To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

Ana the Ist · May 18, 2022

Kylie said:
Are you a TERF?

I wouldn't call myself that.

Why are you so obsessed with labels?

Kylie · May 18, 2022

Ana the Ist said:
I wouldn't call myself that.

Why are you so obsessed with labels?

You seem to be acting like one.

didactics · May 19, 2022

@Kylie @PloverWing I did not read this article yet--Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age--but I had something I want to comment on first.

Gene mutations are just that, anomalies on a spectrum or a better term might be disorders of sex development (DSD). I still don’t see how that indicates that sex is on a spectrum. We don’t have any evidence of biological chimeras in the truest sense of the meaning.

Kylie · May 19, 2022

didactics said:
@Kylie @PloverWing I did not read this article yet--Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age--but I had something I want to comment on first.

Gene mutations are just that, anomalies on a spectrum or a better term might be disorders of sex development (DSD). I still don’t see how that indicates that sex is on a spectrum. We don’t have any evidence of biological chimeras in the truest sense of the meaning.

Remember, we aren't talking biological sex, we're talking gender identity. There's plenty of evidence that's on a spectrum.

And from a chromosomal point of view, there's plenty of evidence that biological sex is on a spectrum as well. There are certainly lots of different ways people can have their sex chromosomes arranged.

TLK Valentine · May 19, 2022

Kylie said:
Remember, we aren't talking biological sex, we're talking gender identity. There's plenty of evidence that's on a spectrum.

The fact that certain behaviors, certain activities, certain products, even certain colors, are considered "masculine" or "feminine," shows how much gender is societal as opposed to biological.

Eight Foot Manchild · May 19, 2022

TLK Valentine said:
The fact that certain behaviors, certain activities, certain products, even certain colors, are considered "masculine" or "feminine," shows how much gender is societal as opposed to biological.

I do think there is some biological basis for some of the gender roles that have traditionally been assigned. Males tend to be larger, more muscular, with denser bones, etc... So it does make sense that a lot of societies - certainly not all societies at all times in all places, but a lot - would assign them to be the warriors, for example.

But - and here is the real crux - I don't care.

You cannot derive an "ought" from an "is", and to do so in this case would be to commit a naturalistic fallacy. As long as it doesn't harm anyone, behave how you wish. Wear the clothes that are comfortable to you, in whatever colors you like, and so forth. None of this represents an existential threat.

TLK Valentine · May 19, 2022

Eight Foot Manchild said:
I do think there is some biological basis for some of the gender roles that have traditionally been assigned. Males tend to be larger, more muscular, with denser bones, etc... So it does make sense that a lot of societies - certainly not all societies at all times in all places, but a lot - would assign them to be the warriors, for example.

Oh, absolutely -- I've said before that there are three major factors: biological, psychological, and social, and they all end up influencing one another to make us choose what gender we identify as, what roles in society we pursue (or avoid), how we choose to express ourselves in terms of our gender, etc., etc...

But - and here is the real crux - I don't care.

Nor should anyone, really. Personally, I want everyone to live their fullest and happiest lives, so long as they don't stop anyone else from doing likewise.

Choosing one's own gender doesn't seem to get in the way of that, so what's the problem?

You cannot derive an "ought" from an "is", and to do so in this case would be to commit a naturalistic fallacy. As long as it doesn't harm anyone, behave how you wish. Wear the clothes that are comfortable to you, in whatever colors you like, and so forth. None of this represents an existential threat.

Not to us, perhaps -- but there are people who, sadly, have chosen to define themselves and everything else in terms of those societal norms... not realizing that they are neither universal nor written in stone.

They're setting themselves up for a shock, and normally I'd say they're in for a hard lesson... but when they lash out, other people get hurt.

didactics · May 19, 2022

Kylie said:
Remember, we aren't talking biological sex, we're talking gender identity. There's plenty of evidence that's on a spectrum.

And from a chromosomal point of view, there's plenty of evidence that biological sex is on a spectrum as well. There are certainly lots of different ways people can have their sex chromosomes arranged.

“Finally, some brain structural changes were detected that were also more similar, but not identical, to those typical of the desired gender of GD boys and girls.”

"Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age." ScienceDaily.

Yes, but there’s still a problem, because I don’t think that’s the same as saying, you can have a female brain typical in every way in a male body.

“Sometimes, but not always, this condition is caused because a male fetus is immune to testosterone. When this happens, the testosterone released by the mother’s body during development doesn’t trigger the signal to map the brain as male, and a female mind is created,”

“The 6 Most Common Biological Sexes in Humans” By Joshua Kennon

Something about what he is stating sounds fishy to me. After all, though brain studies are possible, which give us a clue of what the mind thinks, we cannot look at the mind itself.

PloverWing · May 19, 2022

didactics said:
After all, though brain studies are possible, which give us a clue of what the mind thinks, we cannot look at the mind itself.

That's the kind of thing psychology tries to study, through talking with people, or asking them questions, or watching how they perform on different tasks, etc. It is, I admit, a challenge.

BNR32FAN · May 19, 2022

didactics said:
I had a particular question. Do trans people really believe that by transitioning, that they become the opposite sex? I mean, sometimes I hear the phrase thrown around, that trans women are women. I don’t have to be a biologist to know that’s insane—trans women don’t have eggs. Trans women don’t magically start menstruating. Or who knows, maybe a progressive would fire back, does a woman need to menstruate to be a woman? And then I suppose I would have to argue based on what is normative, namely that women usually menstruate, but trans women never have eggs.

So what I’m getting at is, just how dedicated are progressives to this gender theory? Is it irrelevant to state that what is normal of male and female behavior is obvious, if perhaps they believe that what is normal now may not always be normal—meaning that humans may evolve into something different? Or, maybe progressive minded people know that their theory is senseless, except maybe not all, and they would rather use their ideas to divide and conquer. But then again that just sounds conspiratorial.

For example, I watched a video of a trans woman explaining that he thought the concept of male and femaleness really was a concept that the colonizers came up with. I can’t tell you how absurd that is. I guess there’s no point in defining humans as male and female. But that’s like saying that human procreation is irrelevant, and that’s why we don’t need terms like male and female. This really gets into dangerous territory because it’s an attempt to play God—the idea that we don’t have to have limits based on our gender.

It’s also an attack on God’s very good design, that in the beginning he made them male and female. Even Jesus affirmed this (see Mt 19:4).

It just shows how truth is becoming more and more subjective nowadays. It’s whatever a particular party wants it to be.

TLK Valentine · May 19, 2022

PloverWing said:
That's the kind of thing psychology tries to study, through talking with people, or asking them questions, or watching how they perform on different tasks, etc. It is, I admit, a challenge.

Absolutely -- we're still scratching the surface about how the brain works biologically... and most of what we do know, we've only learned in the last few decades.

The actual psychology of it all is, as T. S. Eliot said, "a wilderness of mirrors." And it's even more complicated by the old nature/nurture debate -- how much of how we think is structured by our brains, and how much is structured by society?

There's a Nobel Prize waiting for whoever can give a solid answer...

TLK Valentine · May 19, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
It just shows how truth is becoming more and more subjective nowadays. It’s whatever a particular party wants it to be.

Which makes it very telling when one sees which members of which parties are less interested in seeking truth, and more interested in seeking power.

jayem · May 19, 2022

didactics said:
“Finally, some brain structural changes were detected that were also more similar, but not identical, to those typical of the desired gender of GD boys and girls.”

"Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age." ScienceDaily.

Yes, but there’s still a problem, because I don’t think that’s the same as saying, you can have a female brain typical in every way in a male body.

Why not? Ever heard of body integrity identity disorder? BIID is a (fortunately) very rare condition in which a person is convinced that part of his/her body--usually a leg--is foreign. Their brain does not recognize the extremity as a normal part of the person's anatomy. The unwanted appendage causes extreme distress and BIID patients strongly desire that the offensive body part be removed. (The proper medical term for amputation desire is apotemnophilia.) Few, if any surgeons will amputate an otherwise healthy limb. (Though it has been done in Europe.) So patients will often self-mutilate themselves to a degree that amputation becomes necessary. There's even a subset of BIID patients who believe they should be paraplegic and want a surgeon to transect their spinal cord. As bizarre as it sounds, this condition really exists. The brain and body are not in sync. And it's been postulated that the neurophysiological basis for gender dysphoria and BIID may be similar.

I think the full article is behind a pay wall. But here's an abstract.

Clinical and theoretical parallels between desire for limb amputation and gender identity disorder - PubMed

Ana the Ist · May 19, 2022

Kylie said:
You seem to be acting like one.

I wouldn't call myself a feminist....but what's your point?

Is your whole political view reduced to "if you don't agree with me you're a bad person"?

Ana the Ist · May 19, 2022

TLK Valentine said:
Which makes it very telling when one sees which members of which parties are less interested in seeking truth, and more interested in seeking power.

Agreed.

Ana the Ist · May 19, 2022

Kylie said:
Remember, we aren't talking biological sex, we're talking gender identity. There's plenty of evidence that's on a spectrum.

No there isn't.

And from a chromosomal point of view, there's plenty of evidence that biological sex is on a spectrum as well.

No...there isn't.

There are certainly lots of different ways people can have their sex chromosomes arranged.

If you're trying to confuse the issue by bringing up intersex people...

1. They typically identify as male or female and live their lives as such.
2. It's a genetic anomaly. It happens because biology isn't a perfect process....it makes mistakes. Ever heard of appendicitis? These are normal occurrences but they do not represent a "spectrum" of biological sex.

Ana the Ist · May 19, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
It just shows how truth is becoming more and more subjective nowadays. It’s whatever a particular party wants it to be.

I don't think truth is subjective....but a certain group of people have vastly overestimated their ability to identify it.

Apparently, if some Gender Studies academic declares gender a "spectrum"...that's all it takes for some people to believe it is a truth backed by evidence.

TLK Valentine · May 19, 2022

Ana the Ist said:
I don't think truth is subjective....but a certain group of people have vastly overestimated their ability to identify it.

Apparently, if some Gender Studies academic declares gender a "spectrum"...that's all it takes for some people to believe it is a truth backed by evidence.

Look at the bright side: they'll publish their findings in a book, you'll ban the book, and then truth is identified by default.

didactics · May 19, 2022

TLK Valentine said:
Absolutely -- we're still scratching the surface about how the brain works biologically... and most of what we do know, we've only learned in the last few decades.

The actual psychology of it all is, as T. S. Eliot said, "a wilderness of mirrors." And it's even more complicated by the old nature/nurture debate -- how much of how we think is structured by our brains, and how much is structured by society?

There's a Nobel Prize waiting for whoever can give a solid answer...

I thought someone might counter me on that note. I’m still not entirely convinced anyone has had this happen to them. But let’s suppose someone does have a mind that’s in the opposite body. How do we know that such a biological chimera constitutes a new sex? Humans are more than what they think. It does make us unique beings that we are capable of discursive thinking. But we are also moral beings. I still couldn’t get around what the Bible tells me in Deuteronomy 22:5, which specifically outlawed transvestism. It is an abomination, and though we are not held to Jewish laws and customs the moral law is still in effect.

didactics · May 19, 2022

Oops! I stated, we are more than what we think. But I forgot about Proverbs 23:7.

To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

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