Imputed

daq said:

What happened to Genesis 22 where Abraham was tested? I mentioned it several times from the passage I quoted in Yakob where he speaks of Abraham offering up Yitzhak. That is Genesis 22. The opening statement in that passage even says that Elohim tested or proved Abraham, (Genesis 22:1-2).

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It was the completion of his faith. Abraham was dead in the first covenant made in Genesis 15. Gen 15:15 Abraham is to die
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and all that generation of the the tribes of Jacob will be dead.
It concerns the 4th generation of his seed.......
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The royal covenant seed of Abraham.......Kings (annointed, prophets) from his loins

It is Genesis 17 which speaks concerning Isaac, and Jacob, and Joseph his annointed "kings", firstborn.

Kings of nations from Sarah.....the mother of us all
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. {Sarah: that is Princess } 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

This covenant is established with an oath, through Isaac in Genesis 22.

The resurrection of the dead has to happen for this promise to be fulfilled.
Genesis 15 they are dead......Genesis 17 are alive

ralliann said:

It was the completion of his faith. Abraham was dead in the first covenant made in Genesis 15. Gen 15:15 Abraham is to die
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and all that generation of the the tribes of Jacob will be dead.
It concerns the 4th generation of his seed.......
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The royal covenant seed of Abraham.......Kings (annointed, prophets) from his loins

It is Genesis 17 which speaks concerning Isaac, and Jacob, and Joseph his annointed "kings", firstborn.

Kings of nations from Sarah.....the mother of us all
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. {Sarah: that is Princess } 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

This covenant is established with an oath, through Isaac in Genesis 22.

The resurrection of the dead has to happen for this promise to be fulfilled.
Genesis 15 they are dead......Genesis 17 are alive

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Hi Ralliann, sorry but it seems as if we may not be on the same page here in this discussion.

Imputed (KJV) righteousness comes from statements such as what has been quoted, James 2:23, (KJV), quoting from Genesis 15:6, (as well as Romans 4:3).

Genesis 15:6 KJV
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

James 2:21-23 KJV
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: [Genesis 15:6] and he was called the Friend of God.

But look what the text from James actually says: it says that the statement from Genesis 15:6 was fulfilled when Abraham offered up his son, which is not until many years later in Genesis 22 when Abraham was proved or tested.

Yusuphhai said:

Greek never produces Monotheism.

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Acts 17 has Paul in Athens (Greece) finding an altar TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. His description of this God (in vss 24-31) is of the philosophically unique First Cause, which by instinct (if by no other way, such as the evidences seen by the senses (Romans 1)), they knew him (also in Romans 1, in vs 21) and worshiped him, but were ignorant of him. This God which they knew (philosophically) was the ONLY first cause, Paul says is the Creator, of whom the Greek (Cretan) philosopher Epimenides had said, "in whom we live and move and have our being." Monotheism.

daq said:

Hi Ralliann, sorry but it seems as if we may not be on the same page here in this discussion.

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Same page....The covenant promises to Abraham in the royal covenant were made sure to the heirs by the oath...In Gen 22.

ralliann said:

Same page....The covenant promises to Abraham in the royal covenant were made sure to the heirs by the oath...In Gen 22.

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That is the point which you believe the epistle of James is making? I also note that the oath was not given until Abraham overcame in his hour of trial.

daq said:

That is the point which you believe the epistle of James is making? I also note that the oath was not given until Abraham overcame in his hour of trial.

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The oath was sworn in Gen 22 establishing the royal covenant covenant of Genesis 17.
Ge 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Ge 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
1Ch 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
Ps 105:9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

ralliann said:

The oath was sworn in Gen 22 establishing the royal covenant covenant of Genesis 17.
Ge 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Ge 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
1Ch 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
Ps 105:9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

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And therefore you are imputed with righteousness?

Mark Quayle said:

Acts 17 has Paul in Athens (Greece) finding an altar TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. His description of this God (in vss 24-31) is of the philosophically unique First Cause, which by instinct (if by no other way, such as the evidences seen by the senses (Romans 1)), they knew him (also in Romans 1, in vs 21) and worshiped him, but were ignorant of him. This God which they knew (philosophically) was the ONLY first cause, Paul says is the Creator, of whom the Greek (Cretan) philosopher Epimenides had said, "in whom we live and move and have our being." Monotheism.

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IshemaEl knew something about Abraham’s Monotheism. This name from left to right means “man hear God”, from right to left means “God hear man”. Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. God made an agreement with Ishmael, but this is not the main thread of Bible. The only one who inherited the heart(core) of covenant of Abraham was Isaac.

Abraham also had 6 children with Keturah, These 6 children knew a little about Abraham’s Monotheism and spread it to Orient and influenced Oriental religions. Hinduism and Buddhism have their unique opinion about “Monotheism”. But Bible does not tell the global insights about Monotheism more. Salvation(Yeshuah) can only produce in the thread of Abraham, Isaac, Israel.

Paul quoted Greek philosophy for the convenient of understanding One God for Greek. If preach to Chinese, can quote Chinese philosophical opinion about “太極”（Taiji, One, 一） .Though Taoism is not a clear monotheism.

daq said:

And therefore you are imputed with righteousness?

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Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Immutability
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath

The covenant of circumcision concerns Abraham's sons from Isaac on.
Genesis 15 speaks to the seed of the fourth generation on. The covenant promises to all the seed of promises is immutable. The covenant which was made 430 after cannot disannul the promises of the Royal covenant.

Yusuphhai said:

IshemaEl knew something about Abraham’s Monotheism. This name from left to right means “man hear God”, from right to left means “God hear man”. Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. God made an agreement with Ishmael, but this is not the main thread of Bible. The only one who inherited the heart(core) of covenant of Abraham was Isaac.

Abraham also had 6 children with Keturah, These 6 children knew a little about Abraham’s Monotheism and spread it to Orient and influenced Oriental religions. Hinduism and Buddhism have their unique opinion about “Monotheism”. But Bible does not tell the global insights about Monotheism more. Salvation(Yeshuah) can only produce in the thread of Abraham, Isaac, Israel.

Paul quoted Greek philosophy for the convenient of understanding One God for Greek. If preach to Chinese, can quote Chinese philosophical opinion about “太極”（Taiji, One, 一） .Though Taoism is not a clear monotheism.

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I get your point, and it's not a bad one. My point (at least, I think that my point) was merely that Greece was not bereft of the notion of monotheism.

In fact, I don't think any one people have been. The individual person precludes it; as Romans says, instinct (in my opinion, consciousness of one's existence impinging on reason) demands monotheism, including an accounting for justice (centered on one source and judge), and a sovereign singular cause, an entity (which I call "First Cause, With Purpose"). The individual conscious being may not take it that specifically, but they know enough that, per Romans 1:20, they are without excuse.

ralliann said:

Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Immutability
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath

The covenant of circumcision concerns Abraham's sons from Isaac on.
Genesis 15 speaks to the seed of the fourth generation on. The covenant promises to all the seed of promises is immutable. The covenant which was made 430 after cannot disannul the promises of the Royal covenant.

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And what about this?

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

See Yakob a.k.a. James 2:21-24.

daq said:

And what about this?

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
had being yet uncircumcised.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

See Yakob a.k.a. James 2:21-24.

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What about it? We walk like Abraham walked, in hope and trust of the promises of God.
Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
I don't understand the distinction you are focused on.

Clare73 said:

Paul takes Genesis 15:6 at its word in Romans 4:2-3, not as an "earnest," nor as the result of good works or law keeping (Romans 3:21-24, Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11; Ephesians 2:9).
James 2:20-24 treats Abraham's "sacrifice" 15 years later as proof of the righteousness God reckoned/accounted/credited/imputed to him in Genesis 15:6.

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Well Abraham did keep the law of faith....which the oath sworn makes the promises immutable to it's heirs. Hence the law which came 430 years later Gen 15, could not disannul.

ralliann said:

I don't understand the distinction you are focused on.

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The distinction is in what mainstream theology teaches about imputation of righteousness. While it is true that one is accounted as righteous when first having believed: that is not the end-all, it's only the first step. There is a process. When we first believe we enter into the faith counted as heirs but we enter as babes likened to newborns, (rebirth as you no doubt know).

However then we undergo training and are under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father when a child becomes a son. Until that time the Torah is our schoolmaster or tutor into Messiah. That day is not known to anyone, but only the Father, and when that time of testing comes, and one overcomes, that is when faith has fully come. That is what I am getting at here and it's all taught in the N/T including the writings of Paul.

In the following passage below Paul is essentially saying the same thing as what I already quoted from Hebrews 10, explained from James 2, Genesis 15:6 and 22, and have just now explained herein above. All of the apostolic authors are in agreement on this.

The chapter break between Galatians 3&4 is misleading: it is still the same passage, and in fact the conclusion of what Paul says in Galatians 3 is cut off by the man-made chapter break because the conclusion is given in Galatians 4:1-2.

Galatians 3:23-4:2 ASV
23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.
01 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a bondservant though he is lord of all;
02 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed of the father.

Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Torah ~ Schoolmaster into/unto Messiah
Tutors and Governors ~ Prophets and Writings

TedT said:

No non-elect will receive this imputation of righteousness so from that pov it most certainly IS dependant of the person's relationship with GOD as HIS elect or as reprobate and condemned already..

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The Elect are condemned, because of their unbelief, until regeneration, wherefore they believe. Depending on your meaning of 'reprobate', you may as well say the elect are not reprobate, to which I say, of course, but 'elect' is not of itself a relationship.

daq said:

The distinction is in what mainstream theology teaches about imputation of righteousness.

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Agreed.

daq said:

While it is true that one is accounted as righteous when first having believed: that is not the end-all, it's only the first step. There is a process. When we first believe we enter into the faith counted as heirs but we enter as babes likened to newborns, (rebirth as you no doubt know).

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Agreed here too.

daq said:

However then we undergo training and are under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father when a child becomes a son. Until that time the Torah is our schoolmaster or tutor into Messiah.

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When we read about Abraham, Noah etc. We read Torah. We also fulfill what is written in Christ Jesus. The Children upon whom the promise has come in him. Gentiles as Gentiles are the seed of Abraham, as well as Jew's.

daq said:

That day is not known to anyone, but only the Father, and when that time of testing comes, and one overcomes, that is when faith has fully come. That is what I am getting at here and it's all taught in the N/T including the writings of Paul.

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What day are you talking about? We are all heirs of the heavenly kingdom along with the patriarchs in Christ. Abraham was tested and his faith made complete. We will undergo testing of trials in our faith as well.
Complete, lacking nothing........
Ge 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am
James 1:1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; {temptations: or, trials } 3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

See the above? Abraham was made complete lacking nothing in Genesis 22.

daq said:

In the following passage below Paul is essentially saying the same thing as what I already quoted from Hebrews 10, explained from James 2, Genesis 15:6 and 22, and have just now explained herein above. All of the apostolic authors are in agreement on this.
The chapter break between Galatians 3&4 is misleading: it is still the same passage, and in fact the conclusion of what Paul says in Galatians 3 is cut off by the man-made chapter break because the conclusion is given in Galatians 4:1-2.

Galatians 3:23-4:2 ASV
23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.
01 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a bondservant though he is lord of all;
02 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed of the father.

Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Torah ~ Schoolmaster into/unto Messiah
Tutors and Governors ~ Prophets and Writings

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We are no longer under that tutor.
What Galatians gives us is what Torah teaches in Genesis concerning two covenants spoken to Abraham.
Hear the TORAH as Paul teaches concerning the covenants.
The understanding of Galatians is of two covenants.
The women are an allegory for the heirs of each covenant.

Gen 15 Hagar 12 PRINCES. Blessed, fruitful, a great nation.
Ge 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Gen 17
Sarah KINGS
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

The Sinai covenant never established "kings" from Sarah. Nor did the Sinai covenant establish the throne of David.
Rather it gave law in the event that they would in the future set a king over them. No requirement concerning Judah! Sinai does not give the Promise of a sceptre to Judah. Saul was not from Judah.
Breaking up Galatians as you see fit, to another narrative is of no interest to me, nor has any ability to convince me. Read the covenants in light of what Paul is teaching there.
Begin with the facts stated in those covenants. It is Torah, the hearing of Torah as Paul informs you.
PRINCES AND KINGS as TORAH teaches. Then we can discuss.

Sinai gave 12 princes, heads of each tribe.
When did they become grown? When a prince becomes a ruling king succeeding his father.
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

daq said:

So fulfillment only means "proof" in your opinion? That's pleroo in James 2:23, which means to cram to the full, to completely fill up, to execute, to accomplish, to complete, to finish. Moreover you must ignore the actual context to extrapolate out of the text what you want Yakob to say so that he agrees with your doctrine(s).

Moreover how did you come up with only 15 years? Abraham was the son of a hundred years when Yitzhak was born: with inclusive reckoning that would be 101.

Moreover Yitzhak was weaned and a great feast was held at that time, (Genesis 21:8). Moreover Abraham lays the wood for the offering upon Yitzhak, in Genesis 22:6, and he carries it to the place of sacrifice. Moreover Abraham and Yitzhak are having a conversation in Genesis 22:7. Yitzhak is not an infant at the time of Gen 22. From my studies in the Torah, the Testimony of the Master, and the N/T apostolic writings, this would make Abraham about thirty.

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You are both ignoring Torah. Princes vs kings......
And the tempting (testing) of Abraham which made his faith entire, wanting for nothing.

ralliann said:

What day are you talking about? We are all heirs of the heavenly kingdom along with the patriarchs in Christ. Abraham was tested and his faith made complete. We will undergo testing of trials in our faith as well.

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The same day the scriptures are talking about in that context: the day when a child becomes a tried, true, and tested son. No father puts an untested child in charge of all his goods.

ralliann said:

See the above? Abraham was made complete lacking nothing in Genesis 22.

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Yes, that is the point is it not? And how much time passed between Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22?

ralliann said:

We are no longer under that tutor.

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Who is this "we"?

Galatians 1:1-2 ASV
1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead),
2 and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Have you perhaps assumed too much? Moreover I say that the heir, for as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he be master of all: but is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father.

ralliann said:

What Galatians gives us is what Torah teaches in Genesis concerning two covenants spoken to Abraham.
Hear the TORAH as Paul teaches concerning the covenants.
The understanding of Galatians is of two covenants.
The women are an allegory for the heirs of each covenant.

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I do believe I hear what Paul teaches concerning the two covenants: the one is of below, and that is Hagar the Egyptian, and in the Prophets Egypt surely represents the flesh and the things of the flesh and of below, (see Ezekiel 16:26, and do not neglect the entire passage context because it is extremely relevant to this topic). The other is the same in writing but viewed through the lens of the Testimony of the Torah, Prophets, Writings, and Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts. The Torah is spiritual just as Paul says in Romans 7:14.

Mosheh warns of the same, saying, See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil.......I call the heavens and the earth to record against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live...

The choice one must make is in HOW the scripture is to be heard, read, and understood. Therefore the Master says, Take heed therefore how you hear, (Luke 8:18a).

ralliann said:

You are both ignoring Torah. Princes vs kings......
And the tempting (testing) of Abraham which made his faith entire, wanting for nothing.

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You are making my point for me while denying it is my point, lol.

daq said:

The same day the scriptures are talking about in that context: the day when a child becomes a tried, true, and tested son. No father puts an untested child in charge of all his goods.

Yes, that is the point is it not? And how much time passed between Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22?

Who is this "we"?

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All the seed unto whom the promises come. Those in Christ Jesus, the Mediator of all the royal seed. In the disanulling of the carnal commandment. Circumcision in foreskin of the flesh no longer applies.

daq said:

Galatians 1:1-2 ASV
1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead),
2 and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Have you perhaps assumed too much? Moreover I say that the heir, for as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he be master of all: but is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father.



I do believe I hear what Paul teaches concerning the two covenants: the one is of below, and that is Hagar the Egyptian, and in the Prophets Egypt surely represents the flesh and the things of the flesh and of below, (see Ezekiel 16:26, and do not neglect the entire passage context because it is extremely relevant to this topic). The other is the same in writing but viewed through the lens of the Testimony of the Torah, Prophets, Writings, and Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts. The Torah is spiritual just as Paul says in Romans 7:14.

Mosheh warns of the same, saying, See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil.......I call the heavens and the earth to record against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live...

The choice one must make is in HOW the scripture is to be heard, read, and understood. Therefore the Master says, Take heed therefore how you hear, (Luke 8:18a).

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Hear TORAH
The two covenants can be understood by the women as an allegory. Who is assuming? Do you think Paul is?
Until you comply with acknowledging Pauls wisdom and understanding of Torah in the Covenants concerning twelve princes vs kings, it is a waste of time IMO.
You are simply rejecting, ignoring TORAH from the apostle Paul.