Does God love everyone?

Clare73

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Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Would we be commanded to do something different than what God would do?
Does the Judge up at the Courthouse necessarily hate the guy he has to sentence?

Justice doesn't require hate. It's better administered where there is no hate.
But justice must still be administered.
Justice requires giving everyone what they are owed, what they have earned, it doesn't require hating.
 
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Clare73

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Has nothing to do with God's "feelings", but with Covenant. Because
Jacob, though the second child, was the heir of the promise, not Esau.
Heir only by God's sovereign choice to make him so, based on nothing but God's purpose that the promised seed would come from Jacob rather than Esau, though Esau was the firstborn.
God's covenant was with Israel, not Edom.
There was no Israel until the twins were born.
God's election before they were born was the cause of the covenant with Israel.
The covenant with Israel was not the cause of Jacob's election.
And further, Romans 9:13 means nothing without Romans 3:23 and Romans 11:32.

Go back and read Romans. Slowly and deliberately.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Heir only by God's sovereign choice to make him so, based on nothing but God's purpose that the promised seed would come from Jacob rather than Esau, though Esau was the firstborn.

There was no Israel until the twins were born.
God's election before they were born was the cause of the covenant with Israel.
The covenant with Israel was not the cause of Jacob's election.

It's that emphasis on God's "sovereign choice" that is deeply troubling for me when it comes to Calvinism. It's not about God's "sovereign choice", it's about God's love and grace through Jesus Christ. Election is not about God picking and choosing like a military commander; election is God's choice--in love, in grace--to save sinners and doing so through Jesus Christ. I was chosen in Christ, not because of some kind of divine whim, but because God, in Christ, intends to save and redeem the world.

God chose Jacob because God's intention was to do so, not as a sovereign whim--but because through Jacob was to come Jesus Christ our Lord, the Son of David, of the Tribe of Judah, the Seed of Abraham.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the God of love, healing, redemption, and salvation for the whole world. He does not hate His own creation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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timothyu

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How can the laws of man have anything to do with the Judge's personal sentiments?
Have you noticed that lady justice is blindfolded? Personal sentiments cannot enter the picture as the letter of the law must be followed (not to say there haven't been biased judges who have no business presiding).
 
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Clare73

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It's that emphasis on God's "sovereign choice" that is deeply troubling for me when it comes to Calvinism.
I understand but, nevertheless, it is precisely what Scripture presents:

Romans 9:21 - "Does not the potter have the (sovereign) right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble use and some pottery for common use (human waste)."

I see no other alternative but to conform my mind to the teaching of Romans 9:10-24 which, as the NT word of God (2 Timothy 3:16) is the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).

For I do not profit spiritually from setting the word of God against itself, but I profit tremendously from taking Scripture at its word, which then opens up so much of the rest of Scripture, revealing the nature of God.
It's not about God's "sovereign choice", it's about God's love and grace through Jesus Christ. Election is not about God picking and choosing like a military commander; election is God's choice--in love, in grace--to save sinners and doing so through Jesus Christ. I was chosen in Christ, not because of some kind of divine whim, but because God, in Christ, intends to save and redeem the world.

God chose Jacob because God's intention was to do so, not as a sovereign whim--but because through Jacob was to come Jesus Christ our Lord, the Son of David, of the Tribe of Judah, the Seed of Abraham.
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the God of love, healing, redemption, and salvation for the whole world.
He does not hate His own creation.
Is that not a red herring, for who states that he does?
 
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Clare73

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Have you noticed that lady justice is blindfolded? Personal sentiments cannot enter the picture as the letter of the law must be followed (not to say there haven't been biased judges who have no business presiding).
I'm not understanding how the laws of man have anything to do with the Judge's personal sentiments regarding those he sentences up at the Courthouse.

He either has such sentiments, or he doesn't, neither of which has anything to do with the administration of justice.
My point being, sentiment has nothing to do with true justice.

Your point?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I understand but, nevertheless, it is precisely what Scripture presents:

Romans 9:21 - "Does not the potter have the (sovereign) right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble use and some pottery for common use (human waste)."

Stop taking Romans 9 out of the context of the Epistle. Read Romans 9 within the context of the rest of the epistle.

Romans 9 makes no sense unless we have read what Paul has said before, and keep reading what he says after.

God has not created some people for salvation and some people for damnation; instead God has consigned ALL to disobedience that He might have mercy on ALL. Romans 11:32.

So even though the Gentiles have become grafted onto the olive tree, and though many Jews have been cut off--for both Jew and Gentile are justified through faith in Christ--it is not that God is faithless; for the Apostle hopes that all of Israel will be saved; for God having consigned both Jew and Gentile equally to disobedience (the Law which condemns us in our sin, Jew and Gentile alike) has mercy on all (through the Gospel); for this reason "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"--for the word is sent through preachers who preach the word, and the word creates faith (Romans 10:17) as the Apostle had said in the beginning, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek; for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, so that as it is written, 'the just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17).

The whole point of Romans is that all have sinned, and that justification is found in Christ alone, through faith, and God's will and desire is, indeed to save--to show mercy. Yes, "He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy" and to whom does He show mercy? All.

I see no other alternative but to conform my mind to the teaching of Romans 9:10-24 which, as the NT word of God (2 Timothy 3:16) is the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
I do not profit spiritually from setting the word of God against itself, but I profit tremendously from taking Scripture at its word, which then opens up so much of the rest of Scripture, revealing the nature of God.

Taking the 9th chapter of Romans out of context from the rest of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans is not conforming one's mind to the teaching of Scripture; it is forcing Scripture to conform to one's own opinions.

"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:2

"But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

These Scriptures do not lie.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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Stop taking Romans 9 out of the context of the Epistle. Read Romans 9 within the context of the rest of the epistle.
It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate your assertion, if your assertion is to enjoy any merit.

In the meantime, Romans 9 is in the context of the epistle: i.e., righteousness from God alone.
Unrighteousness of all mankind, Gentiles and Jews alike - Romans 1-3.
Righteousness of justification is imputed from God - Romans 4-5.
Righteousness of sanctification is imparted by God in obedience by the Holy Spirit - Romans 6-8.
Righteousness of God vindicated in his rejection of Israel - Romans 9-11.
Righteousness practiced, in the church, world, among weak and strong Christians - Romans 12-15.
Romans 9 makes no sense unless we have read what Paul has said before, and keep reading what he says after.
Romans makes complete sense from first to last.

"Stop taking Romans 9 out of the context."
God has not created some people for salvation and some people for damnation; instead God has consigned ALL to disobedience that He might have mercy on ALL. Romans 11:32.

So even though the Gentiles have become grafted onto the olive tree, and though many Jews have been cut off--for both Jew and Gentile are justified through faith in Christ--it is not that God is faithless; for the Apostle hopes that all of Israel will be saved; for God having consigned both Jew and Gentile equally to disobedience (the Law which condemns us in our sin, Jew and Gentile alike) has mercy on all (through the Gospel); for this reason "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"--for the word is sent through preachers who preach the word, and the word creates faith (Romans 10:17) as the Apostle had said in the beginning, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek; for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, so that as it is written, 'the just shall live by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17).

The whole point of Romans is that all have sinned, and that justification is found in Christ alone, through faith, and God's will and desire is, indeed to save--to show mercy. Yes, "He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy" and to whom does He show mercy? All.



Taking the 9th chapter of Romans out of context from the rest of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans is not conforming one's mind to the teaching of Scripture; it is forcing Scripture to conform to one's own opinions.

"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:2

"But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

These Scriptures do not lie.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate your assertion, if your assertion is to enjoy any merit.

To bionically demonstrate my assertion all I simply have to do is provide the Scriptures I already have.

I can keep repeating Romans 11:32 if you want.

In the meantime, Romans 9 is in the context of the epistle: i.e., righteousness from God alone.
Unrighteousness of all mankind, Gentiles and Jews alike - Romans 1-3.
Righteousness of justification is imputed from God - Romans 4-5.
Righteousness of sanctification is imparted by God in obedience by the Holy Spirit - Romans 6-8.
Righteousness of God vindicated in his rejection of Israel - Romans 9-11.
Righteousness practiced, in the church, world, among weak and strong Christians - Romans 12-15.

And none of that is what I'm arguing against.

"'I have loved you,' says the LORD. But you say, 'How have You loved us?' 'Is not Esau Jacob's brother?' declares the LORD. 'Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.' If Edom says, 'We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,' the LORD of hosts says, 'They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called "the wicked country," and "the people with whom the LORD is angry forever."' Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, 'Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!'" - Malachi 1:2-5

It may benefit our understanding slightly if we look into what the prophet was talking about. "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" has nothing to do with the brothers, it goes back to Covenant. God's faithfulness to Israel rather than Edom.

Paul delicately balances the fact that Jacob was chosen, while Esau was not within this context:

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: 'About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" - Romans 9:6-13

Paul is talking about his unbelieving kinsmen (see also Romans 9:1-5); that merely being Abraham's descendent, merely being Jacob's descendent, doesn't mean anything without faith in Christ.

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
"

Is it unjust that though there be those who are the offspring of Abraham (through Jacob) of the flesh who, nevertheless, have been cut off? (as we shall see later in regard to the olive tree and the natural branches). Paul argues that no, of course God isn't unjust in this, for God has mercy and compassion on whomever He will have mercy and compassion. "So it depends not on human will or effort, but on God who has mercy".

Pharaoh famously, in the Exodus, is said to have had his heart hardened by God against the Israelites, ultimately leading to the 10 plagues.

God used Pharaoh to demonstrate his mercy to Israel. So if through God's purposes Pharaoh's stubbornness and hardness can be used to display God's power, and ultimately His mercy to Jacob--which, ultimately, is in Christ, for the world.

Paul continues,

"As indeed he says in Hosea,

'Those who were not my people I will call "my people,"
and her who was not beloved I will call "beloved."'
'And in the very place where it was said to them, "You are not my people,"
there they will be called "sons of the living God."'


And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.' And as Isaiah predicted,

'If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.'
"

God is not unjust if unbelieving Israel turns away and throws away their birthright;
nor it is unjust if God by His grace calls Gentiles to Himself and makes them children of the promise.

"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,

'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.'

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
" - Romans 9:30-33, Romans 10:1-4

Israel's (according to the flesh) rejection of Christ among the unbelieving Jews was not the end for them, but rather we shall see, their rejection and hardness of heart shall be to demonstrate God's mercy and judgment--for the calling and inclusion of the Gentiles.

"For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, 'Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?’"' (that is, to bring Christ down) 'or "Who will descend into the abyss?"' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:5-13

All who call on the name of the Lord, Jew or Gentile, shall be saved (such is the mercy of God).

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!' But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

'Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.'


But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

'I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.'


Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

'I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.'


But of Israel he says, 'All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'
" - Romans 10:14-21

It is the Gospel, proclaimed by the Apostles of Christ (and His Church), that gives faith, creates faith. Not that all have received it in faith (there are those who do not, and seemingly will not believe). God will make Israel jealous, He will come to a people who did not know Him and will make them His.

"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 'Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.' But what is God's reply to him? 'I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.' So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." - Romans 11:1-6

So we've been through Paul talking about how God had chosen Jacob, and not Esau; and yet just being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of the promise; those who have turned away will, in their hardness of heart, still declare God's mercy for He shall mercifully choose a people that did not know Him--the Gentiles. So that Jew and Gentile, on the basis of faith, shall be justified. Does this mean God has turned His face away from Israel? Absolutely not, of course not. There is, the Apostle says, a remnant. Faithful Jewish believers in Jesus.

But he keeps going still,

"What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

'God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.'


And David says,

'Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.'
" - Romans 11:7-10

So we see here that the remnant obtained it, but concerning those of hardened heart the above is said. Let's keep going,

"So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.


But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
" - Romans 11:11-25

Well this is interesting, "did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!" and "if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!"

See here the mercy of God, the natural branches who are pruned away, and the wild branches that are grafted on, and yet, those same wild branches can also be removed and the natural pruned branches can be restored.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

'The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob';
'and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.'


As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
" - Romans 11:25-32

The hardening, which has served for the purpose of God to demonstrate His power and mercy, is apparently only temporary; and while at present there is antagonism between unbelieving Jews and believing Jews and Gentiles, they are nevertheless still what they were from the beginning, those to whom came the covenants, the promises, the patriarchs, the prophets, etc. "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"

So we who have believed have obtained mercy, who were formerly in disobedience, whether Jew or Gentile.

And they, who are in their unbelief and hardness of heart, they too shall be given mercy.

For when God says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" He intends to have mercy on all, to show forth His compassion upon all. Jew and Gentile alike.

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

'For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?'
'Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?'


For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
" - Romans 11:33-36

The Apostle, having spoken of such deep mysteries of God's mercy can do nothing here, but stand in awe of the Gospel and God's grace and mercy. God will do what God will do--and what He will do is have mercy on sinners.

Romans makes complete sense from first to last.

Absolutely. And taking Romans 9 out of context disrupts the whole point Paul is making. It's his thesis statement: "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek, for through it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, so as it is written 'The just shall live by faith'" (Romans 1:16-17).

This has nothing to do with God's sovereign choices; it's about God's grace and mercy in Jesus Christ.

By reading this through the lens of "God is sovereign" rather than the appropriate "God saves sinners through Jesus Christ" one turns away from the Theology of the Cross to a theology of glory.

Crux probat omnia

-CryptoLutheran
 
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jamiec

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Spoken by a true Catholic. But the Bible does not contradict itself. God is not tame.
1) Not sure what to make of that.

2) It does. Nor is that necessarily a bad thing. Since the books of the Bible are all entirely human works, and are not simply the work of God alone, contradictions should not be a surprise. The Bible nowhere expounds a doctrine of its own Total Inerrancy - still less does it specify that it contains, and can contain, no contradictions of any kind. It is - or the OT is - "God-breathed": not for that reason free of all contradiction. That its textual transmission is not inerrant or contradictionless or in any other way flawless, suggests that Providence had no intention of inspiring or securing a flawless Biblical text. If God had meant the Bible to be totally contradictionless, no power in Heaven or on Earth or under the Earth or in the seas prevented God from bringing that about.

(3) Agreed - God is not tame.
 
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bling

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1) Not sure what to make of that.

2) It does. Nor is that necessarily a bad thing. Since the books of the Bible are all entirely human works, and are not simply the work of God alone, contradictions should not be a surprise. The Bible nowhere expounds a doctrine of its own Total Inerrancy - still less does it specify that it contains, and can contain, no contradictions of any kind. It is - or the OT is - "God-breathed": not for that reason free of all contradiction. That its textual transmission is not inerrant or contradictionless or in any other way flawless, suggests that Providence had no intention of inspiring or securing a flawless Biblical text. If God had meant the Bible to be totally contradictionless, no power in Heaven or on Earth or under the Earth or in the seas prevented God from bringing that about.

(3) Agreed - God is not tame.
The writers were inspired by the same Spirit, but wrote in their own style. Would the Holy Spirit which protected and preserved the scripture for me, allowed error to be preserved?
We also have the indwelling Holy Spirit to lead us to the truth if we have an issue.
There are "scholarly books" addressing so called "contradictions" in scripture and not sure what you are talking about?
 
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jamiec

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The writers were inspired by the same Spirit, but wrote in their own style. Would the Holy Spirit which protected and preserved the scripture for me, allowed error to be preserved?
God permitted the Shoah - just as God permits countless evils. Even though they are totally contrary to His holy and righteous character. God’s character cannot be used as an argument to rule out the fact of evils in the world. Regardless of whether or not they reflect God’s character, and are compatible with it, they occur. One cannot argue from God’s character, to the impossibility of this or that happening in the world.

A God who can allow such things, cannot be relied upon not to allow errors in Scripture. God allows all sorts of bad stuff to happen. So there is no reason to suppose that God will not allow that stuff to happen in the formation of Scripture. God is not a device for preventing creatures follow their own wills and doing those wills in the world God has created.
We also have the indwelling Holy Spirit to lead us to the truth if we have an issue.
There are "scholarly books" addressing so called "contradictions" in scripture and not sure what you are talking about?
I am not sure what you are referring to, either.
 
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bling

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God permitted the Shoah - just as God permits countless evils. Even though they are totally contrary to His holy and righteous character. God’s character cannot be used as an argument to rule out the fact of evils in the world. Regardless of whether or not they reflect God’s character, and are compatible with it, they occur. One cannot argue from God’s character, to the impossibility of this or that happening in the world.

A God who can allow such things, cannot be relied upon not to allow errors in Scripture. God allows all sorts of bad stuff to happen. So there is no reason to suppose that God will not allow that stuff to happen in the formation of Scripture. God is not a device for preventing creatures follow their own wills and doing those wills in the world God has created.

I am not sure what you are referring to, either.
Now I am not really understanding what you are referring to?

What contradictions in scripture re you talking about?

You seem to be saying: “since we are not all born into a Garden of Eden situation God is a contradiction”?

Death is not bad in and of itself, for it is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

Yes, people have done some really bad stuff in their lives, but also like Saul before He began Paul, they could have repented and been saved.

This messed up world with all its evil, is actually the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective, so for their sack God allows everything that is happening to happen.
 
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Fred Benjamin

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Does God love everyone? No

Love Defined: God’s love is an intellectual (passionless/not moody/immutable/univocal), holy (separated from evil) disposition to favor (goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight, Habakkuk 1:13b You can not look on wickedness with favor) according to the loveliness (divine likeness, bond of unity – Colossians 3:14) of the object (God himself and those “in Christ” being the most lovely).

Premise1: God's love is HOLY (as are all His attributes)
Premise2: God's love is a volition to favor
Premise3: God's love a bond of unity (perfection in the ethical sense, such as truth, righteousness, and justice)
Conclusions:
1) Since most people go to hell which violates premise2 of the definition of love we can concluded God does not favor/love everyone
2) Since God is holy and thus His love is holy. Hebrews 1:9 “You have loved righteousness [integrity, virtue, uprightness in purpose] and have hated lawlessness [injustice, sin]. Since God cannot love that which He hates and since He hates those that are lawless, he cannot love everyone.
3) Since love is a bond of unity (Col.3:14) and the unsaved are not IN CHRIST they are not loved as that contradicts the definition of love.

Aside: Love the sinner and hate his sin ... A person is the aggregate of his thoughts and actions, and the thoughts and actions of the reprobate are continuously evil, so the totality of his life is evil … thus it is nonsense to say that we should love the sinner and hate the sin, since one cannot be considered apart from the other.
 
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bling

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Does God love everyone? No

Love Defined: God’s love is an intellectual (passionless/not moody/immutable/univocal), holy (separated from evil) disposition to favor (goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight, Habakkuk 1:13b You can not look on wickedness with favor) according to the loveliness (divine likeness, bond of unity – Colossians 3:14) of the object (God himself and those “in Christ” being the most lovely).

Premise1: God's love is HOLY (as are all His attributes)
Premise2: God's love is a volition to favor
Premise3: God's love a bond of unity (perfection in the ethical sense, such as truth, righteousness, and justice)
Conclusions:
1) Since most people go to hell which violates premise2 of the definition of love we can concluded God does not favor/love everyone
2) Since God is holy and thus His love is holy. Hebrews 1:9 “You have loved righteousness [integrity, virtue, uprightness in purpose] and have hated lawlessness [injustice, sin]. Since God cannot love that which He hates and since He hates those that are lawless, he cannot love everyone.
3) Since love is a bond of unity (Col.3:14) and the unsaved are not IN CHRIST they are not loved as that contradicts the definition of love.

Aside: Love the sinner and hate his sin ... A person is the aggregate of his thoughts and actions, and the thoughts and actions of the reprobate are continuously evil, so the totality of his life is evil … thus it is nonsense to say that we should love the sinner and hate the sin, since one cannot be considered apart from the other.
Welcome to CF and posting.

1. Yes God’s Love is not a knee jerk reaction and is a thought-out free will choice God makes, but that does not mean God is void of emotion, since God is like the father of the prodigal son.

2. Hate is not the opposite of Love, you can hate and Love the person at the same, like Jesus commanding us to hate our families, yet Love them at the same time.

3. Allowing some truly bad things to happen to one person in order to help another person does not mean you do not Love the person bad stuff is happening to, like God really Loved Christ, but allowed really bad stuff to happen to Christ in order to help willing individuals to accept His Love.

4. Hell dos not help or discipline the people that go to hell, but since prior they have reached the point of never willingly accepting God’s pure undeserved charity/Love in the form of forgiveness and will never, God will at least use them to do some good for others still able to choose to accept God’s Love. Another words God will use children He Loves to at least do some good in helping some other children He Loves.

5. Look at the story of “The Rich man and Lazarus”: God Loved the rich man and provided at great cost the rich man every day with the very best opportunity to experience Godly type Love with Lazarus. This was really hard on God and Lazarus, but God Loved the rich man.

6. God promised me hell if I did not accept His Love as pure undeserved charity and since I came to believe in Christ and God I also believed in His promises and God not lying. If no one went to hell then God would be a liar, so God has to allow some people to go to hell and experience the second death (annihilation after some time).
 
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BPPLEE

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Some have said that God loves everyone (and they quote verses like 2 Peter 3:9).

Others have said that God hates some people (and they quote Ps. 5:5).

To me this seems like a false dichotomy perhaps, and I wonder if when it refers to "hate" if really it means that God hates the position of someone in sin - but not the person themselves.

Does God love everyone?
Some have said that God loves everyone (and they quote verses like 2 Peter 3:9).

Others have said that God hates some people (and they quote Ps. 5:5).

To me this seems like a false dichotomy perhaps, and I wonder if when it refers to "hate" if really it means that God hates the position of someone in sin - but not the person themselves.

Does God love everyone?
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:13-18 - King James Version Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated
 
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