Rod Dreher

Lord have mercy!

Lord have mercy on him!

Very sad.

I guess my first question would be whether both are genuinely committed to being in the Church, and if they are, then why they refused to love and whether they are willing to repent now and love.

That is a super-hard thing to do in a relationship where you have allowed resentment and hard feelings to build up for so long, but such is the command of our Lord. If one of the two absolutely refuses to do that, then the other cannot stop him or her from leaving (though one can choose to be faithful to one's marriage, just as a widow/er may choose to. But the one that refuses is essentially excommunicating themselves from the Church, whether they know it or not. Broad and easy is the way that leads to destruction. Narrow and hard is the way of salvation.

The person who really holds to the idea of following Christ should reject the idea of divorce, at the very least for him or herself, even if he or she cannot stop the other person. If neither mean to do that hard thing, then there is nothing to say. Divorce is the way of the world.

Having looked at what he posted, I'll say that I can see no justification for the divorce except the justifications the world offers that Christ pretty specifically excluded, limiting divorce exclusively to unrepentant infidelity, which Mr Dreher stresses is not the cause. All of the citing of the fathers generally always assumed such infidelity (or the death of a spouse, when speaking of remarriage), but we live in a time when no one exhorts Christian spouses - ones who both declare determination to continue as Christians in the Church - to remain faithful when marriage becomes hard (as it most often does) and everyone treats having a happy marriage as a matter of luck and not of one's will. We express regret, but we do not exhort or admonish our brothers and sisters to remain faithful. We fail to see that what we all do affects each other. We wrongly think the divorce of our brethren in the Church is not our business.

We all fall away through our sins, that is why we make a tragedy out of our lives. But we ought to at least admit that we are wrong to do so, and determine to do now what we should have done in the first place. But my sin affects you, and vice-versa, even if only via the butterfly effect. That's why we turn and bow to those behind us, asking forgiveness, before we go up to make our confessions.

LizaMarie said:

People treat happy marriage as a matter of luck and not of ones will. Very well put. Thank you.
I and my husband have had to work hard at our marriage of now nearly 30 years.
Someone once told me love is a decision. Then there's 1 Corinthians 13

I'm sure that's true of most every marriage. I agree with what you said above.
I do believe there are reasons a Christian spouse should leave(i.e. abuse)

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Leave, yes.
Divorce, no.

rusmeister said:

But my sin affects you, and vice-versa, even if only via the butterfly effect.

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and my repentance and steadfastness affect in the same way, only toward God as opposed to away from Him.

I read the OP divorce and thought “And cue Rus in 3, 2, …..” and there he was

gurneyhalleck1 said:

I read the OP divorce and thought “And cue Rus in 3, 2, …..” and there he was

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Well, Gurney, I have two signatures under my post. No one can refute what I have said, no one has refuted it; they can only deny, like Luke Skywalker upon learning of his true parentage. If you think you can refute it from the consensus of the fathers based on Holy Scripture, and our Tradition in general, go right ahead.

Being right about this sucks, because the truth about what Christian marriage is supposed to be (in the fallen world, between sinful spouses) is guaranteed to make one unpopular with a lot of people. People in my church know my attitude, and I am often the last to find out that yet another of our couples has divorced. I am not kidding about the pandemic nature of divorce (Covid is nothing by comparison, a passing thing). I don't enjoy speaking the truth. I feel sad that it is not obvious to everyone, thus driving me to say it. It is not obvious to a LOT of people who have come into the Church, even wonderful men like Mr Dreher (whose book, "How Dante Saved My Life" really impressed me). I have experienced PLENTY of pain in my own marriage, I have sinned myself, I have both suffered and inflicted, and have the most sympathy for those who choose to remain faithful and loving in their marriages when their spouses do not. THAT is the hardest row to hoe. But we are commanded to do that, regardless of what our spouses choose. Scripture has nothing to say about whether a marriage "works". That is 20th century language of the world that actually challenges Church teaching.

And the wonderful news is that it IS possible for one spouse, in remaining faithful and loving, to rekindle even the feelings we all long for, by not giving up on the seemingly dead campfire, by continuing to patiently blow on the darkened embers. Doing what is commanded, producing, making love when the feelings are gone, obeying, loving, rejecting the resentment, focusing on your own sins and repentance rather than your spouse's, CAN, with time and patience, restore the feelings, which are NOT what the marriage should be based on, in any event. That's not guranteed, but it IS very probable. It is truly hard to hate a person who insists on loving you, being daily kind to you, thoughtful, and caring, refusing to blame you or lift her/himself up in pride and anger, try though you might.

I just think it’s funny how people get obsessed about certain issues. You live, eat, drink, and breathe divorce, brother
Drop me an IM one of these days and update me how you’re doing! Worried about you!

rusmeister said:

Well, Gurney, I have two signatures under my post. No one can refute what I have said, no one has refuted it; they can only deny, like Luke Skywalker upon learning of his true parentage. If you think you can refute it from the consensus of the fathers based on Holy Scripture, and our Tradition in general, go right ahead.

Being right about this sucks, because the truth about what Christian marriage is supposed to be (in the fallen world, between sinful spouses) is guaranteed to make one unpopular with a lot of people. I don't enjoy speaking the truth. I feel sad that it is not obvious to everyone, thus driving me to say it. It is not obvious to a LOT of people who have come into the Church, even wonderful men like Mr Dreher (whose book, "How Dante Saved My Life" really impressed me). I have experienced PLENTY of pain in my own marriage, I have sinned myself, I have both suffered and inflicted, and have the most sympathy for those who choose to remain faithful and loving in their marriages when their spouses do not. THAT is the hardest row to hoe. But we are commanded to do that, regardless of what our spouses choose. Scripture has nothing to say about whether a marriage "works". That is 20th century language of the world that actually challenges Church teaching.

And the wonderful news is that it IS possible for one spouse, in remaining faithful and loving, to rekindle even the feelings we all long for, by not giving up on the seemingly dead campfire, by continuing to patiently blow on the darkened embers. Doing what is commanded, producing, making love when the feelings are gone, obeying, loving, rejecting the resentment, focusing on your own sins and repentance rather than your spouse's, CAN, with time and patience, restore the feelings, which are NOT what the marriage should be based on, in any event. That's not guranteed, but it IS very probable. It is truly hard to hate a person who insists on loving you, being daily kind to you, thoughtful, and caring, refusing to blame you or lift her/himself up in pride and anger, try though you might.

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LizaMarie said:

I was hoping not to cause too much controversy with this post! Heaven knows there is enough in the world already! Depressing! I probably should have put this up in the divorce thread! I myself am married to a divorced man which caused a barrier to our entry into the RCC when we looked into it(None of us were ever Catholic) so I certainly can't be judging anyone!

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Hi! It's not about judging anyone. It's about saying whether an action (not a person!) is good or not good in general, whether it is a form of sin/brokenness, or is something sanctified.

We all come into the Church messed up, having committed a variety of sins. We even continue sinning as Christians. The question is whether we admit that sin is sin, and need to turn away from it, or not. A person might have been married ten times in the world. But having entered the Church, they should not repeat the past wrongs. And if they do, they should admit that they are wrong, and repent. I know a man who divorced in the world, entered the Church, married again, and has been faithful ever since. That's good. Wrong understandings of marriage corrected. But people in the Church, who say their divorce from another Orthodox Christian (who also declares repentance) was good, right, and necessary, hold a wrong view of marriage. People usually cite extremely rare situations (axe-wielding murderers, etc) - the equivalent is done in the defense of abortion as well - to use extreme situations (1%) to whip up pity for the 100% when 99% of the cases are not so extreme and most are in the normal range. Most cases ARE acrimonious, but acrimony is something an Orthodox Christian should resist and not engage in.

So what you did in the past is only important in that you repent of it. The question is, "What are you going to do now, from here on out?" Baptism, confession - they give us fresh starts. What went before is hated, regretted, repented of - and left behind.

LizaMarie said:

I was hoping not to cause too much controversy with this post! Heaven knows there is enough in the world already! Depressing! I probably should have put this up in the divorce thread! I myself am married to a divorced man which caused a barrier to our entry into the RCC when we looked into it(None of us were ever Catholic) so I certainly can't be judging anyone!

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I didn’t think you caused anything controversial, personally.