Imputed

visionary · Jun 17, 2022

Can someone please explain ...
"Imputed righteousness..... a concept in Christian theology proposing that the "righteousness of Christ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith even though practically they are still guilty of sinning." It is on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification.

bmjackson · Jun 17, 2022

According to the story of Abraham, faith in Christ is the entry level, or positioning of believers but impartation is required before they are really made one with Christ as we see when he is transformed on Mount Moriah.

Blade · Jun 17, 2022

Guilt.. another thing Christ took to the cross and died for

So what is righteousness.. right standing with God. How do we get righteousness... by believing in Jesus Christ. For we on this earth there is none righteous not one. Its what Christ did and our simple belief in Him. God sees us through Christ. Because Abraham believed God it was counted to him as righteousness "ABRAHAM BELIEVED IN (trusted, relied on) GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIS ACCOUNT AS RIGHTEOUSNESS (right living, right standing with God).”

There is no still guilty

Whom the son sets free is free indeed. We are the righteousness of God. As Isaac was we are the children of promise.

Jonaitis · Jun 17, 2022

visionary said:
Can someone please explain ...
"Imputed righteousness..... a concept in Christian theology proposing that the "righteousness of Christ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith even though practically they are still guilty of sinning." It is on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification.

Imputation is another word for "credited."

By faith, Christ credits His suffering to pay our debt, and His obedience to satisfy God's demand, so that we are declared innocent and righteous in the sight of God apart from our own efforts.

visionary · Jun 18, 2022

How far do you go before it is declared abused?

Yusuphhai · Jun 18, 2022

Only Abraham Knows exactly the meaning of "Faith" (Amen, Truth), and his seeds. The only way of Christian to become Abraham's seeds is to learn and imitate Abraham's Faith. Invent one's new concept of "faith" is not true. When he believes in/on the name of Jesus(the Seed of Abraham) sincerely(truly) he enters the gate of righteousness by faith. But know and understand more about Abraham's Monotheism is a long journey. The degree to understand what "Faith" means has different levels.

Yusuphhai · Jun 19, 2022

Why was Righteousness of Christ imputed to only Abraham at that time? Abraham was the only one who understood how to connect with One God. Why God is One but not two? Greek philosophy can not explain perfectly. Greek “logos”(logic) means positive and negative viewpoints argue. These are two, not one. It was impossible to understand exactly One God in Ancient Greece. Abraham understood the god of Sun and the god of Moon are self-contradictory and could not be coordinated well. But if Sun(positive) and Moon(negative) were two opposite sides of higher One God’s will, then the relationship between One God and sun&moon was concordant and united. Abraham understood much more than I, so I only state a little about his understanding. So Abraham understood what “One”(Echad) meant then he believed in (Amen)God truly. And also owned a friendly concordant and united relationship with God, so God’s righteousness was imputed to him and his seeds. If no Grace of God, Abraham also could not understand God by his struggles. Abraham’s Seed(Messiah Yeshua) was in him, and Abraham was in his Seed (Messiah Yeshua), so Christ’s Righteousness was imputed to Abraham and his seeds by the Seed (Memrah, Logos, Word, 道Dao).

Mark Quayle · Jun 19, 2022

Yusuphhai said:
Only Abraham Knows exactly the meaning of "Faith" (Amen, Truth), and his seeds. The only way of Christian to become Abraham's seeds is to learn and imitate Abraham's Faith. Invent one's new concept of "faith" is not true. When he believes in/on the name of Jesus(the Seed of Abraham) sincerely(truly) he enters the gate of righteousness by faith. But know and understand more about Abraham's Monotheism is a long journey. The degree to understand what "Faith" means has different levels.

Yusuphhai said:
Why was Righteousness of Christ imputed to only Abraham at that time? Abraham was the only one who understood how to connect with One God. Why God is One but not two? Greek philosophy can not explain perfectly. Greek “logos”(logic) means positive and negative viewpoints argue. These are two, not one. It was impossible to understand exactly One God in Ancient Greece. Abraham understood the god of Sun and the god of Moon are self-contradictory and could not be coordinated well. But if Sun(positive) and Moon(negative) were two opposite sides of higher One God’s will, then the relationship between One God and sun&moon was concordant and united. Abraham understood much more than I, so I only state a little about his understanding. So Abraham understood what “One”(Echad) meant then he believed in (Amen)God truly. And also owned a friendly concordant and united relationship with God, so God’s righteousness was imputed to him and his seeds. If no Grace of God, Abraham also could not understand God by his struggles. Abraham’s Seed(Messiah Yeshua) was in him, and Abraham was in his Seed (Messiah Yeshua), so Christ’s Righteousness was imputed to Abraham and his seeds by the Seed (Memrah, Logos, Word, 道Dao).

I'm having a hard time following the logic of your two posts here. That may be my fault, not being familiar with your mindset or worldview, and also being rather hesitant of wit, but I would appreciate if you could explain a little more clearly what you mean to say.

Maybe you can understand and agree with this thought: True faith is not the work of man, but the gift of God. Even small as a mustard seed, it is entirely real and true, being the work of God in a person, and not the work of that person. But yes, when you say that faith has different levels, that much rings true, because faith, though it is not generated by man, thoroughly involves those it inhabits, and is increased (or neglected) by a person's efforts and knowledge, and it is added to, according to Scripture. But I don't see that faith depends on understanding, but rather that it can be increased by understanding.

Also, while I can agree that in Ancient Greece, a theoretical or philosophical understanding of God could not be complete without true faith, I don't see that it was necessarily dualism in nature, but easily monotheistic. I contend that all good philosophical reductions are supported by Scripture, but that not all Scripture, at least as far as Philosophy has gone, is supported by Philosophy —that is to say, that not all Scriptural theological claims have been philosophically developed.

Mark Quayle · Jun 19, 2022

Yusuphhai said:
Why was Righteousness of Christ imputed to only Abraham at that time? Abraham was the only one who understood how to connect with One God. Why God is One but not two? Greek philosophy can not explain perfectly. Greek “logos”(logic) means positive and negative viewpoints argue. These are two, not one. It was impossible to understand exactly One God in Ancient Greece. Abraham understood the god of Sun and the god of Moon are self-contradictory and could not be coordinated well. But if Sun(positive) and Moon(negative) were two opposite sides of higher One God’s will, then the relationship between One God and sun&moon was concordant and united. Abraham understood much more than I, so I only state a little about his understanding. So Abraham understood what “One”(Echad) meant then he believed in (Amen)God truly. And also owned a friendly concordant and united relationship with God, so God’s righteousness was imputed to him and his seeds. If no Grace of God, Abraham also could not understand God by his struggles. Abraham’s Seed(Messiah Yeshua) was in him, and Abraham was in his Seed (Messiah Yeshua), so Christ’s Righteousness was imputed to Abraham and his seeds by the Seed (Memrah, Logos, Word, 道Dao).

I do not mean to misrepresent what you are saying, but your posts are a little obscure to me.

God's imputation of righteousness to man does by no means depend on the success or worth/virtue of man's relationship to God. It is done by God through the means of Christ's substitution, apart from man's activity, just as Adam's sin is imputed by God upon man, quite apart from man's actual sin.

Likewise, one's status with God is necessarily one of guilt (Adam's sin imputed), prior to the imputation of Christ's righteousness. One does not attain a status before God that God respects or is then able to build upon, before God can impute Christ's righteousness. The 'mechanics' of imputation, as according to Romans 5, necessarily denies any such level of worth or competence; the 'mechanics' of imputation, according to the whole of Scripture, depends on God's will alone, and Grace is the act of God alone, upon completely undeserving creatures.

ralliann · Jun 19, 2022

Yusuphhai said:
Why was Righteousness of Christ imputed to only Abraham at that time? Abraham was the only one who understood how to connect with One God.

I do not think this is true. Noah connected with God.
Waters of Noah....
1Peter 3:18 put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

A preacher of righteousness

2 Peter 2:3 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
An heir of the righteousness which is by faith....
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Lots of Good stuff in the covenant sworn unto all creation........

Isa 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

TedT · Jun 19, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
God's imputation of righteousness to man does by no means depend on the success or worth/virtue of man's relationship to God.

No non-elect will receive this imputation of righteousness so from that pov it most certainly IS dependant of the person's relationship with GOD as HIS elect or as reprobate and condemned already..

Mark Quayle · Jun 19, 2022

TedT said:
No non-elect will receive this imputation of righteousness so from that pov it most certainly IS dependant of the person's relationship with GOD as HIS elect or as reprobate and condemned already..

"Elect" is not a relationship, nor even a status attained, but what that person is in light of God's plan.

TedT · Jun 19, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
You are wiggling.

Leave your ad hominems out of this please.

daq · Jun 19, 2022

visionary said:
Can someone please explain ...
"Imputed righteousness..... a concept in Christian theology proposing that the "righteousness of Christ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith even though practically they are still guilty of sinning." It is on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification.

Hi Vis, I hope all is well with you. The epistle of Yakob a.k.a James expounds much more than most seem to realize. The statement from Genesis 15 is treated, (much like Paul), as an earnest until the time appointed when the initial faith or belief is tested and brought to fulfillment or completion. In the case with father Abraham this was many years later when he was tested in Genesis 22.

James 2:20-24 ASV
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; [Genesis 15:6] and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Abraham was justified by works in that he offered up his son: this is, of course, not until Genesis 22, even though the statement that his belief was accounted unto him for righteousness came many YEARS before that in Genesis 15:6.

Note what I highlighted and underlined in the above: Yakob says that the statement from Genesis 15:6 was FULFILLED in Genesis 22 when he was finally TESTED. He passed the test: his faith was tested, that is when the statement from Genesis 15:6 was fulfilled.

From the many things I have seen and heard people say about imputed righteousness I do not believe it even means the same thing anymore to the modern mainstream.

ralliann · Jun 19, 2022

daq said:
Hi Vis, I hope all is well with you. The epistle of Yakob a.k.a James expounds much more than most seem to realize. The statement from Genesis 15 is treated, (much like Paul), as an earnest until the time appointed when the initial faith or belief is tested and brought to fulfillment or completion. In the case with father Abraham this was many years later when he was tested in Genesis 22.

James 2:20-24 ASV
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; [Genesis 15:6] and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Abraham was justified by works in that he offered up his son: this is, of course, not until Genesis 22, even though the statement that his belief was accounted unto him for righteousness came many YEARS before that in Genesis 15:6.

Note what I highlighted and underlined in the above: Yakob says that the statement from Genesis 15:6 was FULFILLED in Genesis 22 when he was finally TESTED. He passed the test: his faith was tested, that is when the statement from Genesis 15:6 was fulfilled.

From the many things I have seen and heard people say about imputed righteousness I do not believe it even means the same thing anymore to the modern mainstream.

I agree much more than some realize.
What test did he pass? What does Genesis 15 say to Abraham in the covenant made in Genesis 15?
Abraham is going to die......
Ge 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
The fulfness or completion of Abes faith in the covenant established in Isaac tested his faith in the resurrection from the death he dies in Genesis 15.

Gensis 15 concerns the seed of the fourth generation of his seed.
Children of promise Gen 17............
Isaac (1st) generation
Jacob (2nd generation
Levi (3rd generation)
Nu 18:20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
Nu 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Nu 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Nu 26:62 And those that were numbered of them were twenty and three thousand, all males from a month old and upward: for they were not numbered among the children of Israel, because there was no inheritance given them among the children of Israel.
De 18:2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
See acts 7:5
Concerning Abraham
Ac 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

It's all about the resurrection from the dead......
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Mark Quayle · Jun 19, 2022

TedT said:
Leave your ad hominems out of this please.

my bad. and my apologies.

edit: I have removed it from that post.

Yusuphhai · Jun 19, 2022

Thank for your reply. I also have a hard time to discuss the relationship among Shem, Ham and Japheth.

The Covenant（Be-rit, Cut）of Noah was between God and the Earth. Noah the descendant of Adam(Dust) was a part and representative of the Earth. Noah became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. (Hebrew 11:7) . Abraham the descendant of Noah had higher understanding to the word “faith” (Amen). In Jewish explanation, Shem represents spirit(ruach) , Ham(Heat) represents body, Japheth represents soul. The cooperation of Noah’s family is the base of international peace. Why did Monotheism produce only by Shem’s descendant?

Monotheism is spiritual level. Ancient Greek logic can explained the union of argument of Positive and Negative viewpoints when the logic chain was perfect. But this was not spiritual level. Greek never produces Monotheism.

After the period of Noah, Humans level to understand and worship God fell down. Even no one understood why God is One. In <<Talmud>>, before Abraham believed in(Amen) God, he had a very hard research for the perfect logic chain of this problem. Before said ‘Amen”, he must test and verify whether God is One . This logic chain was not only philosophical, but also spiritual. “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!”, “May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,” （Genesis 9;26-27）. The tents were Shem’s spiritual home, Japheth needed know why God is One by living in Shem’s spiritual home.

Messianic Jewish opinion about the relationship between Grace and faith quotes Jewish spiritual living. On Yom Kippur (atonement day), only the high priest works in the most holy sanctuary, all Israeli wait outside holy temple, praying for Grace of God. On Passover , Israeli eat the lamb, through faith with working respond God’s Grace.

Yusuphhai · Jun 20, 2022

If one need Yeshua the Seed into his heart, he need know that Yeshua is the Seed of Abraham and establishes/fulfills the Covenant of Abraham (and Noah, Moses, David).Christian’s covenant of faith with God through the Seed of Abraham Yeshua is based on Abraham’s covenant of faith. God made a covenant with Abraham and his seed(descendants). None-Abraham’s seed(descendants) is far away from this covenant in different levels. In Apostle/Rabbi Paul/Saul’s theology, Only when Gentile believers are “grafted into” the root of true olive (Abraham’s faith), they become spiritual Abraham’s descendants(seed). Before the “grafted into” , they need be cut off from the original wild olive root, for example, none-Monotheism of Greek or Chinese. This progress can be painful and long, but necessary. The Righteousness in Yeshua Messiah’s level is only imputed to the True Olive, including the original branch Jewish and grafted wild olive branch Gentile believer. Unfortunately, I don’t think many Christians have deep relationship with Abraham’s covenant.

daq · Jun 20, 2022

ralliann said:
I agree much more than some realize.
What test did he pass? What does Genesis 15 say to Abraham in the covenant made in Genesis 15?
Abraham is going to die......
Ge 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
The fulfness or completion of Abes faith in the covenant established in Isaac tested his faith in the resurrection from the death he dies in Genesis 15.

Gensis 15 concerns the seed of the fourth generation of his seed.
Children of promise Gen 17............
Isaac (1st) generation
Jacob (2nd generation
Levi (3rd generation)
Nu 18:20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
Nu 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Nu 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Nu 26:62 And those that were numbered of them were twenty and three thousand, all males from a month old and upward: for they were not numbered among the children of Israel, because there was no inheritance given them among the children of Israel.
De 18:2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
See acts 7:5
Concerning Abraham
Ac 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

It's all about the resurrection from the dead......
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

What happened to Genesis 22 where Abraham was tested? I mentioned it several times from the passage I quoted in Yakob where he speaks of Abraham offering up Yitzhak. That is Genesis 22. The opening statement in that passage even says that Elohim tested or proved Abraham, (Genesis 22:1-2).

ralliann · Jun 20, 2022

Yusuphhai said:
Thank for your reply. I also have a hard time to discuss the relationship among Shem, Ham and Japheth.

The Covenant（Be-rit, Cut）of Noah was between God and the Earth. Noah the descendant of Adam(Dust) was a part and representative of the Earth. Noah became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. (Hebrew 11:7) . Abraham the descendant of Noah had higher understanding to the word “faith” (Amen). In Jewish explanation, Shem represents spirit(ruach) , Ham(Heat) represents body, Japheth represents soul. The cooperation of Noah’s family is the base of international peace. Why did Monotheism produce only by Shem’s descendant?

The covenant made with Noah is with all creation.

Yusuphhai said:
Monotheism is spiritual level. Ancient Greek logic can explained the union of argument of Positive and Negative viewpoints when the logic chain was perfect. But this was not spiritual level. Greek never produces Monotheism.

After the period of Noah, Humans level to understand and worship God fell down.

And they continued to fall down. Israel lapsed into Idolatry plenty. The covenant made with Noah sustains the creation in his mercy and kindness.

Yusuphhai said:
Even no one understood why God is One. In <<Talmud>>, before Abraham believed in(Amen) God, he had a very hard research for the perfect logic chain of this problem. Before said ‘Amen”, he must test and verify whether God is One . This logic chain was not only philosophical, but also spiritual. “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!”, “May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,” （Genesis 9;26-27）. The tents were Shem’s spiritual home, Japheth needed know why God is One by living in Shem’s spiritual home.

Shem's tent is enlarged by Japheth, many nation as Promised to Father Abraham.

Yusuphhai said:
Messianic Jewish opinion about the relationship between Grace and faith quotes Jewish spiritual living.

You mean Rabbinic sacraments?

Yusuphhai said:
On Yom Kippur (atonement day), only the high priest works in the most holy sanctuary, all Israeli wait outside holy temple, praying for Grace of God. On Passover , Israeli eat the lamb, through faith with working respond God’s Grace.

Passover is sacrifice and also a memorial feast of the fulfilment of the Promises made to Abraham concerning the covenant of the 4th generation.
The Passover keeps this command......
1Chr. 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; 16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; 17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, 18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; {the lot: Heb. the cord } 19 When ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it.

And this a Psalm of David.........for us all
1 O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people. 2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works. 3 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. 4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. 5 Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; 6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. 7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.

In Christ Jesus we keep his passover and the preaching of his Gospel to us...

8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. 9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Imputed

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Newbie

Veteran

Soli Deo Gloria

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

christian

Member since Job 38:7

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Member since Job 38:7

Messianic

christian

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

Messianic

christian

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