I just lied to someone.

LoveGodsWord

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That doesn't answer question: So Rahab didn't deceive the those looking for the spies in any way?

Let's take a look:

1 Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim. “Go, look over the land,” he said, “especially Jericho.” So they went and entered the house of a prostitute named Rahab and stayed there.

2 The king of Jericho was told, “Look, some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.”

3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”

4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, they left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.”

6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)

7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut. Joshua 2:1-7

In Joshua 2:4-5 was Rahab telling the truth? Or was she lying?
There is no where in those scriptures that says it is now ok to lie and sin. Rahab was not commended anywhere in the bible for lying.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Why are you trying to justify sin? There is no where in those scriptures that says it is now ok to lie.

Why are you avoiding the question?

In Joshua 2:4-5 was Rahab telling the truth? Or was she lying?



 
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LoveGodsWord

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Why are you avoiding the question?
In Joshua 2:4-5 was Rahab telling the truth? Or was she lying?
What does that have to do with no where in scripture is Rahab commended for lying? The scriptures teach no where that it is now ok to tell lies. Lying is a sin *1 John 3:4. Rahab did not know what sin was because she was a gentile harlot
 
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Ceallaigh

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What does that have to do with no where in scripture is Rahab commended for lying? The scriptures teach no where that it is now ok to tell lies. Lying is a sin *1 John 3:4. Rahab did not know what sin was because she was a gentile harlot

So gentiles were free of sin?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So gentiles were free of sin?
"To him that knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin" - James 4:17

and again...

" For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." - Hebrews 10:26-27,

What do you think those scriptures mean?
 
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Ceallaigh

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"To him that knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin" - James 4:17

and again...

" For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." - Hebrews 10:26-27,

What do you think those scriptures mean?

You posted them, so it's up to you to convey what you think they mean in relation to the question I asked.

MMXX said:
So gentiles were free of sin?
 
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Halbhh

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Most likely not. Even though it was being done for my own good, as in trying to keep me from getting into trouble. If a cop doesn't like getting tickets, should that keep him from giving tickets? I'd say the answer is no. But then again, that seems to contradict doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Hmmm...if it happens that he was acting as if he was under the influence (partly drunk), then you could consider that when you try to imagine 'being in their shoes' , and ask yourself 'how would I want someone to handle answering me if I was drunk and a little off?' and it might be your answer was then ok if that's the case (or maybe not?). Or on the other hand, if he seemed sober and just having bad mental attitude, then trying to imagine someone like that, one possible way to answer that could fit some people/situations as I'm imaging it (which may or may fit that actual person's condition) might be I'd think about answering softly ('a soft answer turneth away wrath' -- Proverbs) like "Oh, I'm sorry, we are worried that the rocks might get end up on the tracks like if kids came along and put them on the tracks for a prank or something, so we had to move them" -- said with sympathy and respect and caring for them as a person.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Hmmm...if it happens that he was acting as if he was under the influence (partly drunk), then you could consider that when you try to imagine 'being in their shoes' , and ask yourself 'how would I want someone to handle answering me if I was drunk and a little off?' and it might be your answer was then ok if that's the case (or maybe not?). Or on the other hand, if he seemed sober and just having bad mental attitude, then trying to imagine someone like that, one possible way to answer that could fit some people/situations as I'm imaging it (which may or may fit that actual person's condition) might be I'd think about answering softly ('a soft answer turneth away wrath' -- Proverbs) like "Oh, I'm sorry, we are worried that the rocks might get end up on the tracks like if kids came along and put them on the tracks for a prank or something, so we had to move them" -- said with sympathy and respect and caring for them as a person.

He was most likely mentally ill. There's lots of mentally ill people who hang around the area. I've been dealing with them for years. And this one was in the considered to be a threat category. There's better things I could have said, but I didn't have any time to ponder it over. I discovered a long time ago that being nice usually results in cooperation.
 
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Halbhh

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He was most likely mentally ill. There's lots of mentally ill people who hang around the area. I've been dealing with them for years. And this one was in the considered to be a threat category. There's better things I could have said, but I didn't have any time to ponder it over. I discovered a long time ago that being nice usually results in cooperation.
Right, well, if we think someone intends to attack us, we aren't obligated to give them information that would provoke them to do the wrongful action they seem to be tending to do. We can intentionally refrain from answering (which itself might provoke), or even give a misleading answer (if not doing a clear harm to them like taking advantage of them or a greater serious wrong like denying God exists) to someone that looks set to do a harm, so as to help them not do the harm they look like they are going to do. If the misleading answer doesn't itself do something clearly wrongful like trick them in order to take advantage of them (harm them), then you aren't breaking the golden rule, in that if you were mentally ill for a day for example, you may well choose it best for someone else to give you a misleading answer to help you avoid doing a sinful action like attacking someone. I would. If I were beset by a bad mental state and in a state where I was agitated and ready to attack someone, then I'd want someone to deflect me from it, help me avoid doing the evil of attacking someone, including by misleading me in a generally harmless way, in a way not meant to take advantage of me.

This gets to why a lie is a sin. A lie is sinful in that it's meant to harm someone, such as by taking advantage of them, to get something from them at their expense, so that they are worse off than before the lie.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You posted them, so it's up to you to convey what you think they mean in relation to the question I asked.

MMXX said:
So gentiles were free of sin?
Those scriptures answer your earlier questions. Perhaps you can pray about it.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Those scriptures answer your earlier questions. I am not seeking to justify the sin of lying. Perhaps you can pray about it.

The topic isn't about justifying sin. It's about dogmatism. For example the experts in the law dogmatically accused Jesus of sinning.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The topic isn't about justifying sin. It's about dogmatism. For example the experts in the law dogmatically accused Jesus of sinning.
Well it is good you have asked for God's forgiveness. Jesus as you have hinted at of course was accused of breaking the Sabbath. Yet here he was the creator of the Sabbath and came to teach us how to correctly keep the Sabbath. Kind of sad how God says to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" in God's 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 yet most people choose to forget it regardless the scriptures teach that sin is defined as the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4). Sadly according to Jesus in 3:18-21 many people seek to justify sin rather than confess it and repent of it and give it to God. Let's all pray we are not in that group Jesus defines in Matthew 7:21-23. Time for me to bow out of this one thanks for the discussion :wave:
 
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Ceallaigh

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Well it is good you have asked for God's forgiveness. Jesus of course was accused of breaking the Sabbath. Yet here he was the creator of the Sabbath and came to teach us how to correctly keep the Sabbath.

This thread wasn't created to promote the dogma of seventh day adventism.

Time for me to bow out of this one thanks for the discussion :wave:

Bye.
 
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Freth

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Did Jesus tell white lies for the benefit of others? No. He told the truth always.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

What is dogma?

dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.​

What is principle?

principle: a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
How do the definitions of dogma and principle apply to God's commandments?
  • God's commandments are laid down by His authority.
  • God's commandments are incontrovertibly true.
  • God's commandments are principles.
Therefore, by definition, anyone who keeps the commandments of God can be called dogmatic.

Conclusions:
  • The commandments of Jesus and the commandments of God are one and the same.
  • If you love Jesus, you will keep His commandments which are also God's commandments.
  • Lying is a sin.
  • There is no gray area where it is okay to lie.
 
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BobRyan

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This thread wasn't created to promote the dogma of seventh day adventism..

Everyone has a POV it does not surprise us that one person's POV is not at war with his/her own denomination... as it turns out.

I don't think this is "breaking news" on CF at this point.
 
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BPPLEE

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Did Jesus tell white lies for the benefit of others? No. He told the truth always.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

What is dogma?

dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.​

What is principle?

principle: a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
How do the definitions of dogma and principle apply to God's commandments?
  • God's commandments are laid down by His authority.
  • God's commandments are incontrovertibly true.
  • God's commandments are principles.
Therefore, by definition, anyone who keeps the commandments of God can be called dogmatic.

Conclusions:
  • The commandments of Jesus and the commandments of God are one and the same.
  • If you love Jesus, you will keep His commandments which are also God's commandments.
  • Lying is a sin.
  • There is no gray area where it is okay to lie.
But there is room not to make things clear;

Mat 13:13

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mar 4:12

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Act 28:26

Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27

For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal
 
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LoveGodsWord

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This thread wasn't created to promote the dogma of seventh day adventism. Bye.
There is nothing really to argue about here dear friend. Telling the truth from the scriptures is not unique to Adventism it is God's Word and Gods' Word is the standard of truth that we are sanctified by according to Jesus in John 17:17 and the only definition of what is true *see also Romans 3:4 that we are to believe and follow. Our opinions do not really mean much in Gods eyes. Therefore as Christians the only standard of truth for us all should be what God's Word says (Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Romans 3:4). Now if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17 how can we have faith if we do not believe and follow what God's Word says? - We can not and whatsoever is not of faith is sin in Gods eye (see Romans 14:23 and Hebrews 11:6; Hebrews 10:26-27; John 3:36).

Take Care :wave:
 
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Leaf473

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Kind of a weird story. I work near a waterfront and railroad property. Another employee saw someone placing fairly big beach rocks near the railroad tracks. We picked them up and dumped them into the water with the other rocks already there. The other employee was concerned he might put the rocks on the tracks or use them to smash something.

So the rock man shows up again about ten minutes later, carrying another rock, and asked me what happened to the other rocks he left there. He was pretty agitated.

I told him twice "I don't know what you're talking about".

I suspect he was probably mentally ill. We get a lot of mentally ill folks going through the area.

So did I sin by lying to him to defuse the situation?
I think you did the right thing.

This story from 1 Samuel 16 came to my mind:
The Lord said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.”

2 But Samuel said, “How can I go? If Saul hears about it, he will kill me.”

The Lord said, “Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the Lord.’ 3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate.” NIV

Sometimes, if you have time beforehand, you can come up with an answer which, while technically true, isn't the whole truth. That's what I see in the story above.

When it was time for my brother and I to move our senile mother into a memory Care unit, we told her we were going to the beach. There actually was a beach down the road a bit from her house that has interesting waves that I hadn't seen in years.

So we did actually go to the beach, and see the waves. But when it was time to leave we got on the road going the other direction away from her house and towards the facility.

Funny thing is, she didn't say anything for about 45 minutes and then said Shouldn't we be at my house by now? That's when I told her the exciting news that we had found a place for her to live much closer to my brother, so he can visit her much more frequently.

She was happy with that and went back to sleep. :)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I think you did the right thing.

This story from 1 Samuel 16 came to my mind:
The Lord said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.”

2 But Samuel said, “How can I go? If Saul hears about it, he will kill me.”

The Lord said, “Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the Lord.’ 3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate.” NIV

Sometimes, if you have time beforehand, you can come up with an answer which, while technically true, isn't the whole truth. That's what I see in the story above.

When it was time for my brother and I to move our senile mother into a memory Care unit, we told her we were going to the beach. There actually was a beach down the road a bit from her house that has interesting waves that I hadn't seen in years.

So we did actually go to the beach, and see the waves. But when it was time to leave we got on the road going the other direction away from her house and towards the facility.

Funny thing is, she didn't say anything for about 45 minutes and then said Shouldn't we be at my house by now? That's when I told her the exciting news that we had found a place for her to live much closer to my brother, so he can visit her much more frequently.

She was happy with that and went back to sleep. :)

Goodness how is 1 Samuel 16 lying? There is no lie there at all. Samuel went to offer sacrifice just as God told him to do. He just did not tell Saul that he was also going to anoint David as King so there is no lie here at all. There is no justification for sin in all of the bible. Lying is a sin and to try and say that God is telling the prophet to lie is a misrepresentation of scripture.
 
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