening them with His Spirit

Those who have no love for God or His word, are damned

Election says:

Man can not keep God's word (commandments)

So God selects a few undeserving people

Those whom he selects He enlightens with the Holy Spirit

The rest are left to themselves, with no real hope

As the Psalmist says:

Psa 4:3 But know that the LORD has set apart for Himself him who is godly; The LORD will hear when I call to Him.

I don't think election is saying God selects a few undeserving people. I think election is saying that God is going to create children unto Himself through the rebirth of the Spirit.

As for free will:

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

The term free will that you are using is an equivocation. I'm not sure you realize that. Whether they were willing or not willing a person could claim it's a free will. Which leaves the question, why were they unwilling rather than willing?

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Again this does not prove that the will is free from sin. The question should be put forth, why are people wicked? Free will is not an answer to the question. To say it's because they can be is not an answer, it's a circular reasoning.

God has a willingness to save people, in fact, He desires it, but man is often times unwilling.

I can understand why God is willing. The question should be why is a person unwilling? Because the will is free to be willing or unwilling is not an answer.

These things are found in Christ Jesus:

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 26, 2022

childeye 2 said:
I don't think election is saying God selects a few undeserving people. I think election is saying that God is going to create children unto Himself through the rebirth of the Spirit.

Regardless, Election does not fit with Jesus' words on who and who is not enlightened, or given rebirth.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me

The order is very important, man's action, then God's action. This is a free-will choice on the part of the person. Just use logic for a minute, which God makes more sense, One who gives man a choice based upon the way they respond to Him (giving Him free worship), so in the end, judges man according to their deeds. Or a God who forces people to love Him, and pours out wrath, for no reason other than He created them for it on others. Now God says He "is love". Which of these two things is love?

childeye 2 · Jun 26, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
Regardless, Election does not fit with Jesus' words on who and who is not enlightened, or given rebirth.

I appreciate your response FutureAndAhope.

The elect are God's doing, not mankind's doing. We all can agree on that. God is making children unto Himself. I think we both acknowledge that these scriptures pertain to God fulfilling His purpose that He proposed in Himself from before the beginning.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The order is very important, man's action, then God's action. This is a free-will choice on the part of the person.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

When any one hears the Word, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes, and steals away that which was sown in the heart.
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom He hath sent. The Gospel is the action/work of God that comes first. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word being preached. The "will" is comprised of the heart/desire and soul; spiritual Light/darkness, and the mind/reasoning. It's a matter of getting God's Spirit into the heart so it can grow, and any mental deliberation against the Word is the enemy working to keep the person blind. A person has to be convinced in some measure to truly want to believe in their heart. Look at the parable of the Sower. The seed is sown inside the heart. All of the things that hinder the growth of fruit are about the condition of the heart where the darkness perpetuated by the prince of this world needs to be cast out.

When any one hears the Word, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes, and steals away that which was sown in the heart.
The cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches chokes off the word.
Those having not enough root in oneself can only endure for a while, so when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, by and by he is offended.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Just use logic for a minute, which God makes more sense, One who gives man a choice based upon the way they respond to Him (giving Him free worship), so in the end, judges man according to their deeds. Or a God who forces people to love Him, and pours out wrath, for no reason other than He created them for it on others. Now God says He "is love". Which of these two things is love?

Well, it's true what you mean to say is a logical point. But that's not how it should be articulated in our thoughts and words concerning the spiritual content of the will/desire/soul. For example, God has made it so that those who are forgiven much love the Master more than those who are forgiven little. And God has chosen the lowly and the weak things to put to naught the high and mighty. We need to account for the spiritual reality that an equivocating will is an uncommitted will blinded by a lie and subverting the Truth of God. And that we are not in Christ if we have such a so called "free will" that has not yet been set free from deception through the Truth of God in Christ.

When God breathed into the dirt, His Spirit was not an imposition upon the dirt to become something more than dirt. Likewise, God is the brotherly Love that is working in us to will to do good. It's not me, it's Christ living in me, since I see my old self passing away. I'm a new creation in the making. In Christ, I Love loving others. I Love serving others and helping others. It's joyous, fulfilling and full of hope. I love to show grace, I love to forgive, I love to give charity wherever there's a need. I love to praise God. I worship God's Spirit because He's worthy. I really don't think about any reward, I just care about other people because it hurts me to see others hurt, and I thank God that I do. Any thought that God is an imposition is the enemy trying to deceive me.

In the Light of this Truth, which makes more sense? True worship is drawn out by the object of worship and not at the discretion of the worshipper? Or, true worship of God is only if I can also choose not to.

Which makes more sense? True thankfulness is drawn out by the recognized value of the object being appreciated, or true thankfulness is in the ability of the recipient to take it or leave it?

Jonaitis · Jun 27, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
But Irenaeus in his Against Heresies, who was only one generation separated from Paul states

Be careful, just because someone lived in close proximity of the apostolic age does not automatically make every statement of theirs correct. If you ever study early church history, there were many people that lived during the lives of the apostles and time after that were completely wrong about Scripture. Irenaeus taught some good things, and some wrong things.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 27, 2022

childeye 2 said:
I appreciate your response FutureAndAhope.

The elect are God's doing, not mankind's doing. We all can agree on that. God is making children unto Himself. I think we both acknowledge that these scriptures pertain to God fulfilling His purpose that He proposed in Himself from before the beginning.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I have always believed in the free will of man. The Early Church Fathers support that view, they also believe in free will. Due to the fact that I have always viewed scripture through free will, and have the support of those who wrote about scripture from the Early Church. I do not view Romans 8:29 in the same way that you believe it to mean.

Firstly the word “foreknown”, according to the dictionary definition, is to foresee, meaning to know what is ahead or know beforehand.

προγινώσκω

proginōskō

prog-in-oce'-ko

From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

I see the scripture looking ahead to a time when people would put their faith in Jesus. Who was predestined before the world to be our atonement:

1Pe 1:19-21 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

As such, I see the verse meaning:

Rom 8:29 For whom He foresaw [a people who would respond in faith], He also [ordained] predestined [to be saved by the work of Christ] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

All like verses referring to predestination I see in this way.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 27, 2022

Jonaitis said:
Irenaeus taught some good things, and some wrong things.

Ok, what wrong things did he teach? Can you give evidence?

childeye 2 · Jun 27, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
I have always believed in the free will of man. The Early Church Fathers support that view, they also believe in free will. Due to the fact that I have always viewed scripture through free will, and have the support of those who wrote about scripture from the Early Church. I do not view Romans 8:29 in the same way that you believe it to mean.

Firstly the word “foreknown”, according to the dictionary definition, is to foresee, meaning to know what is ahead or know beforehand.

προγινώσκω

proginōskō

prog-in-oce'-ko

From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

I see the scripture looking ahead to a time when people would put their faith in Jesus. Who was predestined before the world to be our atonement:

1Pe 1:19-21 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

As such, I see the verse meaning:

Rom 8:29 For whom He foresaw [a people who would respond in faith], He also [ordained] predestined [to be saved by the work of Christ] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

All like verses referring to predestination I see in this way.

Well, admittedly I feel there is a disconnect between you and I, because I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think you think I do. Hence there may be a misunderstanding. I see no difference in any of the interpretations above. You can call it foresee but that does not change that it's destined to happen. To foreordain simply means to predestinate. We may think that this nullifies a free will because we assume God would not decide for us, or we may think He knew what we would decide. But if God is sifting or refining spiritual elements, then we could be deciding for ourselves and still God has preordained that we would decide the way we do. And this is why I have said that this is not about a decision or mental deliberation. It is about whether a person believes in the heart. For Paul said, that the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. And again, For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

So moving on, some early Church Fathers believed in free will and others did not, depending upon how free will is qualified. We all have a will capable of making decisions, but making a choice doesn't mean the will is free in the moral/immoral aspect of being vessels of Light/dark. And we're not here to divide Christ against His self. We're not here to scatter the sheep, so to speak, but to gather the sheep in the common faith that abides in Christ.

What we're dealing with here is semantics, which when studied is basically about identifying positives and negatives. The term 'free' applied to the term 'will' is usually left unqualified in our psycholinguistics. When left unqualified, it is fluid in our thoughts and can come to mean anything and everything a man does or doesn't do; and even have opposite meanings that contradict one another, all under the same term.

This is why when Jesus said the Truth would set you free, it caused the people to question how they had ever not been free. They did not comprehend that Jesus was saying they were not "free from sin" because they lacked the knowledge of God governing in their reasoning. They would probably see sin as an ability rather than a disability. For the Pharisees said why does your Master sit with the sinners, and Jesus recognizing this said, the sick need a doctor. Jesus taught that sin is a disability.

Jesus taught that their wills were not free because they were slaves to sin, as in serving a higher power of darkness that was manipulating them through deceit against their own best interests by posing as the light. Therefore, when they crucified him, he also interceded for them saying, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do". And again, just before Steven was to be stoned to death, Steven also interceded for his oppressors and cried out to God that they should not be charged with his murder.

And the semantics can get more complicated. Please note that a free will qualified as free from sin is the same will when qualified as a slave to righteousness, and a free will qualified as free from righteousness is a will that is also a slave to sin. They are two opposites in their true sentiments but can come in four different descriptions. But when they're fully qualified terms we can see that they're opposites. That's why people like myself are loathe to say in the moral/immoral sense that we have a free will when it's not qualified. It's like saying we have no Masters, no Lords (subjective terminology), or have two Masters and are uncommitted or doubleminded. We don't want to be misunderstood nor misunderstand others.

The will that is dubbed free because it chooses between sin and righteousness is therefore an equivocation between two masters. Both Masters claim to be serving our best interests, but one is both a tempter and an accuser of those he tempts, and the other is the true shepherd. Hence Jesus taught that you must have a Master because there are spiritual powers of Light and darkness, and that you can't serve two masters because you will love one more than the other. I've mentioned this several times and you have not acknowledged that Jesus taught this.

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