Thoughts on this passage by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov?

SingularityOne · May 13, 2022

Salvation in No Other Name: Christians! You Must Know Christ!

——

Never read anything like this before. I’ve been told by some that “the good the true and the beautiful” are what we should focus on when evangelizing (obviously after purifying oneself of the passions to the best of their ability), but never heard something as clear as this… really refines the way I see myself founding how I speak to those in our day and age. What are some thoughts you have after reading this?

*You are in an Orthodox forum*

ArmyMatt · May 13, 2022

just that I wonder the context of this sermon.

that said, many non-Orthodox will accept Christ at their death. it’s just if they never let go of their error that’s the issue. and it strikes me he is also saying not to judge what God does or says according to man’s standards.

Lukaris · May 13, 2022

I have always believed that as Orthodox that I have an assurance of salvation ( not an assumption) if the Lord in His grace deems my life to have been worthy of salvation.

As to other Christians, I have understood that despite theological issues, there is still an ability to call upon the Lord & be saved ( Romans 10:9-13) & keeping the commandments ( Romans 13:8-10). It is here where I believe the Lord tests me to apply His commandments love God & neighbor ( Matthew 22:36-40) & not judge & apply the golden rule ( Matthew 7:1-12). I mean there are many non Orthodox Christians being murdered by Boko harum in Nigeria ( for ex.).

As to non Christians, there is no assurance of salvation ( but still a possibility within the mercy of God). Again, I try to apply the commandments to love God & neighbor & the golden rule. There is the great white throne of judgment ( Revelation 20) which I have understood that if I am saved, that the second death will not affect me. If I called myself a Christian & am affected here then I must be lost ( Matthew 7:21-23). It is here where the non Christian may still be written into the book of Life ( also Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:22-30).

I read the article.

nutroll · May 13, 2022

If I might employ my fallen reason, I think the danger is in reading this passage in isolation. what Saint Ignatius is saying is certainly true, but if we don't understand that the Lord's mercy endures forever, and that He desires not the death of a sinner but that he should turn and live, then we might think God a tyrant which would be counter to the gospel. What Saint Ignatius is saying is that we can't just say that God loves everybody, so everybody is ok. The things we believe matter, the actions we take which must be part of our faith matter.

Saint Paul indeed says "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." But we are mistaken if we think that just because something is pleasant to us that it must be the truth. We shouldn't be looking outside the Church for the truth in the first place, but if we come across something that seems good or beautiful outside the Church, we should check it against the Church. If it is true we will find that thing in the Church as well. If we don't find it in the Church then we should beware of our feelings about it.

I suspect as Fr. Matt does that context might be important. It sounds as if he is speaking to someone with very syncretistic views, and he is right then to correct them harshly. No doubt the person to whom he is responding already believes that God is merciful and full of love for mankind, but he is missing that God also expects us to turn from our wickedness and error and live.

ArmyMatt · May 13, 2022

nutroll said:
I suspect as Fr. Matt does that context might be important. It sounds as if he is speaking to someone with very syncretistic views, and he is right then to correct them harshly. No doubt the person to whom he is responding already believes that God is merciful and full of love for mankind, but he is missing that God also expects us to turn from our wickedness and error and live.

which was an issue in Russia at the time. St Theophan the recluse writes the same thing.

SingularityOne · May 15, 2022

ArmyMatt said:
just that I wonder the context of this sermon.

that said, many non-Orthodox will accept Christ at their death. it’s just if they never let go of their error that’s the issue. and it strikes me he is also saying not to judge what God does or says according to man’s standards.

Lukaris said:
I have always believed that as Orthodox that I have an assurance of salvation ( not an assumption) if the Lord in His grace deems my life to have been worthy of salvation.

As to other Christians, I have understood that despite theological issues, there is still an ability to call upon the Lord & be saved ( Romans 10:9-13) & keeping the commandments ( Romans 13:8-10). It is here where I believe the Lord tests me to apply His commandments love God & neighbor ( Matthew 22:36-40) & not judge & apply the golden rule ( Matthew 7:1-12). I mean there are many non Orthodox Christians being murdered by Boko harum in Nigeria ( for ex.).

As to non Christians, there is no assurance of salvation ( but still a possibility within the mercy of God). Again, I try to apply the commandments to love God & neighbor & the golden rule. There is the great white throne of judgment ( Revelation 20) which I have understood that if I am saved, that the second death will not affect me. If I called myself a Christian & am affected here then I must be lost ( Matthew 7:21-23). It is here where the non Christian may still be written into the book of Life ( also Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:22-30).

I read the article.

nutroll said:
If I might employ my fallen reason, I think the danger is in reading this passage in isolation. what Saint Ignatius is saying is certainly true, but if we don't understand that the Lord's mercy endures forever, and that He desires not the death of a sinner but that he should turn and live, then we might think God a tyrant which would be counter to the gospel. What Saint Ignatius is saying is that we can't just say that God loves everybody, so everybody is ok. The things we believe matter, the actions we take which must be part of our faith matter.

Saint Paul indeed says "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." But we are mistaken if we think that just because something is pleasant to us that it must be the truth. We shouldn't be looking outside the Church for the truth in the first place, but if we come across something that seems good or beautiful outside the Church, we should check it against the Church. If it is true we will find that thing in the Church as well. If we don't find it in the Church then we should beware of our feelings about it.

I suspect as Fr. Matt does that context might be important. It sounds as if he is speaking to someone with very syncretistic views, and he is right then to correct them harshly. No doubt the person to whom he is responding already believes that God is merciful and full of love for mankind, but he is missing that God also expects us to turn from our wickedness and error and live.

After reflecting a bit on what all of you said it seems that if one is seeking the “good, true, and beautiful” that’s what matters and one should connect on those points but without compromising the Truth of Christ in His Church in doing so when evangelizing. However, we have the wholeness of truth in Orthodoxy and don’t need to seek it elsewhere outside of the Church. However, those not in the Church (eg. heterodox, non-Christian, etc.) may be seeking the “good, true, and beautiful” and be saved. Although, both who is saved and who isn’t is up to God’s judgement. However, there’s a part in the article that says what I said in the last sentence was what wasn’t “correct,” so that’s more what I was wondering about.

Eloy Craft · May 16, 2022

Lukaris said:
if I am saved, that the second death will not affect me. If I called myself a Christian & am affected here then I must be lost ( Matthew 7:21-23). It is here where the non Christian may still be written into the book of Life ( also Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:22-30).

I hope I'm not too out of bounds for posting here but I read this and found it deeply inspiring. Thank you Lukaris.

ArmyMatt · May 16, 2022

SingularityOne said:
After reflecting a bit on what all of you said it seems that if one is seeking the “good, true, and beautiful” that’s what matters and one should connect on those points but without compromising the Truth of Christ in His Church in doing so when evangelizing. However, we have the wholeness of truth in Orthodoxy and don’t need to seek it elsewhere outside of the Church. However, those not in the Church (eg. heterodox, non-Christian, etc.) may be seeking the “good, true, and beautiful” and be saved. Although, both who is saved and who isn’t is up to God’s judgement. However, there’s a part in the article that says what I said in the last sentence was what wasn’t “correct,” so that’s more what I was wondering about.

what part?

SingularityOne · May 16, 2022

ArmyMatt said:
what part?

I will answer the question you have raised point by point, in as few words as possible. “Why,” you write, “cannot pagans, Moslems, and so-called heretics be saved? There are excellent people among them. To condemn these good people would be contrary to the Divine mercy! …Indeed, it is even contrary to sound human reason. –Heretics, after all, are Christians just the same. To consider oneself saved and the members of other faiths damned, is both foolish and extremely proud!”

ArmyMatt · May 16, 2022

SingularityOne said:
I will answer the question you have raised point by point, in as few words as possible. “Why,” you write, “cannot pagans, Moslems, and so-called heretics be saved? There are excellent people among them. To condemn these good people would be contrary to the Divine mercy! …Indeed, it is even contrary to sound human reason. –Heretics, after all, are Christians just the same. To consider oneself saved and the members of other faiths damned, is both foolish and extremely proud!”

I think that deals with ultimate judgment, which God alone knows.

SingularityOne · May 16, 2022

ArmyMatt said:
I think that deals with ultimate judgment, which God alone knows.

Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Not for my mind to focus on at all as that would fall into condemnation it seems.

ArmyMatt · May 17, 2022

SingularityOne said:
Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Not for my mind to focus on at all as that would fall into condemnation it seems.

indeed. the only judgment we should focus on is our own.

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Thoughts on this passage by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov?

SingularityOne

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ArmyMatt

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Lukaris

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nutroll

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ArmyMatt

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SingularityOne

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Eloy Craft

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ArmyMatt

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SingularityOne

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