Salvation is a divine miracle

Ivan Hlavanda · Jun 6, 2022

Jesus said to Nicodemus, that unless one is born of water, and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus was referring to Ezekiel's prophecy of the new covenant, where you are washed with water, sanctified with water, stony sinful heart is taken out, God gives you a new heart of flesh, a living heart. This is all part of new covenant regeneration taken from Ezekiel.
You must be washed, you must be given a new heart, and then Ezekiel talks about the Spirit being planted in you. God does all of this by His own power. By His power He washes you, by His power He gives you a living heart, by His power He plants His Spirit in you. And unless that happens, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

John 3:6 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit' Flesh can only produce flesh, and sin can only produce sin. You are dependent on the Spiritual work of God. You have to be born again and people don't birth themselves. You can't enter the Kingdom of God, unless God in divine, sovereign power comes into your life and totally transforms it. All you can produce is flesh.

Born again...born from above. If you are not born again and you are asking like Nicodemus how you can do it, what do you must do to enter the Kingdom of God? Let's look at what Jesus says: John 3:8 The wind (Or the Spirit, pneuma) blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” The wind blows where it wills...what kind of answer is that? The Spirit blows where is wills, you don't know where it comes from and where it goes, so it is with everyone born of the Spirit. So what do you do? Nothing. There is nothing you can do. Salvation is grace, and grace is something no one deserves. We all deserve hell because we are all sinners. If sin was ocean, we are lying dead at the bottom of it. God must jump into to water and get to the bottom and give you a new life. You can do nothing, because you are dead.

All you can do is pray to God that He has mercy upon you sinner, if it is to His glory. Only God can save you, only He can give you life, only He can wash your sins from above, only He can give you a new heart. There is no hope other than God. It's not like some falsely teach, you must pray all these prayers, you must do all these things...where did Jesus say that? Jesus said you can do nothing about it, because you are spiritually dead. Jesus says this is a divine miracle. You can only cry for His mercy, and if it's to His glory He will save you. Jesus did not say 'you must say these prayers, or do these deeds in order to be saved' No, He said salvation is a divine miracle.

John 3:27 'John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.' All you can do is plead for God is to give you life.

Jesus also says in John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
But in verse 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
Who comes to Christ? The people that the Father determines to give to Christ, and those people are the ones He draws to Christ.

The problem that some don't believe is not not in divine sovereignty, the problem is in them not believing.

Some falsely teach today that salvation is like drowning in ocean and Jesus throws you a lifebuoy and you make the decision whether you take it or not. No, you are dead how can you take the wheel. Is not like God is trying and hoping you take it.

Romans 9 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. It does not matter how much you try in life, it does no matter what you do, because you cannot change God's mind, you cannot influence God with anything. What can you give Him that he owes you, or what can you do for Him? Nothing. There is nothing you can do for your salvation, just beg God He is merciful if He so wishes.

d taylor · Jun 6, 2022

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I believer the water birth is our physical birth (born of water). The very next verse points to this, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
As Jesus speaks to being born of flesh is flesh, the spiritual birth happens when a person trust in The Messiah (Jesus) for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

bling · Jun 6, 2022

You bring up a huge topic that need to be broken down, I can give you some specifics we can address:

You say: “God and Christ are not trying to save anybody”, but what could possibly be God’s reason for wanting to save just some? Is God lack of Love or God’s lack of power limiting His ability to save everyone or is it man limiting God?

The God, I know who is the epitome of Love, wants everyone to be saved, but not all humans will accept His help.

You said: “He knew them from the before the foundation of the earth, before they did anything either good or bad.” Yes, God is outside of time, so He knows who, of their own free will, accepted Him or rejected Him before time began.

The Bible supports strongly the all-powerful and all Loving God.

The question is how do you become “those who are His” or “remain those who are not His” without making it God’s very limited Love?

2 Thessalonians 2

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,

17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

God from the beginning of time chose to save everyone who would accept His forgiveness like those Christians in Thessalonica.

14 might better be read: He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The NIV leaves it contingent with “might”.

Read in context Thessalonians for in 2 Thess. 2:10 …They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

If they can get to the point of not refusing and willing to accept God’s Love they will be saved. This does not say: “they perish because God did not save them”, making it God’s fault, but something they did not do makes it heir fault and after they refuse and do not accept God sends them a dilution.

There is no “verse” that states specifically: “Man has free will to accept or reject God’s help”, but we have lots of examples and parables which are hard to interpret any other way than the choice being up to the individual. So, is there a verse which states man does not have the free will ability to accept or reject God’s help sometime and not just: “sometimes it appears some men can’t express faith in God”, but that does not mean they might have in the past?

Yes, we do have specific times God chose people, but these people had the right disposition so God could work with them, even Jacob before birth showed a disposition God could work with, while Esau did not have a disposition God could work with, but that does not mean Esau himself went to hell.

Those invited to the banquets had a choice so God the father is inviting some who refuse to come.

We are to present the Gospel to all men.. all men are invited to come. Men will be held responsible for not coming.. but the faith needed to come is a spiritual gift not given to all men ...the nature man (without the intervention of God) will never hear or desire to come..

Where does in ever say: “a spiritual gift not given to all men”? Which has nothing to do with the desire to come?

Where does it say: “The faith needed to come was not provided by God to the individual” and not mean the individual did not place his, God given, faith in God, but used the faith he had for self and/or other gods?

It would be total unjust to hold individuals responsible for not doing something, if God did not provide them with the capability to do it. You do not need some real “ability” to accept an invitation to a wonderful, gracious party you could never deserve to be at and everything is provided.

Faith is a gift all mature adults have, but they have got to direct that faith toward God. The Bible talks of trusting and putting faith in thing other than God, so all mature adults have that kind of god given faith.

Can you show me where all men have a saving faith is generally distributed to ALL men?

We know all mature adults can place their “faith” in something or someone (even themselves), so faith is existing in all mature adults. The way we know this “faith” can be directed toward God’s Love is the fact all mature adults are held accountable for placing faith in God’s Love and to refuse God’s Love is to result in punishment. You would not be held accountable unless you could express such faith.

1. God predestined prior to man’s time beginning to save all those who humbly accept His charity, but not individuals by name, some time after but it could be before human time God at the beginning of human time knows all who accepted His charity.

2. A newly conceived baby starts out in a “safe” condition not needing to be saved, because the baby has not sinned, yet.

3. Shortly after reaching the age of accountability the person rebelliously disobeys God (sins) and is in need of salvation.

4. The person becomes hell bound, without reason to “Love” God and the desire for the perceived pleasures of sin makes God, his/her hated enemy.

5. Sins (acts of hurting others) burdens the person’s heart for at least a while (until the heart becomes hard)?

6. The actions of the person put them in a deadly spiral of hurt with no way to personally rescue themselves.

7. The person attempts to seek and find an escape.

8. The truth about their enemy God is presented to him/her while they are spiraling down to the pigsty of life at times they come to their senses, so they have the opportunity to make an autonomous free will choice to be macho, hang in there, pay the piper and be willing to accept the punishment they fully deserve or they can wimp out, give up on self and surrender to their enemy in hopes/trust/faith of just the possibility the enemy might provide undeserved charity.

9. God showers the person who is still hating Him, with unbelievable wonderful gifts including eternal life, Love, fellowship, new friends, new family, purpose, and a home in heaven.

10. As a result of this Godly type Love and out of gratitude for all these wonderful gifts the person wants to join God’s army, be obedient to God, be baptized, be His child, accept being crucified with Christ (God’s Loving disciplining) and Love others.

11. With this new Godly type Love and with the little faith the person has shown, the Love and faith can now grow with use, to be more and more like Christ.

Ivan Hlavanda · Jun 8, 2022

@bling

Those who were appointed to Eternal life believed" Acts 13:48

Sinners are totally unable to obey the Gospel of God, unless God intervenes by grace to free them from sin. When the Bible speaks of sinners condition, it usually speaks in the language of death. Sometimes darkness, incurable sickness etc. And the Bible is clear that this effects the mind, the body, the emotion, the desire, the motive, the will, the behaviour, and it is a condition that is so powerful no sinner unaided by the power of God can over come it.

Ephesians 2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind

By nature = by birth. We inherited a corrupt nature from Adam. Paul wrote that in Adam we all died. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul wrote that we all inherited death. This is the corruption of original sin. We are sinners by nature, by birth. If anything is to change this, is the grace for God. Eph 2 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved. This is a divine miracle in which God makes dead alive. God is not hoping dead will respond because they can't, God commands and a dead person lives, both physical and spiritual.

Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. It is a conditions in which a sinner cannot recover on his own.

Colossians 2:14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses. God commands, and life comes. When Jesus commanded dead Lazarus to come out, there was nothing alive in Lazarus to respond. We are a race of Lazarus's, God commands and gives us life to respond. It is not as you say we respond, there is nothing in us to respond. God must give you a new heart, wash you of sins and plant His Spirit in you for you to respond.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Salvation is the work of God.

Flesh can only produce flesh, we can't give ourselves life. The Spirit gives life to whom He will, and you can see when it happens but you cannot make it happen.

John 5 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Spirit and Son are in agreement. It is a work of divine sovereign power.

John 8 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. It is the work of Son, the Spirit and the Father who draws. In none of these texts did Jesus defend the sinner's ability nor his free will. Yes, the sinner has will is activated by the Spirit of salvation but it is not free. All sinners are the living dead. Their hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Sinners mind are heart are corrupt in every way, it is also unable and incapable to respond.

Romans 8 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. The sinner is unwilling to acknowledge God on his own, he is unable to acknowledge Gospel. No man can say Jesus is the Lord but by the Spirit.

And about children...no one is innocent, not even unborn children, even they need Jesus. The whole world rejected God the Father. Will God send people for rejecting Jesus of whom they never heard of? Of course not. So do we not have to worry about them? Of course we do! Their destination is hell for they one they heard of, because as Paul says in Romans 1 is that every human being has heard of God, knows of God, and rejects that knowledge. And because of that he lives every moment of his life under God's wrath and the only possible way he can be rescued from that wrath, is through the Saviour.

bling · Jun 8, 2022

Ivan Hlavanda said:
@bling

Those who were appointed to Eternal life believed" Acts 13:48

Why would it have to mean named particular individuals who are “appointed to eternal Life believed” and not everyone who accepts God’s charity as charity are appointed to eternal life?

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Sinners are totally unable to obey the Gospel of God, unless God intervenes by grace to free them from sin. When the Bible speaks of sinners condition, it usually speaks in the language of death. Sometimes darkness, incurable sickness etc. And the Bible is clear that this effects the mind, the body, the emotion, the desire, the motive, the will, the behaviour, and it is a condition that is so powerful no sinner unaided by the power of God can over come it.

You are starting with “obeying” which we both agree requires God’s intervention, but go further back before obeying, when the person is an unbelieving sinner and what that person can do.

I agree the unbelieving sinner can do nothing noble, honorable, worthy, righteous and/or holy, but the sinner can choose to do one selfish act over another selfish act (sins) and thus be responsible for these choices. Therefore the sinner can for selfish (sinful) reason choose of his own free will, to wimp out, give up and surrender to his hated enemy (God) while he/she is still hating God be willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from their enemy (this is like what we see with the prodigal son). This seemingly selfish act allows God to shower the person with unbelievable wonderful gifts including Godly type Love.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Ephesians 2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind

Again, the father of the prodigal son, twice calls the young son “dead” even after realizing the son is physically alive. While the son in this dead state (dead by Christ’s definition) could still turn to the father.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
By nature = by birth. We inherited a corrupt nature from Adam. Paul wrote that in Adam we all died. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul wrote that we all inherited death. This is the corruption of original sin. We are sinners by nature, by birth. If anything is to change this, is the grace for God. Eph 2 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved. This is a divine miracle in which God makes dead alive. God is not hoping dead will respond because they can't, God commands and a dead person lives, both physical and spiritual.

I just went over Deity’s definition of dead and what you can do in that dead state. As far as Adam and Eve goes: With the nature Adam and Eve had, the programing God gave them and with only one way to sin they sinned. Today we are raised to maturity by earthly parents, do not start out in a Garden, have a ton of ways to sin and we sin after the age of accountability. Why does our nature have to change to sin? Is death bad in and of itself?

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. It is a conditions in which a sinner cannot recover on his own.

Colossians 2:14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses. God commands, and life comes. When Jesus commanded dead Lazarus to come out, there was nothing alive in Lazarus to respond. We are a race of Lazarus's, God commands and gives us life to respond. It is not as you say we respond, there is nothing in us to respond. God must give you a new heart, wash you of sins and plant His Spirit in you for you to respond.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Salvation is the work of God.

Flesh can only produce flesh, we can't give ourselves life. The Spirit gives life to whom He will, and you can see when it happens but you cannot make it happen.

John 5 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Spirit and Son are in agreement. It is a work of divine sovereign power.

John 8 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. It is the work of Son, the Spirit and the Father who draws. In none of these texts did Jesus defend the sinner's ability nor his free will. Yes, the sinner has will is activated by the Spirit of salvation but it is not free. All sinners are the living dead. Their hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Sinners mind are heart are corrupt in every way, it is also unable and incapable to respond.

Romans 8 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. The sinner is unwilling to acknowledge God on his own, he is unable to acknowledge Gospel. No man can say Jesus is the Lord but by the Spirit.

All these are wonderful verses concerning people before and after they have the power to do something righteous, but I explained what the unrighteous person can selfishly choose to do, which allow God to shower them with gifts.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
And about children...no one is innocent, not even unborn children, even they need Jesus. The whole world rejected God the Father. Will God send people for rejecting Jesus of whom they never heard of? Of course not. So do we not have to worry about them? Of course we do! Their destination is hell for they one they heard of, because as Paul says in Romans 1 is that every human being has heard of God, knows of God, and rejects that knowledge. And because of that he lives every moment of his life under God's wrath and the only possible way he can be rescued from that wrath, is through the Saviour.

Do you believe the unborn child is hell bound?

Jonah 4: 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left

Do you believe God has concern for those who do not have much knowledge?

What happens if these people God has concern for, die?

BNR32FAN · Jun 8, 2022

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Some falsely teach today that salvation is like drowning in ocean and Jesus throws you a lifebuoy and you make the decision whether you take it or not. No, you are dead how can you take the wheel. Is not like God is trying and hoping you take it.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
There is nothing you can do for your salvation, just beg God He is merciful if He so wishes.

Taking the buoy is symbolic to praying and asking God for help. Also there are examples of God trying to save those who still refuse to repent. Romans 2:4-5 and John 5:34 are two examples.

BNR32FAN · Jun 8, 2022

Ivan Hlavanda said:
God is not hoping dead will respond because they can't, God commands and a dead person lives, both physical and spiritual.

You say the dead can’t respond yet you say we were all dead and you say that we should pray and beg God for mercy. That prayer for mercy is a response. Paul taught that the gospel is the power unto salvation meaning that the gospel has the power to elicit a response in those who receive it. Jesus also said “ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened”. This is referring to repentance. Those who are willing repent will be granted God’s grace.

def · Jun 12, 2022

d taylor said:
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I believer the water birth is our physical birth (born of water). The very next verse points to this, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
As Jesus speaks to being born of flesh is flesh, the spiritual birth happens when a person trust in The Messiah (Jesus) for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Unless you are born of water and spirit - Jesus is referring to spiritual birth (born again) and the event requires water (the symbol of the Holy Spirit) and spirit (a person's spirit). Born again, the spirit of a person lives. Indeed, Jesus is referring to Ezekiel's prophecy.

BBAS 64 · Jun 14, 2022

def said:
Unless you are born of water and spirit - Jesus is referring to spiritual birth (born again) and the event requires water (the symbol of the Holy Spirit) and spirit (a person's spirit). Born again, the spirit of a person lives. Indeed, Jesus is referring to Ezekiel's prophecy.

Good Day, Def

Agreed:

EZE 26 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and obey my rules.

We see that God takes action.. He gives, removes, and puts in. His actions have a purpose we walk and obey. He is the cause we are affected according to his purposes in acting, these effects are an objective reality as his purposes (for His actions) cannot be thwarted.

Simple cause (GOD) and effect.

We do repent and believe, YES God is the cause. It is a miracle preformed by God Himself.

In Him,

Bill

friend of · Jun 15, 2022

I believe God's grace can be actively resisted. From my own experience, I've seen that to be the case. That doesn't make God impotent in any way.

BBAS 64 · Jun 16, 2022

friend of said:
I believe God's grace can be actively resisted. From my own experience, I've seen that to be the case. That doesn't make God impotent in any way.

Good Day, friend of

Did Gid know his grace would be successfully resisted before he extended it or only after it was resisted (by a stronger force) then he learned.

What is the purpose in God extending His Grace "(I've seen that to be the case)"

In Him,

Bill

Trivalee · Jun 18, 2022

d taylor said:
-

I believer the water birth is our physical birth (born of water). The very next verse points to this, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
As Jesus speaks to being born of flesh is flesh, the spiritual birth happens when a person trust in The Messiah (Jesus) for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Do we have eternal life now or is it a "promise" that will be fulfilled in the future?

d taylor · Jun 18, 2022

Trivalee said:
Do we have eternal life now or is it a "promise" that will be fulfilled in the future?

Believers have Eternal Life the moment they trust in The Messiah.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Trivalee · Jun 19, 2022

d taylor said:
Believers have Eternal Life the moment they trust in The Messiah.
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I don't think so.

Eternal Life means endless life and, so long as we remain in the flesh and susceptible to death, we don't have it yet. On the contrary, Eternal life is God's promise that will be given to the faithful at the rapture/resurrection when we receive our spiritual body and become immortal.

d taylor · Jun 19, 2022

Trivalee said:
I don't think so.

Eternal Life means endless life and, so long as we remain in the flesh and susceptible to death, we don't have it yet. On the contrary, Eternal life is God's promise that will be given to the faithful at the rapture/resurrection when we receive our spiritual body and become immortal.

None of these verse state that Eternal Life is a gift later acquired years after a person believes. If you have a verse stating this post it.

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Has everlasting life not will eventually have everlasting life.

Salvation is a divine miracle

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