The Trans Question...

loveofourlord

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Brains can be fixed through science. It's called Psychology.

And other procedures, this isn't the case that they THINK they are the wrong gender, but they literally are the wrong gender brain wise. That the hormones and such that developed their brain, developed it the wrong way. We have no way to alter the brain in the way needed, but we have ways of alterng the body.
 
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ottawak

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And other procedures, this isn't the case that they THINK they are the wrong gender, but they literally are the wrong gender brain wise. That the hormones and such that developed their brain, developed it the wrong way. We have no way to alter the brain in the way needed, but we have ways of alterng the body.
They can't possibly be the wrong gender brainwise. That would contradict conservative Christian doctrine and thus be an intolerable violation of Christians' First Amendment rights..
 
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Aldebaran

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And other procedures, this isn't the case that they THINK they are the wrong gender, but they literally are the wrong gender brain wise. That the hormones and such that developed their brain, developed it the wrong way. We have no way to alter the brain in the way needed, but we have ways of alterng the body.

Anyone who cuts off limbs because they think they're supposed to be limbless, or mutilates themselves in some other ways would agree with your conclusion. However, these are people who need help. Otherwise you could actually conclude that a depressed person who says they want to die should be assisted in killing themselves. I sure hope you don't believe that.
 
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loveofourlord

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Anyone who cuts off limbs because they think they're supposed to be limbless, or mutilates themselves in some other ways would agree with your conclusion. However, these are people who need help. Otherwise you could actually conclude that a depressed person who says they want to die should be assisted in killing themselves. I sure hope you don't believe that.

Ahhh yes straight to going to something extreme not talked about aren't you. You know the difference between there is a actual physical reality based reason for why someone is the wrong gender, and wanting to be limbless and such? Or is it Christian to mock people with actual medical conditions.
 
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Aldebaran

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Ahhh yes straight to going to something extreme not talked about aren't you. You know the difference between there is a actual physical reality based reason for why someone is the wrong gender, and wanting to be limbless and such? Or is it Christian to mock people with actual medical conditions.

I see you're not going to try understanding when someone tries to reason with you. So what's your so-called "physical reality based reason" that a person feels like a woman when they're actually a man?
 
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Aldebaran

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So your objections are how the condition is treated?
Well, that’s progress, I suppose.

Yep! Better to fix a problem at the source than to simply treat the symptoms.
If a person said they are wanting to die, what's the best treatment? Do you look for the most efficient way to help them achieve that goal, or do you ask questions and look into their background to find out what is wrong that make them feel that way?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Yep! Better to fix a problem at the source than to simply treat the symptoms.
If a person said they are wanting to die, what's the best treatment? Do you look for the most efficient way to help them achieve that goal, or do you ask questions and look into their background to find out what is wrong that make them feel that way?
First off, pretty significant difference between dying and changing your body to match your mental state. In only one of those cases are you dead, which is why we try to prevent people from committing suicide.

Second, it's rare that suicidal ideations are solved by therapy alone. Usually, some form of medication (typically an antidepressant - or several) is required. No such medication exists for body dysphoria, and even if it did, I don't know that all trans people would take it. As I asked earlier in the thread, how do you decide which takes precedent - your physical features or your mental features? Both are controlled by your genes - how do you know which one is actually incorrect in a case of body dysphoria? Furthermore, medications can have severe side effects, and some may not be willing to risk those side effects.

You can't force someone to take medication or go to therapy, and you haven't provided any real arguments for why gender affirmation surgery should be banned, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.
 
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Belk

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Anyone who cuts off limbs because they think they're supposed to be limbless, or mutilates themselves in some other ways would agree with your conclusion. However, these are people who need help. Otherwise you could actually conclude that a depressed person who says they want to die should be assisted in killing themselves. I sure hope you don't believe that.

I agree. The experts who specialize in this area have found that transitioning is the best help we can provide at this point. Yet I see so many arguing against this.
 
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Aldebaran

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First off, pretty significant difference between dying and changing your body to match your mental state. In only one of those cases are you dead, which is why we try to prevent people from committing suicide.

Second, it's rare that suicidal ideations are solved by therapy alone. Usually, some form of medication (typically an antidepressant - or several) is required. No such medication exists for body dysphoria, and even if it did, I don't know that all trans people would take it. As I asked earlier in the thread, how do you decide which takes precedent - your physical features or your mental features? Both are controlled by your genes - how do you know which one is actually incorrect in a case of body dysphoria? Furthermore, medications can have severe side effects, and some may not be willing to risk those side effects.

You can't force someone to take medication or go to therapy, and you haven't provided any real arguments for why gender affirmation surgery should be banned, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.

Why do you bring up "force"? I could claim that nobody can force someone to get a sex change, but it would be no more relevant than what you're claiming. I'm simply presenting the fact that a person's thoughts are much easier to change than a person's body. Far more reversible too.
 
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Aldebaran

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I agree. The experts who specialize in this area have found that transitioning is the best help we can provide at this point. Yet I see so many arguing against this.

Is that a case for allowing children who are yet to grow and mature to transition?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Why do you bring up "force"? I could claim that nobody can force someone to get a sex change, but it would be no more relevant than what you're claiming. I'm simply presenting the fact that a person's thoughts are much easier to change than a person's body. Far more reversible too.
I bring up force because the way that you've worded your posts on the subject suggest that you think that therapy and medication (if/when it becomes available) should be the only solutions available.
 
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Aldebaran

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I bring up force because the way that you've worded your posts on the subject suggest that you think that therapy and medication (if/when it becomes available) should be the only solutions available.

It doesn't have to be the only solution, but certainly the primary ones.
 
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Pommer

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It doesn't have to be the only solution, but certainly the primary ones.
This begs the question then, “how many transgender persons have surgery as part of their treatment?”

Offhand I, myself, would guess that it is way below 50%.

[EDIT]
VOX said:
The 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey found 61 percent of trans and gender nonconforming respondents reported having medically transitioned, and 33 percent said they had surgically transitioned. About 14 percent of trans women and 72 percent of trans men said they don’t ever want full genital construction surgery.
[Emphasis mine]
[Source]
It looks like therapy’s working fine!

Well how about that?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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It doesn't have to be the only solution, but certainly the primary ones.
My understanding is that doctors will currently only perform gender affirmation surgery on patients who have undergone extensive therapy and counseling beforehand, and you can't just walk in and get hormone therapy either.
 
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Aldebaran

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My understanding is that doctors will currently only perform gender affirmation surgery on patients who have undergone extensive therapy and counseling beforehand, and you can't just walk in and get hormone therapy either.

Does that include teenagers?

A gender transition is a process you can go through to express your gender. There are many ways you can transition, including:
Health Care for Transgender Teens

  • Changing how you dress or act

  • Changing your name and preferred pronouns (she, he, they, etc.)

  • Taking medication (including puberty blockers and hormone treatment)

  • Having surgery
 
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Ana the Ist

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First off, pretty significant difference between dying and changing your body to match your mental state. In only one of those cases are you dead, which is why we try to prevent people from committing suicide.

Second, it's rare that suicidal ideations are solved by therapy alone. Usually, some form of medication (typically an antidepressant - or several) is required. No such medication exists for body dysphoria, and even if it did, I don't know that all trans people would take it. As I asked earlier in the thread, how do you decide which takes precedent - your physical features or your mental features? Both are controlled by your genes - how do you know which one is actually incorrect in a case of body dysphoria? Furthermore, medications can have severe side effects, and some may not be willing to risk those side effects.

You can't force someone to take medication or go to therapy, and you haven't provided any real arguments for why gender affirmation surgery should be banned, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.

Actually, you can force someone into medical care. Physical harm to one's self or others is the standard.
 
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Ana the Ist

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My understanding is that doctors will currently only perform gender affirmation surgery on patients who have undergone extensive therapy and counseling beforehand, and you can't just walk in and get hormone therapy either.

That doesn't seem to be the case.
 
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I've said this a million times, but I just find the problems against transw people just stupid. I'm sorry, but why is it that we can realize that the sex someone has doesn't always fit their genitals and such, but as soon as it's the brain it's suddenly fake, and making it all up, or wrong. The brain is far far more complicated then anything else in the body, why is it so hard for people to clue in that the way the brain functions and works can not completely corelate to their genitals and chromosones.

I'm pretty sure nearly everyone here acknowledges this possibility.
 
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