Oklahoma Legislature passes bill that would ban abortions from conception

Skye1300 said:

Who determined that breathing is the only way to get the breath of life? That's just a man made rule made by those in favor of abortion. The child has oxygen in his or her body. That's the breath of life.

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"Breath of life" is a biblical term. Oxygen was discovered in the 1770s, when every biblical author had been dead and rotten for a very long time.

So, no. The "breath of life" isn't a chemical element. It is the physical drawing of breath through the lungs.

When Does Life Begin? A Jewish View | Reclaiming Judaism

Sorry, but if you're going to borrow half your holy book from Judaism, you have to go with what they say. You can't just make stuff up.

rjs330 said:

It doesn't say the mother can be sued or punished.

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Which is a really weird situation if abortion were actually murdering a baby.

Belk said:

No, that is not how consent works. That has never been how it works.

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You may be right technically, but it's called risk assessment. You know when you have sex there is a risk of getting pregnant. You always hope the birth control works but it's never 100%. So by having sex you accept the risk. And there are a LOT of people who don't use birth control and the risk is even higher. So while you may not be giving consent you are accepting the risk which varies depending on if you are using birth control and what type.

KCfromNC said:

Comprehensive sex ed, widespread access to contraceptive for low income and young women, universal health insurance and a strong welfare state to make it economically feasible to bring the pregnancy to term.

But no, instead we get laws which let people sue doctors.

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I'm sure you know we have all those things now. There is access to free birth control, didn't we get Obama Care? Also there is welfare for them.

It may surprise you, but I would like to see health coverage strengthened as well as welfare totally reformed so that young single moms can become independent and provide for their kids.

And we keep the laws allowing for suing doctors.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

"Breath of life" is a biblical term. Oxygen was discovered in the 1770s, when every biblical author had been dead and rotten for a very long time.

So, no. The "breath of life" isn't a chemical element. It is the physical drawing of breath through the lungs.

When Does Life Begin? A Jewish View | Reclaiming Judaism

Sorry, but if you're going to borrow half your holy book from Judaism, you have to go with what they say. You can't just make stuff up.

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Here's another really good understanding of Jewish thought on life and abortion.

The beginning of human life: Status of embryo. Perspectives in Halakha (Jewish Religious Law)

Predominantly the Jewish thought is life happens at birth. However abortion is still prohibited after 40 days. They look at the baby as life in creation and have strict restrictions on abortions.

In the OT law if a man causes a woman to miscarry he is not charged with murder, but is fined according to the husband's demand.

I think this really supports what the state is doing. I certainly understand the hesitancy of calling it murder and wanting criminal murder charges. If christians are going to use scriptural reasons for opposing abortion understanding Jewish thought based upon the OT and the OT law it seems that what the state is doing would fall in line with it all.

KCfromNC said:

Which is a really weird situation if abortion were actually murdering a baby.

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Right. But I'm okay with what's happening because it seems to fit Biblical and Jewish thought on the issue. I've never been hot after a homicide law for this. I understand the political reasoning for not having one and I've been fairly wishy washy on it for Biblical reasons. Not set in stone. In doing further research into the OT teachings I've come to the place where I'm perfectly happy with where this is going.

rjs330 said:

You may be right technically, but it's called risk assessment. You know when you have sex there is a risk of getting pregnant. You always hope the birth control works but it's never 100%. So by having sex you accept the risk. And there are a LOT of people who don't use birth control and the risk is even higher. So while you may not be giving consent you are accepting the risk which varies depending on if you are using birth control and what type.

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And whether or not the woman has an actual choice to make. In some cultural situations she does not, at least not unilaterally.

rjs330 said:

You may be right technically, but it's called risk assessment. You know when you have sex there is a risk of getting pregnant. You always hope the birth control works but it's never 100%. So by having sex you accept the risk. And there are a LOT of people who don't use birth control and the risk is even higher. So while you may not be giving consent you are accepting the risk which varies depending on if you are using birth control and what type.

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Yes, you are accepting that there is a risk. Personally I think we should be doing everything we can to cut that risk down as much as possible. It is preferable to stop pregnancy from happening if it is not wanted.

Skye1300 said:

Who determined that breathing is the only way to get the breath of life? That's just a man made rule made by those in favor of abortion. The child has oxygen in his or her body. That's the breath of life.

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I didn't author Genesis.

timothyu said:

Quite simple if you take into consideration the prime purpose of the function. Back in the day it was more a case of playing crown and anchor where the spin of a wheel brought two outcomes and the excitement was primarily achieving one without the other. Added a whole different dimension to sex. Today it is all airbags and seatbelts.

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Prime purpose for whom?

There is no wheel in crown and anchor - there are three dice, each of which have six faces. If by excitement you mean the anxiety of risking one's life, health and security, then it was far more anxiety-inducing for one party than for the other.

Airbags and seatbelts are a good thing.

rjs330 said:

You may be right technically, but it's called risk assessment. You know when you have sex there is a risk of getting pregnant. You always hope the birth control works but it's never 100%. So by having sex you accept the risk. And there are a LOT of people who don't use birth control and the risk is even higher. So while you may not be giving consent you are accepting the risk which varies depending on if you are using birth control and what type.

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Agreed. I say, if you aren't ready to be a parent, you aren't ready to have sex. period. It's not just about ME ME ME ME ME. Which is the what the whole pro-"choice" crowd is about. Selfishness. Sad.

DaisyDay said:

Prime purpose for whom?

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Everyone that breeds

DaisyDay said:

There is no wheel in crown and anchor

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Carnivals would disagree

DaisyDay said:

Airbags and seatbelts are a good thing.

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But still secondary to the purpose of the ride.

RileyG said:

Agreed. I say, if you aren't ready to be a parent, you aren't ready to have sex. period. It's not just about ME ME ME ME ME. Which is the what the whole pro-"choice" crowd is about. Selfishness. Sad.

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It is not always about not being ready to be a parent but rather not wanting a child at all or not wanting any more children. Telling couples to just not have sex if not interested in being a parent has never worked.

comana said:

Telling couples to just not have sex if not interested in being a parent has never worked.

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Why is that? Self interest?

timothyu said:

Why is that? Self interest?

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The nation's interest. An ample domestic supply of new Americans.

cow451 said:

The nation's interest. An ample domestic supply of new Americans.

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Importing them is cheaper although it cuts down on the amount of North America's European builder descendants.

Skye1300 said:

Who determined that breathing is the only way to get the breath of life? That's just a man made rule made by those in favor of abortion. The child has oxygen in his or her body. That's the breath of life.

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Pretty sure breath of life has a more supernatural element to it than mere oxygen, it's the breath of God itself, so it's an animating force that gives life to what, in the Genesis story at least, was literally dirt. Distinct from the soul, which is more metaphysical in the existentialist notions, but also metaphysical in the simple idea of life, which is way admittedly far more complex than we prefer to reduce it to, since life itself doesn't begin at conception, it's part of a broader cycle

RileyG said:

Agreed. I say, if you aren't ready to be a parent, you aren't ready to have sex. period. It's not just about ME ME ME ME ME. Which is the what the whole pro-"choice" crowd is about. Selfishness. Sad.

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Except sex is not merely reproductive in nature, that's myopically focusing on an aspect that is not pertinent to all sex acts even if we just focus on married couples. Unless you're willing to admit you want to force couples to NEVER use birth control and always reproduce, in which case you've got a bigger hill to climb of advocating for excessive population

comana said:

It is not always about not being ready to be a parent but rather not wanting a child at all or not wanting any more children. Telling couples to just not have sex if not interested in being a parent has never worked.

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And is really not the other person's business anyway if they actually cared about personal liberty and responsibility. Advice offered is not necessarily advice followed

timothyu said:

Why is that? Self interest?

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Because 1) you don't know their situation and 2) it isn't your business if you're not doing anything to facilitate a reasonable safety net for families that need help and/or for unwanted children left for adoption