Patriarchy is better than Feminism

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
4,338
5,024
New Jersey
✟332,494.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
This is where it all leads to. Watch the video

Clarify for me, what leads to what?

If we ordain people and let them preach, they'll sometimes make mistakes?
or,
Listening to sermons leads to encountering interpretations of the Bible that I don't agree with?
or,
Priests making videos leads to priests laughing at bishops?
or, ...?

What is "it", and what's the causal chain that leads to "this"?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paidiske
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Clarify for me, what leads to what?

If we ordain people and let them preach, they'll sometimes make mistakes?
or,
Listening to sermons leads to encountering interpretations of the Bible that I don't agree with?
or,
Priests making videos leads to priests laughing at bishops?
or, ...?

What is "it", and what's the causal chain that leads to "this"?

The presiding Bishop interpreted St Paul's exorcism of a demon from a woman in the book of Acts, as male patriarchal dominance over the woman by St Paul.

This is a bishop teaching this in the Episcopal Church, not just a priest or lay person who gets it wrong.
 
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
4,338
5,024
New Jersey
✟332,494.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The presiding Bishop interpreted St Paul's exorcism of a demon from a woman in the book of Acts, as male patriarchal dominance over the woman by St Paul.

This is a bishop teaching this in the Episcopal Church, not just a priest or lay person who gets it wrong.

Okay, yes.

You said "This is where it all leads to." What is the "it all" that you see as leading to the mistakes in this sermon?

I could see it this way: "When people who believe in patriarchy make mistakes in their sermons, sometimes those mistakes include inappropriate patriarchal assertions. When people who don't believe in patriarchy make mistakes in their sermons, sometimes those mistakes include inappropriate anti-patriarchal assertions." Is that what you're trying to say?
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Okay, yes.

You said "This is where it all leads to." What is the "it all" that you see as leading to the mistakes in this sermon?

I could see it this way: "When people who believe in patriarchy make mistakes in their sermons, sometimes those mistakes include inappropriate patriarchal assertions. When people who don't believe in patriarchy make mistakes in their sermons, sometimes those mistakes include inappropriate anti-patriarchal assertions." Is that what you're trying to say?

All is the cynacism of the flawed ideology that male oppressive patriarchy is
the driving force behind all the decisions ever made. When a Bishop thinks
that St Paul saw the woman as demonically possessed instead of being tolerant
of a person who is different, she interpreted his exorcism as patriarchal male dominance.

If a Bishop of the Episcopal Church thinks this way, the flawed ideology is being taught to the priests that serve under her and infects society as we're seeing today. As Bishop Baron's says, tolerance of evil is unacceptable.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
12,583
949
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟243,884.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This is where it all leads to. Watch the video


I don't think that is because women are leaders in the church. I think its more an ideological thinking that anyone can engage in. Its a narrow view and discounts multiple causes and reduces people down to the ideas and beliefs that the ideology claims as truth.

I agree this is creeping into belief and is muddying the waters about how we should live as Christians. That's why its important not to be bound to ideologies which claim truths and put Christs teachings and truth at the center.
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I don't think that is because women are leaders in the church. I think its more an ideological thinking that anyone can engage in. Its a narrow view and discounts multiple causes and reduces people down to the ideas and beliefs that the ideology claims as truth.

I agree this is creeping into belief and is muddying the waters about how we should live as Christians. That's why its important not to be bound to ideologies which claim truths and put Christs teachings and truth at the center.

Watch what this former priest in the Episcopal Church went through, and you'll see where we're heading if we allow it to.


Ten Objections to Women Priests | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism
 
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
4,338
5,024
New Jersey
✟332,494.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Watch what this former priest in the Episcopal Church went through, and you'll see where we're heading if we allow it to.

Ten Objections to Women Priests | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

Objections #3, 4, and 6 connect a belief in an all-male priesthood to a belief in the masculinity of God. Objections #1, 5, and 7 observe that opening the priesthood to women involves departing from Tradition on this point.

So, where we're heading might be this: Seeing women in the role of priest can lead to a view that God is without gender, and it can lead to a belief that Tradition can sometimes go astray and that it is appropriate to correct the Tradition when it goes astray.

I might reverse the direction of causality here -- I believed that God was without gender and that reform is occasionally necessary in the church before I believed that the ordination of women was acceptable -- but I admit the correlation.

Is this what you meant to point out?
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Objections #3, 4, and 6 connect a belief in an all-male priesthood to a belief in the masculinity of God. Objections #1, 5, and 7 observe that opening the priesthood to women involves departing from Tradition on this point.

So, where we're heading might be this: Seeing women in the role of priest can lead to a view that God is without gender, and it can lead to a belief that Tradition can sometimes go astray and that it is appropriate to correct the Tradition when it goes astray.

I might reverse the direction of causality here -- I believed that God was without gender and that reform is occasionally necessary in the church before I believed that the ordination of women was acceptable -- but I admit the correlation.

Is this what you meant to point out?

As the article asks: Why draw the line at male and female language for God? On this slippery slope we may slide into casting God as transgendered or, like a crossdresser, being one gender but appearing as another.

It's feminists who are seeking to remove gender references to male and female.

It's a misunderstanding of how the terms are used in Scripture. You are right, God has no gender, and Jesus speaking about his Father, wasn't referencing God's gender, but God as a father as we understand what an all good all power father is.

It's the flawed logic that is being used in secular areas of our society and even government today.

Nancy Pelosi removed all gender references from debates on legislature and documents which come before the House of Representatives.

Father, mother, sister, brother, she, him are no longer allowed in the House Of Representatives.

It's how twisted we've become and the article by the former woman priest, shows how it's gotten into religion.

Women can't be priests as Bishop Baron shows, that those requesting it as seeing the priesthood as a profession of power rather than a vocation of service.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,129
19,010
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,716.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Women can't be priests as Bishop Baron shows, that those requesting it as seeing the priesthood as a profession of power rather than a vocation of service.

There are so many things wrong with your linked article that I'm not even going to try to pull it apart, but this line needs to be responded to.

I can say - as a woman who is a priest - that this is an egregious slander. I didn't seek the priesthood for its power, and in fact the power that does come with it is one of the greatest pitfalls and risks of this vocation. I know many ordained women, and few of them (as is also true of the men) are in it for the power.

The reality of priesthood within our institutional churches is that it does come with power; more power than is good for us, sometimes. But the vast majority of us take up that power only with the intent to use it to serve. And this accusation is both a completely twisted misrepresentation, and frankly a quite blatant personal attack, from the point of view of CF's rules.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
There are so many things wrong with your linked article that I'm not even going to try to pull it apart, but this line needs to be responded to.

I can say - as a woman who is a priest - that this is an egregious slander. I didn't seek the priesthood for its power, and in fact the power that does come with it is one of the greatest pitfalls and risks of this vocation. I know many ordained women, and few of them (as is also true of the men) are in it for the power.

The reality of priesthood within our institutional churches is that it does come with power; more power than is good for us, sometimes. But the vast majority of us take up that power only with the intent to use it to serve. And this accusation is both a completely twisted misrepresentation, and frankly a quite blatant personal attack, from the point of view of CF's rules.


Bishop Baren spoke about the women seeking priesthood in the Catholic Church
in another video.

However, in the video I posted, he's addressing the flawed tolerance toward evil, which the Episcopal Bishop not only tolerates, but promotes in her flawed interpretation of St Paul's letter. She makes the claim that St Paul driving the
demon out of the woman was because of his male patriarchal oppression of a female being different. It's the most screwy interpretation of Scripture I've ever heard.

There is a constant demand by women for the Church to allow women
into the priesthood. It's never going to happen and the Bishope explains why.
Also, the priest takes the place of Christ on the altar and Christ was a male, which the Church doesn't have the authority to change.

When I see women asking for prayers on the issue, then I'll believe it's
not about seeking power, but seeking to follow God's will. I have yet to see
women ask people to pray on the issue, just demand to be allowed into the priesthood.

The woman in the other article was herself a priest in the Episcopal Church and left for the reasons she gives. You can argue about what she wrote, but it's her experience that caused her to leave.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,129
19,010
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,716.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
When I see women asking for prayers on the issue, then I'll believe it's not about seeking power, but seeking to follow God's will. I have yet to see
women ask people to pray on the issue, just demand to be allowed into the priesthood.

Have you had many conversations with women discerning vocations? Because I have, and not one - not one - approached the question without seeking the prayerful support of others.

You can argue about what she wrote, but it's her experience that caused her to leave.

I'm not arguing with what she wrote, mostly because there's just too much there to address constructively here. I'm arguing with your assertion that women seek ordination for the power.

I had the enormous privilege yesterday, of being called to do last rites for a lady at the hospital. I did, and I sat with her, her husband and daughter, as they talked of their life together, 62 years of a beautiful marriage, of a life of love and joy, of a woman of tremendous character. And I came home and said to my husband that all the other stuff - the church politics, the petty matters we get caught up in, the practicalities of managing a community and its buildings and corporate life - pale into insignificance after helping these people pray and genuinely connect with God at one of the most difficult and painful times of their lives.

There's nothing about power in that. Only a deep satisfaction at being able to support and encourage the faith of good people. That's the heart of my vocation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Have you had many conversations with women discerning vocations? Because I have, and not one - not one - approached the question without seeking the prayerful support of others.

Support of other women rather than the will of God to be known to them?

I'm not arguing with what she wrote, mostly because there's just too much there to address constructively here. I'm arguing with your assertion that women seek ordination for the power.

In the Catholic Church the demand for ordination often has to do with seeking power, which they
misunderstand the priesthood to be about.

I had the enormous privilege yesterday, of being called to do last rites for a lady at the hospital. I did, and I sat with her, her husband and daughter, as they talked of their life together, 62 years of a beautiful marriage, of a life of love and joy, of a woman of tremendous character. And I came home and said to my husband that all the other stuff - the church politics, the petty matters we get caught up in, the practicalities of managing a community and its buildings and corporate life - pale into insignificance after helping these people pray and genuinely connect with God at one of the most difficult and painful times of their lives.

I was a hospice volunteer and my wife was a hospice nurse. I understand the
emotions you experienced in that moment. It has nothing to do with what's being
addressed here.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,129
19,010
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,716.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Support of other women rather than the will of God to be known to them?

Support in seeking the will of God. (And the support of other people isn't confined to women, either, by the way! Some of the most supportive people I've encountered on my journey have been men willing to see and honour the vocations of their sisters).

In the Catholic Church the demand for ordination often has to do with seeking power, which they misunderstand the priesthood to be about.

Firstly, no one who understands vocation demands ordination. Expecting discernment processes to be open to everyone is very different than feeling entitled to a particular outcome.

But I've known people - men and women - who pursued ministry for the power. Few of them persevered through the discernment and formation processes, as they gradually came to understand that indeed, priesthood is not about power.

I do not believe that people push for the ordination of women out of a desire for power.

It has nothing to do with what's being
addressed here.

Of course it does. You slandered every ordained woman as seeking power. Sharing accounts of what is really meaningful in ministry shows how false that slander is.
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
[QUOTE="Paidiske, post: 76698391, member: 386627"

Of course it does. You slandered every ordained woman as seeking power. [/QUOTE]

No I didn't.

I was speaking about the Catholic Church which does not ordain women
and I posted, "often has to do with seeking power." Often doesn't mean
always and it was Bishop Barron who specified that many see the priesthood
as a position of power rather than of service.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,129
19,010
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,716.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You were not only speaking about the Catholic church, since you also linked to an article by a woman who had been an Anglican priest. Nor did you limit your comments about power to a Catholic context.

I don't see any fundamental difference between a Catholic woman with a vocation, and a woman of any other denomination with a vocation. We're all seeking to be obedient to God's call.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,129
19,010
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,716.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
More on topic for this thread, perhaps:

281250587_10158989025506452_2179550128308448007_n.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
2,407
512
TULSA
✟50,622.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Patriarchy and Theocracy are God's ideal. Just because someone did something bad at some point in history, doesn't change the ideal. Christians did some bad stuff at some point in history, but Christianity isn't evil.

Patriarchy was established and commanded by God.
When people are murdered in the millions in the name of a religion, that is evil, isn't it.....
 
Upvote 0