Can a Christian make the following statement in good faith?

Xeno.of.athens

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We seem to be a bit schizophrenic about all this. 38 states have laws that consider the killing of an unborn child during the commission of a crime to be homicide. The federal government likewise recognizes this fact for its own purposes. It seems it all depends on whether the child is wanted or not. Strange. Abortion is fascism against the unborn. Systematic legalized genocide by the irresponsible usually for convenience.
Fascism and genocide says your post, yet who is willing to arrest the mother who contracts to have the infant killed, the doctors who performs the killing, and the nurses who assist in the killing, and also the secretary/receptionist who books the appointment to perform the killing? And if it is genocide or the lesser crime of premeditated/planned murder who will pass the laws to sentence the perpetrators to the full penalty of the law in their respective states - a death penalty in many of the 50 states of the USA?

Is that what you advocate?
 
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fhansen

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Abortion is a medical procedure. Like all medical procedures, the decision is best left up to the woman, her physician, and perhaps her family. Letting a woman die because of her being forced to carry a fetus, the state of which will kill her, is murder. Forcing her to carry to term a fetus that is the result of rape and/or incest is insane.

Claiming that "systematic legalized genocide by the irresponsible usually for convenience" is insanity.
"Medical procedure"... right. Whatever euphemism we might need to salve our consciences I guess. Unnaturally ripping a fetus from its native environment by those who're supposed to protect its life might be another way to term it.
 
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fhansen

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Fascism and genocide says your post, yet who is willing to arrest the mother who contracts to have the infant killed, the doctors who performs the killing, and the nurses who assist in the killing, and also the secretary/receptionist who books the appointment to perform the killing? And if it is genocide or the lesser crime of premeditated/planned murder who will pass the laws to sentence the perpetrators to the full penalty of the law in their respective states - a death penalty in many of the 50 states of the USA?

Is that what you advocate?
IDK, is it fascist to defend the helpless and innocent?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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IDK, is it fascist to defend the helpless and innocent?
That is the vocabulary you included in your earlier post so asking me if it was a good word to use is misplaced. You are best qualified to say if what you posted was a good choice of words.

But I still wonder if you advocate - the arrest of the mother who contracts to have the infant killed, the doctors who performs the killing, and the nurses who assist in the killing, and also the secretary/receptionist who books the appointment to perform the killing?

And if it is genocide or the lesser crime of premeditated/planned murder who will pass the laws to sentence the perpetrators to the full penalty of the law in their respective states - a death penalty in many of the 50 states of the USA?

Is that what you advocate?
 
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fhansen

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That is the vocabulary you included in your earlier post so asking me if it was a good word to use is misplaced. You are best qualified to say if what you posted was a good choice of words.

But I still wonder if you advocate - the arrest of the mother who contracts to have the infant killed, the doctors who performs the killing, and the nurses who assist in the killing, and also the secretary/receptionist who books the appointment to perform the killing?

And if it is genocide or the lesser crime of premeditated/planned murder who will pass the laws to sentence the perpetrators to the full penalty of the law in their respective states - a death penalty in many of the 50 states of the USA?

Is that what you advocate?
I'm advocating not killing the innocent. I don't know what it would take to prevent it but any Christian should advocate it. And yes, fascism is a pretty adequate word to describe those who would control the fate of another. What do you advocate, no consequences for murder?
 
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BravoM

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FYI, my wife was a nurse-midwife (RN) for many years. I understand pregnancy, the birth process, female anatomy, abortions, etc. far, far better than you ever will. Period. So you would be wise not to try to challenge me in that area, as it would only result in your showing your ignorance.

Your "marginal stance" argument is absurd. According to you, must one be in the majority to be right? That is what the Pharisees claimed when they opposed Jesus and the disciples.

Finally, your comment that "the normal are planned and unplanned pregnancies where the child is NOT killed" is a waste. Duh! No kidding!
Yeah, ok. Don't act like a mind reader and assume you know what someone else knows.
Not to challenge you?
The majority and marginal in this exist. Simple. The marginal does NOT define the majority.
Don't act all high and mighty when your "wife" is the one with experience not you.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I'm advocating not killing the innocent. I don't know what it would take to prevent it but any Christian should advocate it. And yes, fascism is a pretty adequate word to describe those who would control the fate of another. What do you advocate, no consequences for murder?
Would you think or say something like "I will never have an abortion nor would I advise another person to have one nor would I go out of my way to assist a person to have one"?
 
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fhansen

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Would you think or say something like "I will never have an abortion nor would I advise another person to have one nor would I go out of my way to assist a person to have one"?
I would start there. And I would also prosecute a person who killed an unborn child during the commission of a crime. I once virtually begged a young woman to not have an abortion. And I told her that I would support her during her pregnancy and take and raise the child if that was possible. Not good enough however
 
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concretecamper

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The decision creates a hardship for women who live in those states in which abortion is illegal. They will have to travel.
wow, killing your unborn child is now a hardship? Good grief
 
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RileyG

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If abortion is murder, then you have to be against it in all forms. Period.

Ultimately, if you want to help women, you may not want to criminalize the actual act but bring them appropriate resources other than terminating their own pregnancy.
 
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concretecamper

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If abortion is murder, then you have to be against it in all forms. Period.
exactly
Ultimately, if you want to help women, you may not want to criminalize the actual act but bring them appropriate resources other than terminating their own pregnancy.
killing is killing, whether at 6 weeks or 46 weeks
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Is "killing killing" without any qualifications? If one kills a person at 200 weeks the killer will be arrested without any doubt - except in war. If one kills at 12 weeks will the killer be arrested?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I would start there. And I would also prosecute a person who killed an unborn child during the commission of a crime. I once virtually begged a young woman to not have an abortion. And I told her that I would support her during her pregnancy and take and raise the child if that was possible. Not good enough however
If she went ahead with the abortion would you want her arrested and charged with murder?
 
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RDKirk

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I don't think they can, because even if they are not directly participating in it, they are still in favor of people doing it if they want to. That's enabling them. That sounds more like a Christian trying to play both sides of the fence. Trying to be friends with or accepted by the world but also trying to stick to Christian values. Think about if a Christian said that about slavery or child molestation.

That applies as well to a Christian supporting a nation at war because every war, without exception, involves the slaughter of innocents.

It's like that old joke: A man approaches a woman and asks if she'd sleep with him for a million dollars. She agrees. He then asks her if she'd sleep with him for twenty dollars. She angrily retorts, "Do you think I'm a prostitute?" The man replied, "We've already established that. Now we're just haggling over the price."

A Christian who supports a national policy of war--knowing that innocents will die--is the same as a Christian who supports a national policy of abortion. The debate is merely over the difference of opinions in justifications.

Both actions are rooted in the sin of this world. Neither is righteous in the eyes of Jesus--Jesus is no more smiling down on the warrior than the abortionist. The nature of all earthly nations is rooted in sin.

The question is: Does Jesus hold a Christian responsible for the actions and policies of the earthly king?

Paul and Peter both instructed Christians to obey Emperor Nero. But did Jesus hold Paul or Peter or any of the Christians who followed their instructions responsible for the actions and policies of Emperor Nero?

Or don't we believe that Jesus held Christians under Nero responsible only for their own personal actions?

I'm going to point out my own signature:

Citizen of Heaven, currently deployed to the US -- 1 Peter 1:1

No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather works to please his commanding officer. -- 2 Timothy 2:4
 
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fhansen

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I advocate criminal prosecution for people who pay for, perform, and assist in a murder.
Ok, so abortion is murder, the taking of an innocent human life as your church maintains. It may be done in ignorance, unintentional, but it is what it is. And that's where we must start.
 
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fhansen

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If she went ahead with the abortion would you want her arrested and charged with murder?
Well, the procedure was legal, of course-and she did go ahead with it. And no, I wouldn't do so either way at this point. But that in no way means we should legalize murder.
 
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