John 3:16 mistranslation
- Thread starter Cockcrow
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Yes - and he is love. He acts in, and with, love; that is who he is.
God's ways are higher than our ways - because we'd never choose a young, unarmed shepherd boy to fight a giant, or a (probably) teenage girl to give birth to the Messiah, or a carpenter's son to be that Messiah. We wouldn't choose that people could be reconciled to God through the death of a sinless man, we wouldn't say, or even think, that the first should be last and the last first, or that a person who wants to be great must serve.
But as Paul said, "God chose the foolish things of the earth to shame the wise, and the weak things of the earth to shame the strong, " 1 Corinthians 1:27. And, "The foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength", 1 Corinthians 1:25.
To create a person in his image and then choose that that person was not "an object of his love" and punish them for what he had decided, is not loving. It's not even foolish; it's just plain cruel.
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But he will not, and cannot, act contrary to his own nature.
Thank goodness I don't believe in a god who says, "I think I'll save, help and bless that person - but I don't like the look of that one, so I'm not going to love them."
On what basis would God reject someone - other than a whim? We all deserve to be rejected by, and cut off from, God. None of us deserve, or ever will deserve, his favour; we can never be good, rich, clever or beautiful enough to impress him or earn anything from him.
And by the way, Jacob and Esau was about choice and not hatred.
God chose Jacob; the Messiah would eventually come through his line and he was the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. People believed then that if God chose someone, it meant that he loved them. God loved both of them, but Jacob was chosen for his purposes.
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- Aug 11, 2017
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Just a few of them not all. We’ve determined that before already. John 15:1-7 Romans 2:4-5 Luke 13:6-9 you don’t go by these.
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Clare73
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Which view is due to not apprehending Isaiah 55:8-9:
Your ways are not his ways,
and his thoughts are not your thoughts.
As high as the heavens are above the earth,
so are his ways and thoughts above your ways and thoughts.
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The Bible was written so that we might know God.
We won't know him fully, and perfectly, until we die, and we don't understand all his ways. But all we need to know about God, and how we can have a relationship with him, is in the Bible.
And the Bible says that God is love - see 1 Corinthians 13 for the qualities of love; and it says that he is perfect, and just.
You asked if God's ways reflect his nature. Indeed. So if he created people in his image and then sent them to hell for not knowing him when he never chose them to know him, would that not suggest that he was unfair; unjust, imperfect and not loving?
Yet the Bible says that he is none of those.
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RickReads
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God will judge people based on what they knew and He will know what that is.
The problem is going to be that people who do not know Jesus will not be entitled to the immunity granted to believers.
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TedT
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The basis would be their free will rejection of HIS claims to be our GOD and Saviour or rejecting one of HIS commandments.
Some put their faith in HIM as GOD and saviour and became HIS elect, chosen for salvation if they should ever sin.
Some rebuked HIM as a liar and false god, sinning the unforgivable sin and by putting themselves outside of HIS saving grace for ever, became eternally sinful. These were not eligible for election to heaven as they had been warned.
Some of HIS elect chose rebellion against the judgement call and became temporarily sinful until they are redeemed and sanctified as per the promise of their election.
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Clare73
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You assume much about what you are not completely informed; e.g., no one
is condemned for not knowing him--when all are condemned at birth by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18),
and you measure much by your own reasoning rather than God's wisdom.
Last edited:
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I said in post 103 that we all deserve to be rejected by God; that none of us deserves God's grace, love and favour.
My understanding, and I apologise if I have misunderstood, is that you and others are saying that Jesus died for only a few; that God knew that some would believe in him, and chose to love and save them because they did believe. God also knew those who would be his enemies, i.e. reject him, and they were not "objects of his love".
I've been saying that in Matthew 5:44-48 Jesus tells us to love our enemies, that it is no good only loving those who love us because even the pagans do that, and that we are to be perfect as God is perfect. If God ordered us to do one thing when he was unable to do it himself, either he would be a hypocrite or we would be able to do something that God couldn't.
But Jesus did love those who were enemies of God - Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8. As Paul says, we might possibly be prepared to give our lives for good, righteous people, but Christ gave his life for sinners - God haters and godless people.
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Yes. But that's not what I think people are saying.
My understanding is that some have said that it is God who chooses whom he saves. The comment was made that God knows his enemies and they are not objects of his love.
I was asking, "on what basis does God choose?"
That they are sinners? We all are.
That they haven't done enough to prove themselves? None of us ever can.
Why are not all saved?
My answer to that is that, as Jesus said many times, we need to repent, go to him, accept him and trust that he alone gives eternal life, is the way to the Father and the Good Shepherd who gave his life for the sheep. If a person refuses to do that, or does do it but turns away and refuses to repent, then will not be saved. Although I believe that God doesn't give up on them; they give up on him.
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- Aug 21, 2003
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I can partly understand your blatantly false beliefs. Please show me where any Christian, pastor, teacher etc. ever said any such rubbish as I quoted from your post.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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What are you saying, then?
And what did you mean by the phrase, "God knows his enemies and they are not objects of his love"? Because I can't see any meaning for that other than, 'God doesn't love people who don't love him.'
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It seems to me that people who say that Jesus died for only a few, or "the elect", ARE saying what I wrote in my post; that they believe that God makes a choice about who he is going to save.
I said that I THINK this is what people are saying.
I said that this was my understanding, and that I apologised if I misunderstood.
Maybe I have misunderstood. And maybe I was wrong to use " " which does make it look as though I was quoting them directly. I didn't intend that.
So tell me that I've misunderstood; even give me a lesson in grammar if you must.
But please don't tell me that I have blatantly false beliefs and have been writing rubbish.
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- Aug 21, 2003
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Please show me where any Christian pastor, teacher, leader etc., I don't mean some anonymous person online, said that God said "I think I'll save, help and bless that person - but I don't like the look of that one, so I'm not going to love them.."
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Im not talking about my ways or my thoughts I’m talking about what the scriptures tell us about God’s ways. We can know the things about God that are specifically stated in the scriptures. The scriptures specifically state that God loved the world. Do you agree with that statement? The scriptures specifically state that Christ is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world not just our sins but the whole world. Do you agree with that statement? The scriptures specifically state twice in the New Testament that God does not show partiality. Do you agree with that statement? So when I say that God is just because He does not show partiality that statement is backed by scripture it has nothing to do with my thoughts or my ways.
“Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
Acts 10:34-35 NASB1995
“There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
Romans 2:9-11 NASB1995
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