Why God can Save the world

wendykvw · May 6, 2022

He does great things too marvelous to understand. He performs countless miracles.
~Job 5:9 (NLT)

According to exclusive teachings, all hope of salvation is lost at the moment of death. This is irrational to accept when God requires the following from unrighteous people.

1. We are to always forgive those who offend us.
~Matthew 6:12

2. Bless those who persecute us.
~ Luke 6:28

3. Love those who hate us.
~ Luke 6:35

4. Pray for our enemies.
~ Matthew 5:44

5. Keeps no record of wrongs committed against us.
~1 Corinthians 13:5

6. Extend Mercy to those who offend us.
~ Matthew 5:7

7. Never let anger control us.
~ Eph 4:27

8. Be kind to everyone.
~ Eph 4:32

9. Visit those who are in prison.
~Matt 25:36

10. Love Unconditionally
~2 Tim 4:16

God is holy and cannot break His own mandates and laws. God does not create to destroy, nor did He create only to allow suffering for all eternity.

Ephesians 3 verses 14-15 states that every family will be blessed by Grace.

For this reason [seeing the greatness of this plan by which you are built together in Christ], I bow my knees before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, For whom every family in heaven and on earth is named [that Father from Whom all fatherhood takes its title and derives its name]. (AMP)

Ephesians Chapter 3 Verse 19 promises that Christ is going to surpass all expectations.

For this reason {seeing the greatness of this plan by which you are built together in Christ], I bow my knees before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (AMP)

Ephesians Chapter 4 verses 9-10 speak of the entire universe being filled with Christ.

He who descended is the [very] same as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things (the whole universe, from the lowest to the highest). (AMP)

The Apostle Paul mentions seven times in the book of Ephesians the mystery of God’s plan, (bringing to completion) the salvation of His entire creation.

1. Ephesians 1:9 (AMP)

Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in Him.

2. Ephesians 3:3 (AMP)

[And] that the mystery (secret) was made known to me and I was allowed to comprehend it by direct revelation, as I already briefly wrote you.

3. Ephesians 3:4 (AMP)

When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.

4. Ephesians 3:5 (AMP)
[This mystery] was never disclosed to human beings in past generations as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles (consecrated messengers) and prophets by the [Holy] Spirit.

5. Ephesians 3:9 (AMP)

Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan [regarding the Gentiles and providing for the salvation of all men] of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus.

6. Ephesians 5:32 (AMP)

This mystery is very great, but I speak concerning [the relation of] Christ and the church.

7. Ephesians 6:19 (AMP)

And [pray] also for me, that [freedom of] utterance may be given me, that I may open my mouth to proclaim boldly the mystery of the good news (the Gospel),[/QUOTE]

Clare73 · May 6, 2022

wendykvw said:
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Do not be overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself?

And appropriating your error to God's word is not self-righteous?

JulieB67 · May 6, 2022

wendykvw said:
You are interpreting scripture based on your own bias and presuppositions

Which scriptures? The one where Christ calls the Lake of Fire the second death? I asked you a question about that and you didn't even have an answer. What does the word death in the Greek mean to you? That's an honest question. I would think since these are Christ's own words they would be of importance to you.

I have no bias. I once believed many doctrines that I have dropped when later on I found out they weren't biblical. If something can't be backed up in scripture, we need to drop that doctrine. God's word has to come before man's.

wendykvw said:
Also, don't be so angry that God loves those who do not love Him.

Who's angry lol?? I love the fact that God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. There's a condition there that you keep forgetting. -repentance.
Being thrown into the Lake of Fire is the second death. It's not refining, it's not redemptive. It's death. If you take that word back to the Greek, that's what it is. It's not life eternal. And most important, there's not one verse stating that someone who goes into the Lake of Fire after Judgement Day comes back out.

You keep posting all these verses with no context behind them. Do you read every book this way?

Mark Quayle · May 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Rather uncreative misapplication of NT teaching.

Not to mention a misquoting of the Word of God.

@wendykvw When it says that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, it doesn't say that every tongue will swear allegiance as some versions put it, because there is contextual reason to believe here is where they realize their mistake, when they see him in his purity, they are undone, and can do no other than to admit he is Lord after all, and not them. There is no hint in that of the submission and love of a changed heart, but of dread and regret. That is contextual in the larger context of the whole Bible, and in the immediate context; read, for example, verse 24, in contrast with 25.
"24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
are deliverance and strength.’”
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.
25 But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord
and will make their boast in him."

Leaf473 · May 6, 2022

I believe there's a translation issue here. Some translators feel that "allegiance" is implied.

“I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."
New American Standard Bible
Isaiah 45:23

Jeff Saunders · May 6, 2022

I think the problem most people have is they think it’s a choice between heaven or hell and that is not the choice that Jesus offered. It’s a choice of do you want to be part of Jesus family and rule and reign with him or are you going to be part of those who will be reigned over. Those who follow Jesus while in the mortal body partake in his death ( pick up your cross and follow me daily) and for that we become part of Jesus family, that is why he says I no longer call you slaves but brothers. That is why Jesus prayed to the Father for us to be one with him as he is one with the Father. It’s about sonship not a place. Yes we are citizens of heaven but so are all the Old Testament people who followed God , he never gave those people that offer they were offered a promise land a new city ext. So I think that those who reject what Jesus is offering will be the subject of his reign those he will rule with a rod of iron. I really think this is what Jesus was getting at with the teaching about the kings sons don’t pay taxes but it’s those who are the kings subjects that do, he is making a distinction between the kings family over and above those who the king ruled over. I also wonder if Rev 22:15 talking about those who can’t go in the New Jerusalem are those very people who come out of the lake of fire and will live on the New Earth as Adam lived on the first earth, but because they are not citizens of heaven can not go into the New Jerusalem. I keep seeing over and over that people keep saying all will go to heaven but I don’t think so but many will be on the New Earth. I find it funny that most Christians don’t see a problem with the church ruling with Jesus during the millennium but to say we will do the same on the New Earth they think it’s crazy talk.

Clare73 · May 6, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
I think the problem most people have is they think it’s a choice between heaven or hell and that is not the choice that Jesus offered.
It’s a choice of do you want to be part of Jesus family and rule and reign with him or are you going to be part of those who will be reigned over.

Hi, Jeff,

Actually, the NT teaches that the two choices are belief in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin, and heaven,
or unbelief in Jesus Christ, and eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).
Reigning over, or being reigned over is contrary to NT apostolic teaching, with which all interpretation of prophecy must agree.

wendykvw · May 7, 2022

Clare73 said:
And appropriating your error to God's word is not self-righteous?

Self-righteousness looks like this and applies to those who belittle others. For example, claiming your biblical interpretations are infallible and those who do not agree with your views are spreading "heresy". As a reminder, you are not in the same position as the 12 disciples who walked and talked with Christ. You are basing your interpretations on your Arminianism view.

Religion has a history of people using the Bible or other inspired writings to justify their pride or prejudiced behavior. Many hate-based groups use the Bible to support their abuse of other people. " A self-righteous attitude" will lead people to do terrible things to their fellowmen. For example, the beloved John Calvin sent people who did not agree with him to be burned alive. I am sure that had nothing to do with his view that God allows torment and torture for eternity.

And it is so ironic that pagan religions also believe in "hell" that confines people to remain in utter torment for eternity. Yet, The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution prohibits the federal government from imposing cruel and unusual punishments. This amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the United States Bill of Rights. The self-righteous will believe and do terrible things to other people. It is not a good look and is discouraged in the scriptures. Yet Christians apply satanic attributes to God insisting that God will allow His creation that He came to rescue from their fallen condition to be inflicted with endless pain and suffering.

"To Him who [earnestly,] remembered us in our low estate and imprinted us[on His heart], for His mercy and loving-kindness endure forever."

Psalms 136:23

wendykvw · May 7, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Not to mention a misquoting of the Word of God.

@wendykvw When it says that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, it doesn't say that every tongue will swear allegiance as some versions put it, because there is contextual reason to believe here is where they realize their mistake, when they see him in his purity, they are undone, and can do no other than to admit he is Lord after all, and not them. There is no hint in that of the submission and love of a changed heart, but of dread and regret. That is contextual in the larger context of the whole Bible, and in the immediate context; read, for example, verse 24, in contrast with 25.
"24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
are deliverance and strength.’”
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.
25 But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord
and will make their boast in him."

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Sounds like you wear a pair of Calvinism glasses when you interpret the scriptures.

wendykvw · May 7, 2022

JulieB67 said:
Which scriptures? The one where Christ calls the Lake of Fire the second death? I asked you a question about that and you didn't even have an answer. What does the word death in the Greek mean to you? That's an honest question. I would think since these are Christ's own words they would be of importance to you.

I have no bias. I once believed many doctrines that I have dropped when later on I found out they weren't biblical. If something can't be backed up in scripture, we need to drop that doctrine. God's word has to come before man's.

Who's angry lol?? I love the fact that God is long-suffering and not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. There's a condition there that you keep forgetting. -repentance.
Being thrown into the Lake of Fire is the second death. It's not refining, it's not redemptive. It's death. If you take that word back to the Greek, that's what it is. It's not life eternal. And most important, there's not one verse stating that someone who goes into the Lake of Fire after Judgement Day comes back out.

You keep posting all these verses with no context behind them. Do you read every book this way?

Of course, everyone has a bias and views scriptures based on their own presuppositions. It is often asserted that scripture is very clear, but if it is so clear, we would not see so many different theological interpretations, and denominations Each has a different theological view on every major doctrine within the Christian Faith. Here are a few examples:
• To a Roman Catholic Saving Grace is communicated through the seven sacraments.
• To the Lutheran Grace is through faith alone.
• For an Anabaptist Sacraments are only symbols and do not provide saving grace.
• Those of a Reformed view see Salvation as determined by God, and not by human will.
• To an Arminian Salvation is determined by human free will.

I want to add that while all read the same book and come away with different interpretations, each and everyone loves God and is doing the best that they can to understand our world, and how to better share the Historical Christ with the world. Please do not mock or condemn those who view God individually and personally in their own determination to understand the written word. No one is without error.

Beginning in the early church there have always been varied and differing opinions on almost every theological topic; there has never been a consensus.

As far as your claim that the "fire" is not refining or redemptive this is based on your opinion and does not hold up to Early Chruch history. Protestantism is weak and anemic in their understandings of Church History. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Judaism have understood the "temporal" fires that are medicinal. God will remove all wickedness without the necessity for eternal extermination or eternal hell. Everyone will be transformed into the image they were created, the image of God. Therefore it is the wickedness that will be removed. God heals the blind, and raises the dead, nothing is impossible for Him.

wendykvw · May 7, 2022

Clare73 said:
Physician, heal thyself.

The best Rx in the world is the Great Physician, Christ Jesus. The sacrifice Christ made is truly a gift to all creation and it is an honor to share the good news."

Hmm · May 7, 2022

wendykvw said:
Yet Christians apply satanic attributes to God insisting that God will allow His creation that He came to rescue from their fallen condition to be inflicted with endless pain and suffering.

wendykvw said:
For example, the beloved John Calvin sent people who did not agree with him to be burned alive.

Calvin said himself that he did things like this out of love because by killing people in the most horrible ways imaginable unless they repented and believed like he did he was doing all he could to save them from an even worse fate, that of eternal torture in hell. It's a pity he didn't pause for a minute and asked himself whether he might have got it wrong but natural doubt and questioning is often perceived as a lack of faith by many Christians. In fact, it's the opposite.

Hmm · May 7, 2022

Thinking about Calvin and all the horrible consequences that flowed from his belief in ECT reminded me of a book I read once called "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer. It gives an interesting insight into the indoctrinated mind.

In one part, he's talking about how, even though he knew the truth about the Nazi regime, he felt like he was going crazy surrounded by so many brainwashed people. Propaganda works and he illustrates this in this extract. The bolding's mine.

"I myself was to experience how easily one is taken in by a lying and censored press and radio in a totalitarian state.

Though unlike most Germans I had daily access to foreign newspapers, especially those of London, Paris, and Zurich, which arrived the day after publication, and though I listened regularly to the BBC and other foreign broadcasts, my job necessitated the spending of many hours a day in combing the German press, checking the German radio, conferring with Nazi officials and going to party meetings.

It was surprising and sometimes consternating to find that notwithstanding the opportunities I had to learn the facts and despite one's inherent distrust of what one learned from Nazi sources, a steady diet over the years of falsifications and distortions made a certain impression on one's mind and often misled it. No one who has not lived for years in a totalitarian land can possibly conceive how difficult it is to escape the dread consequences of a regime's calculated and incessant propaganda.

Often in a German home or office or sometimes in a casual conversation with a stranger in a restaurant, a beer hall, a cafe, I would meet with the most outlandish assertions from seemingly educated and intelligent persons. It was obvious that they were parroting some piece of nonsense they had heard on the radio or read in the newspapers.

Sometimes one was tempted to say as much, but on such occasions one was met with such a stare of incredulity, such a shock of silence, as if one had blasphemed the Almighty, that one realized how useless it was even to try to make contact with a mind which had become warped and for whom the facts of life had become what Hitler and Goebbels, with their cynical disregard for truth, said they were."

Jeff Saunders · May 7, 2022

Clare73 said:
Hi, Jeff,

Actually, the NT teaches that the two choices are belief in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin, and heaven,
or unbelief in Jesus Christ, and eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).
Reigning over, or being reigned over is contrary to NT apostolic teaching, with which all interpretation of prophecy must agree.

If you think that we will not reign with Jesus you need to read 1Cor6:1-3, 2Tim 2:12, Rev 20:4, Rev5:10,Dan7:27,Rev 2:25-26, Matt 25:20-21 , all these verses say in one form or the other that as part of Jesus family we will reign and rule with him.and then you have to ask yourself who do we rule over? All those who are not part of the family but are subjects of that rule. I think that is what Jesus was showing in Matt17:24-26 giving us a hint of what was to come. I know we have always been taught that it is a heaven or hell choice but I think maybe it’s much much more. That is why Paul said we can’t even imagine what God has waiting for those who love him.

Jeff Saunders · May 7, 2022

wendykvw said:
Of course, everyone has a bias and views scriptures based on their own presuppositions. It is often asserted that scripture is very clear, but if it is so clear, we would not see so many different theological interpretations, and denominations Each has a different theological view on every major doctrine within the Christian Faith. Here are a few examples:
• To a Roman Catholic Saving Grace is communicated through the seven sacraments.
• To the Lutheran Grace is through faith alone.
• For an Anabaptist Sacraments are only symbols and do not provide saving grace.
• Those of a Reformed view see Salvation as determined by God, and not by human will.
• To an Arminian Salvation is determined by human free will.

I want to add that while all read the same book and come away with different interpretations, each and everyone loves God and is doing the best that they can to understand our world, and how to better share the Historical Christ with the world. Please do not mock or condemn those who view God individually and personally in their own determination to understand the written word. No one is without error. Share

Beginning in the early church there have always been varied and differing opinions on almost every theological topic; there has never been a consensus.

As far as your claim that the "fire" is not refining or redemptive this is based on your opinion and does not hold up to Early Chruch history. Protestantism is weak and anemic in their understandings of Church History. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Judaism have understood the "temporal" fires that are medicinal. God will remove all wickedness without the necessity for eternal extermination or eternal hell. Everyone will be transformed into the image they were created, the image of God. Therefore it is the wickedness that will be removed. God heals the blind, and raises the dead, nothing is impossible for Him.

I used to believe Calvinist were not Christians because they don’t worship the God of the Bible but the Holy Spirit had to get ahold of my heart and remind me we all have error in our beliefs, He is infinite we are finite and flawed because of sin, so who am I to say that they are not Christian’s that’s Gods job not mine. Now I just say they don’t know the full love of God yet and someday they will just like in my life there is much I don’t know about the Father but someday I will.

FreeinChrist · May 7, 2022

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Why God can Save the world

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