Okay, I thought you might have meant that. That's an interesting section of scripture. Revelation in general is pretty fun, IMO; I like guessing at the symbolism.
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Has anyone been thru a Mormon temple?
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check out this amazing site...
www.exmormon.org
i thought i knew alot about mormonism until i checked it out
www.exmormon.org
i thought i knew alot about mormonism until i checked it out
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Wrigley
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Yesterday at 02:21 PM jodrey said this in Post #455
I thought what Wrigley meant is that we've been saying much the same thing except in different words. Was I wrong in that?
Should I think that your reading comprehension is lower than I give you credit for? I've stated repeatedly on this and other Mormon threads that when we start at a different definitional foundation level, even though we use the same words, the meaning is totally different. Our foundational difference is who God is.
I'll look at rest this afternoon if I have time.
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straightforward
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you had said:
And I was explaining that the 'men' you say would be leading the church (I took that to mean pastors) are supposed to be lead by God...but not through seeing stones! Also, all of these would also use the bible (and the bible alone) as the final authority.
It's beautiful!
That's what I do! His word is very comprehensible when the light of the Spirit is shinning on it! He gives me everything I need to know about Him...everything else will be known when I see Him in Heaven. 
OK...but I see J.S. as an 'ear-tickler'...not a true prophet of God! He and his teachings would be what Paul is writting about in verse 14! I am to weigh all teachings against the word of God...and his doesn't match up.
Actually...many things that have been brought up contradict what mormons believe! When asked directly you have a way of either twisting what is being said or ignoring the question altogether.
salvation...covered, nature of God...touched upon, free will...touched upon (you really didn't seem to like my answer about that), atonement...covered, baptism...covered, scripture...covered...alot, prophets...please see discussions on FALSE prophets, heaven & hell...covered! Laws of justice & mercy...don't know what you mean by this, opposition in all things...don't know what you mean by this either, fall of man...touched on this in the salvation parts but we didn't get into what you believe (and I know some of what you believe and it doesn't match up with scripture so why even go into the mormon sci-fi version?), priesthood...started to but I think we might be on two different meanings of the same word so I didn't touch it, spirit world...this could mean alot of different things...what is your meaning?
I think we've covered a lot of what you say we haven't...where were you?
Actually...if you study a little further you would see that these are not 'seeing stones' they were more like lots. They were used for yes/no answers (one meant yes...one meant no). I don't really care how J.S. described them to justify himself.
Because you have stated that you are looking for answers.
BTW...I've already talked to the missionaries in my search for the answers...they didn't have them.
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Okay then.
I see where you are coming from then, but these pastors only claim to be led by the Bible, I think. If they claimed to lead the Church directly by the Spirit then they'd be prophets, and they don't claim to be. Prophets receive revelation for the Church, effectively adding scripture for the perfection of the saints. Pastors do not claim to do this. A seer uses seeing stones. For mentions of seers, see 1 Samuel 9: 9, 19; 2 Samuel 15: 27; 24: 11; 2 Kings 17: 13; 1 Chronicles 9: 22; 25: 5; 2 Chronicles 9: 29; 12: 15; 16: 7; 29: 30; 33: 18; 35: 15; Isaiah 29: 10; 30: 10; and Amos 7: 12. So, what is a seer, and how is a seer different than a prophet? The answer is that prophets receieve revelation, but seers receive revelation through a Urim and Thummim, which are seeing stones.
So then we can't know Him until we're resurrected?
Well, this is something that we're talking out now. Do his revelations really match up? I have found that they do; you have found that they don't. I can say the same thing about all the other churches I see. Who is correct? Let's find out. (Whenever I see "J.S." I think of Bach... You really have a way of confusing people.
)I disagree. Remember, the Bible is incomplete and doesn't spell out each and every doctrine as thoroughly as it should. The teachings of the Church don't actually contradict the Bible, although there is much latter-day revelation of doctrine that simply isn't in the Bible. This doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it more. I'm sorry if I appeared to ignore or twist anything. Remember, I'm not perfect and don't know all the answers. I'll try to answer things the best I can.
No, no, you miss my point. The only way these have been talked about is in how I'm wrong about them, not about the way they actually are. I haven't seen anyone go into detail about them. What is God's plan? How does the fall of Adam relate? Why is it necessary for the atonement to take place? Where did we come from? Why does the gospel work the way it does? Questions like these have not been addressed. The plan of God has not been explained.
You mean like a Magic 8 Ball? What is your reference for these being lots? No detailed description of them is given in the OT. Let's assume for a minute that they are 'lots.' Why would seeing stones then be so ridiculous a concept? Both would be means of using an object to obtain revelation. ...?
I said that I was looking for the answers others give. I wanted to compare and see what the beliefs of others are. That doesn't necessarily mean that I don't think I have the correct answers.
I can imagine. Did you do as they asked? Did you a) read the Book of Mormon, b) think seriously about the message, and c) pray with an open mind, having faith in Christ, in humility, to know whether the message is true? Some how I think you didn't. The missionaries aren't there to prove anything; they propose a way you can know a truth. If you don't try the experiment then you can have no basis for stating whether the message is true or false. If it is false then you have nothing to fear and should try the experiment.
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Wrigley
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If you are looking for what others think, I recommend a couple books to you. Both are by James White.
First title is "Is the Mormon my brother?" the second is "Letters to a Mormon Elder." In them White tells you what a Christian believes. You should find these books interesting. I challenge you to read them.
Since you like the arguement as a way to prove that the BoM is true, I would challenge you again to read those two books I mentioned above to you.
1. Read "Is the Mormon my brother?"
2. think seriously about the message.
3. pray with an open mind, having faith in Christ, in humility, to know whether the message that James White shares is true.
I've read alot of the BoM, the D&C, the PoGP. I've suspended my disbelief while reading them And God lead me to disregard them as lies.
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Jodrey, I have read the book of mormon, thought seriously about it, and prayed about it with a totally open heart and mind. The fact is, God did not answer me letting me know in ANY way that the book of mormon was true. I hope you do not respond with, "Well try again and try harder."
This experiment is flawed. I tried it and it did not produce the expected conclusion, so they tell me to try it over and over again until I get a response. This is not a valid way to experiment.
Another thing, I know that the missionaries want you to try their experiment and only their experiment. They do not want you looking deep into their church history. Why is this? They tell you it is because (essentially), "You aren't ready to know those things." Well, I found out why the missionaries were trained to stay off of these topics. They are told to stay away from blood atonement, the documented history of J.S., polygamy, the curse of the black people, etc., because they can not give a good defense of these things. My experiment involves more than feeling, it also involves logic. My experiment was the only one that produced any kind of answer.
Also, I hope that you do not automatically presume that because I did not conclude that mormonism is the Way, that I was not sincere enough. I was 100% sincere and devoted to finding the truth. Do not let yourself use the easy copout that I just did not try hard enough.
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calgal
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Today at 04:43 PM jodrey said this in Post #465
Okay then.
I see where you are coming from then, but these pastors only claim to be led by the Bible, I think. If they claimed to lead the Church directly by the Spirit then they'd be prophets, and they don't claim to be. Prophets receive revelation for the Church, effectively adding scripture for the perfection of the saints. Pastors do not claim to do this. A seer uses seeing stones. For mentions of seers, see 1 Samuel 9: 9, 19; 2 Samuel 15: 27; 24: 11; 2 Kings 17: 13; 1 Chronicles 9: 22; 25: 5; 2 Chronicles 9: 29; 12: 15; 16: 7; 29: 30; 33: 18; 35: 15; Isaiah 29: 10; 30: 10; and Amos 7: 12. So, what is a seer, and how is a seer different than a prophet? The answer is that prophets receieve revelation, but seers receive revelation through a Urim and Thummim, which are seeing stones.
So then we can't know Him until we're resurrected?
Well, this is something that we're talking out now. Do his revelations really match up? I have found that they do; you have found that they don't. I can say the same thing about all the other churches I see. Who is correct? Let's find out. (Whenever I see "J.S." I think of Bach... You really have a way of confusing people.
I disagree. Remember, the Bible is incomplete and doesn't spell out each and every doctrine as thoroughly as it should. The teachings of the Church don't actually contradict the Bible, although there is much latter-day revelation of doctrine that simply isn't in the Bible. This doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it more. I'm sorry if I appeared to ignore or twist anything. Remember, I'm not perfect and don't know all the answers. I'll try to answer things the best I can.
No, no, you miss my point. The only way these have been talked about is in how I'm wrong about them, not about the way they actually are. I haven't seen anyone go into detail about them. What is God's plan? How does the fall of Adam relate? Why is it necessary for the atonement to take place? Where did we come from? Why does the gospel work the way it does? Questions like these have not been addressed. The plan of God has not been explained.
You mean like a Magic 8 Ball? What is your reference for these being lots? No detailed description of them is given in the OT. Let's assume for a minute that they are 'lots.' Why would seeing stones then be so ridiculous a concept? Both would be means of using an object to obtain revelation. ...?
I said that I was looking for the answers others give. I wanted to compare and see what the beliefs of others are. That doesn't necessarily mean that I don't think I have the correct answers.
I can imagine. Did you do as they asked? Did you a) read the Book of Mormon, b) think seriously about the message, and c) pray with an open mind, having faith in Christ, in humility, to know whether the message is true? Some how I think you didn't. The missionaries aren't there to prove anything; they propose a way you can know a truth. If you don't try the experiment then you can have no basis for stating whether the message is true or false. If it is false then you have nothing to fear and should try the experiment.
Jodrey:
I did read the Book of Mormon and was a temple recommend holding Mormon (in good standing by the measure of that group) until I went to the Lord directly and asked Him if I was on the right path spiritually. He gave me a very strong NO (not the answer I expected or wanted at the time) and led me out of your church. The Lord is a gentleman and waits for us to inquire of Him. He also does not use feelings which are not backed up from the Word of God (OT & NT). Faith and Fact are the building blocks since Feelings are easy to counterfeit. You can feel good about a cup of coffee (works for me) or a song on the radio, a sunset, a commercial on TV, a puppy romping on the lawn, children playing or the perceived happiness of others. The last feeling is the dangerous one and here is why: I went to a presentation for a multi level marketing group with a couple friends. The speaker and the audience plants did everything they could to induce a feeling of "this is the best chance I have to make it" in the audience. The company has since been shut down by the Feds for fraud. At the time the presentation was made, it looked to an unwary observer like a good thing. It felt good so it must be authentic. If one pursued Trek Alliance's plan, being out several hundred dollars or more would be the least damage done. And this same presentation style is used by the LDS Missionaries. I bought into this and am still dealing with the damages to this day.
JRR Tolkien put it best: "Not all that glitters is gold, not all who wander are lost..." (Fellowship of the Ring).
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Your last paragraph is interesting. If you "suspend" your disbelief then you cannot really be sincere since that implies some level of pride. You cannot just forget something and plan to go back to it later because that is not true humility. Unless you acknowledge that you are not sure and need the guidance of God to know the truth (see James 1: 5) you will not gain the testimony of the Spirit. This is not the type of experiment you go about with the state of mind being, "Well, I have my belief, but I'll give it a go anyway." That is not open; that is not humble. You also omitted the process I have described. How did God lead you believe the message as a lie and how do you know it was God who confirmed it?
As for the rest of your post, your suggestion won't work for two reasons. 1) As part of the knowledge I have received, entailed is the commandment not to leave the path by derogative works; through doubt is Satan's way found and followed. 2) The books you mention are regressive in nature, not progressive; they exist for the express purpose of refuting a set of beliefs, not promoting another. The Church is a progression and augmentation of existing belief. To accept the Church is not to doubt Christ. You believe in Christianity as a whole; each denomination is basically the same. The common belief is that of the Redeemer, and this is the only defining quality of general Christianity. By exercising the experiment in faith is not to doubt the Savior, but rather to see if He has more to teach you. This is the one principle you profess beyond all others and it defines your religion. This is not all there is to my religion and to try another doctrine would be a regression from that which I know is right. Do you have something that promotes your faith rather than that which degrades another? If so, then yes, I will read and pray about it. I will ask in faith and humility, "What may I learn from this?" (This is what the Church teaches that those who are spiritually able should do.) If it is the absolute truth then I will be answered that it is all true. Is there something wrong with my reasoning here?
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It has nothing to do with trying; it has to do with acknowledgment of weakness and a condition of humility. I do not know your exact case so I can't state exactly why you did not get an answer; however, most likely, neither can you; it's something only God knows. I will say though, that it is not uncommon that a convert has at first not had a successful outcome. A good friend of mine, who just returned from a mission, did not receive a confirmation the first time he prayed regarding the Book of Mormon. It was not until several years later when another family member reintroduced him to the Church that he finally became humble enough that he was able to hear the answer. There's more to it than wanting an answer. Sometimes we're simply not ready. I can tell you that there have been times when I have prayed sincerely for things; whether it was to get an answer, even regarding the truthfulness of the Church, or for a certain blessing, or for forgiveness of sins; sometimes I have not gotten an answer on these issues. Sometimes asking and not receiving led me to more doubt. I see now that with every one of those instances it was pride or doubt that held me back; pride that I already knew or had all I needed or that I could simply ask and be given, without obeying commandments or being grateful; doubt in that I would not receive an answer. Now I have had many personal revelations and experiences in which I have been touched by the Spirit. I remember my vain exercises of prayer and the search for truth and what held me back. Look back at your experience. What was it that held you back?
There are entire books written on Church history. Members are encouraged to learn about it. There are courses at BYU and other Church universities devoted to the study; it is discussed in Sunday school and there are Church history Institute classes taught around the world. Missionaries are not trained to argue any point; they are there to teach people how to learn through the Spirit. If they sit down and take time to literally argue doctrine with you then they are going against the directions of their mission presidents and the leaders of the Church. If you want to argue doctrine then go to one of the several LDS apologetics sites found on the internet or read the many books written regarding the word of the Bible in comparison to the 1st century Christian Church and the Latter-day Church, and how other denominations compare; read about the archaelogical and anthropological research done by FARMS, SHIELDS, and FAIR. I find apologetics fascinating; however, I would not attempt to convert a person with apologetics. Remember Jesus' words to Peter: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." There is no man, not even Jesus the Christ Himself, that can convert; nor can historical facts, complex logic, nor the sole writ of scripture, but the the power of the Holy Ghost given to us through the Father (see John 5: 30-37). Every Christian I have ever met denies this; only the Mormons give strict regard to this precept of witness of God and not of men.
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calgal
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Humility is an interesting term for you to use. You assume only active Mormons who are willing to jump through the manmade hoops your church leaders create and alter at will are humble. That is an amazingly arrogant leap of logic. The feelings generated by your six discussions can be duplicated by ordinary life events. When I am taught anything at church, the facts behind the teachings are discussed and a testimony (in terms you use) is generated through the following: The Grace of God (via Jesus' death on the cross), faith and fact. Feeling is nice but not a substitute for verifiable information from the Word of God. The Mormon additions to the Word are not verifiable at all. Not one city, curelom or other artifact exists that the keystone of your faith describes. In addition, many chapters and verses from the 1611 KJV are plagarized in your book. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three beings in one body. For a parallel, think of an egg. The eggshell, egg yolk and egg white all exist as separate entities in their natural state. You think of an egg as a single unit though.
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rnmomof7
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Might it be that He is right and the reason his breast does not burn is because the BOM is a fictional book about fictional people and the Holy Spirit is leading him into all truth.
You assume that he is wrong and you are right..but it might be just the opposite might it not?
I have met ex mormons that say they felt guilty about not having a sign , that they did not want to let down friends or family so they lied and said they had a sign when there was none.
Thr LDS uses all marnner of psycological controls ..this is jsut another..
See Jodrey my breast burns when God speaks to me through His word in the bible. His grace has knocked me to my knees ..
So who's experience is true.....yours or mine?
That is what God intended us to use our heads and not just seek after signs..
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Should you not have prayed in the first place to know the truth before stating you had a testimony and then accepting baptism? What was it that sent you to the temple? Were or are you married? Did you serve a mission? Why did you answer in interview that you had a firm testimony of the Restoration if you did not really have one?
I adamantly disagree. Have you ever been "pricked" in your heart? I know I have. Acts 2: 36-37, speaking of the Pentecost, says, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Was it scripture that softened the hearts of those that heard? I'm sure the Christians of the time had quoted at them before, as is recorded in the New Testament, but it had no effect; it usually doesn't. Were the scribes, Pharisees, and Sadduees converted by the prophesies fulfilled in Christ? Scripture tells us that they weren't. If anything, it made them more hostile. Luke 4: 8-15 records the parable of those who receive the seed into the different types of ground. Verse 15 reads, "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." I don't see anything about comparing scriptures or logical analyis, only mention of an honest and good heart. Moreover, Luke 24: 32 says, "And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" Does this sound familiar? D&C 9: 8 says, "But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." It appears that this concept was not foreign to the early disciples of Christ. Was this concept explicitly taught in the times of Christ? I think so. Paul wrote in Romans 10: 10 that "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Galatians 4: 6 says, "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Here it looks as if the Spirit speaks to our hearts. There is sufficient evidence in scripture that we are to know Christ through our feelings; our hearts; our spirits themselves, and not through physical means. The same is given to know His Church. The heart by itself can be deceived, but not the Spirit, for the Spirit speaks to both heart and mind. Every instance of personal witness by the Spirit I have had was accompanied by the knowledge that the feeling is from God. At times there was not much burning or pricking of the heart, but simply sudden and pure knowledge, as if I had just remembered something I had forgotten my whole life, yet it was as sure as if I had known it forever. There are various ways in which the Spirit speaks to us: sometimes through powerful emotions, sometimes knowledge, sometimes events, sometimes through others, and sometimes actual words, whether physically heard or mentally impressed. If one saw an angel, must that convince them of the Christ? Would that confirm the truth?
There is a wonderful short new movie just released by the Church (the name has escaped me at the moment). In it, the apostle Thomas discusses faith with his family and a friend. His friend is not a believer. Thomas recalls the miracles performed by Jesus and testifies that he saw them, but his friend does not believe. The story commences in this manner until the resurrected Christ appears to the apostles. The friend claims that he would not believe it unless he saw it with his own eyes. Thomas then asked him, "And if you did see? Would you then believe?" The friend then admitted, "No; probably not." Thomas did see, and he did not believe until he saw. "Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed," said Jesus to Thomas. At the end of Thomas' account, the Spirit communicated to his friend of the truth, pricking his heart, and he knew, having not seen. It's a powerful testimony that the Holy Ghost gives. It was not Thomas' tale of miracles that converted his friend, it was the power of the Holy Ghost. Those who have not had that witness borne to them cannot say they know the Christ; they cannot say they know the gospel. I have felt and known that the Church is true. You may know that Jesus is Christ in this way, and that's wonderful. He has made this witness available so that we may come to Him. Moroni spoke the promise found in the Book of Mormon, "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Nowhere have any Church leaders ever said to take their word on something because they said so. They have always taught to study, ponder, and pray.
The missionaries use the process as mentioned in the Bible. They don't try to produce the feelings; they try to help create an environment where the Spirit can manifest, then teach. It's the Spirit that does the work, not the missionaries. Feelings and Feelings From God are two very different things. Did you pray regarding the company you got involved in? Was the feeling from the Spirit or was it a contraption of the devil? The devil can influence our hearts also, but he is unable to produce the same feelings that the Spirit can. I'm very sorry for what happened to you regarding the Church, calgal. I know it's the truth and I'm sorry you never got the witness needed. Maybe it wasn't your time.
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First, not even prophets and apostles are perfect; however, yes, for the most part I feel they are humble. I know that they are righteous because they are called by God to positions of authority (that requires righteousness) and humility is a commandment. That's not a leap of logic.
This could be true. That's why you're asked to pray. The missionaries don't say, "How do you feel? Good? Great! Then you know it's true!" The feeling must be accompanied by knowledge of the source. Otherwise it's fallible.
Ah! but how can you even know the Bible is true except through feeling? If this feeling didn't exist in the first place I don't think you'd be Christian. You've felt Christ's love, and that's how you know He's alive and kicking and suffered for our sins, isn't it?
Have you ever heard of FARMS? It's an organization based out of BYU that does scientific research to support the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, etc, as well as the Bible, and it discusses other issues, sometimes going into apologetics. The effort is in research. Go to http://farms.byu.edu/ for information on such things as you mentioned. There have been old Nephite city sites found, as well as artifacts. Take a look. It's a great site.
Can you elaborate this? I don't understand.
This is the popular conception of the Trinity. The authors of the book, Mormonism 101, actually disagree with that conception. It's not a uniform theory and actually wasn't a popular belief in the 1st century Church of Christ (if the idea existed then at all). But the Trinity is a rather large, complex discussion; let's not get into it here.
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calgal
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jodrey:
But I had the feeling (nothing to back it up) that your church was true. I could spout off a testimony at will and cry on command. I was considered a "strong" LDS member for these qualities. I believed to the point that I alienated family and friends by my insistence on being "righteous." Have I
The problem was that this "testimony" was built on a fraudulent base. When I left your church, I was furious with God for allowing me to be deluded. The lesson I now know I was to learn was simply that feelings must be backed up with verifiable fact and realistic faith. As a Mormon, I believed I could be perfect and any imperfections were because of my lack of faith. When I turned my life over to God, I realized I was perfect through Christ alone. My own efforts were puny compared to Him. And as for what happenned with your church, I am thankful to God for gently guiding me out and then stepping back to give me time to come find Him when I was ready to listen. In the long run, I am a more mature Christian who is not as gullible and I have the ability to recognize something that is not right a lot more quickly.
Actually, Satan can replicate the feelings which is why Christians are taught to be "gentle as doves and wise as serpents." Think about this: why are there no records: DNA or otherwise proving a Semitic people group occupied any land in the New World before 1492?
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From an objective view, yes; however, if one knows the witness of the Spirit then no. It's subjective. In order to know who's right you have to know the power of the Spirit. Until everyone does it's not objective; but if that were the case then the argument would be dead anyway.
Yes, it's sad. I was one of those people during my early teenage years, kind of. Well, I had the knowledge buried in me; I just couldn't openly deny the Church, but my testimony was small and fragile. It wasn't until I was about 16 when I was actually "converted." It's sad that there are people who feel that they must pretend in order to be accepted. Maybe in certain circles they must, and that's even worse. This is most likely the reason they later fell away. It doesn't mean that the truth is not there, just that they didn't find it.
Can you describe these psychological controls? I've never heard anyone mention them before. I've taken psychology and find it quite abstract. Which theory of coersion are you referring to and how does it apply to the Church?
Same here. The Book of Mormon has done this to me as well. One part always gets to me. It's Mormon's account of the destruction of the Nephites and his mourning for them. It makes me cry every time. For those who held the truth and then rejected it, they must perish, and it's so sad. Mormon 6: 16-22 -- "And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried: O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you! Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss. O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen! But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return. And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you. O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy." It was when I first read this and felt the power of the Spirit, and knew the loss of those souls that I was overpowered, and prayed, and knew the truth, and my desire to bring souls to the knowledge of the gospel and to salvation formed. It was reinforced by another Book of Mormon passage I read my second time through. Alma 29: 1-2 says, "O THAT I were an angel, and could have the wish of mine heart, that I might go forth and speak with the trump of God, with a voice to shake the earth, and cry repentance unto every people! Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth." I have felt the power of these words more than once, and it is the desire in me now that I will serve a mission and declare all that I can to whoever will listen.
Who said that yours is false? Have you had personal revelation that my Church is false or has it been confirmed to you that you can repent and be saved through Christ, as can all others?
What is a sign? I've already established that it was taught that we are to seek the confirmation of the Spirit and use our hearts to know the truth. I propose that a sign is any evidence of truth less than a spiritual understanding. Miracles are signs, as is complex reasoning; history and nature are all signs of the divinity of Jesus and His plan. Signs aren't bad, but we should not seek after these things in order to base our testimony off of them. Our faith is spiritual, not physical.
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How do you know that it was God who confirmed to you that it was false? I mean this as a serious question. What happened? What drove you away from the Church?
Regarding DNA, see http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/woodward01/. I think you might benefit from the loads of LDS apologetics found throughout the Internet. There is nothing that anti-Mormons say that there is no answer to. I don't know all the answers, but others do, so I refer you to them. The scripture is true: you should certainly be wise as a serpent. You should have an answer for every man. You should read, ponder, and then pray. The LDS Church has never advocated blind faith.
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rnmomof7
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Several..first group pressuer, the "secret" cermonies and handshakes make it all very "special" and mysterious..foget that Christ always acted in public view. At one time the endowment ceremony included the mason sign for slitting the neck if anyone "told" . That is like a frat> that binds people together with "secrets"
But I became aware of a new one today..the magic underwear. I was reading the testimonies of people that had left and to a man the underwear was a major issue. The were "brain washed' to believe that there garments offered some kind of physical or spiritual protection..the utah Mormons were afraid their decision to leave would be noticed by the lack of outlines
The teaching that women MUST be called up by their husband is very mindcontrolling..and I think why the use of anti depressents is so high in utah. Women are powerless creatures ..good only for sex, service and child bearing . they are sopiritually noting without an "observant man"..that my young friend is very controlling to women.
BYW I worked 15 years as a counselor..so I too have had some training)
No jodrey it is not the same thing at all. You seek for that , you need it to confirm your faith. The human body is a funny thing ..it will respond to the chemical message that are sent. Because you need them you can cause them..I do not need them to verify my faith or the truth of it. When they occure they are a blessing of being in the presence of God in a most intimate way..but they are not "proof" of my faith . Nor do they mean that I am somehow more correct than a Christian that does not have that prayer experience. God tells us to use our intellect..He gave it to us to use as we search for the truth.
Your church says it is false Jodrey..your church says the God of the bible I worship is not the real God..
Jodrey..I have read and read your church history and doctrine and much of its scriptures. I have read the history of Joseph Smith ,I do not believe and have no witness that he was any prophet. I am amazed that he is actually honored above Christ by the church.
Jodrey can I ask you a question? Why do you want to be exhaulted?
BTW I listened to the conference today..
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