IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9?

SkyWriting

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Passing the Test
Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
 
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SkyWriting

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There's a warning about teaching against what Jesus taught:

Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(fulfil = accomplish (1), accomplished (1), amply supplied (1), approaching (1), complete (1), completed (3), completing (1), elapsed (1), fill (3), filled (16), fills (1), finished (1), fulfill (20), fulfilled (20), fully carry (1), fully come (1), fully preached (1), increasing (1), made complete (2), made full (5), make...full (1), make...complete (1), passed (2), supply (1).)
 
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Leaf473

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Not really. See Romans 13:8-10. Love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law not breaking God's law which is why Jesus say "On these two commandments" of love to God and man "hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40. No one therefore can claim to love God or even know God according to the scripture by breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *see James 2:10-11; 1 John 5:2-3; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9; Matthew 7:21-23; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law or that God's 10 commandments are abolished).
Well... I was talking about my experience, and Yes, that is my experience in discussing various law keeping theologies.

If we say that love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law, that sounds good so far. Now let's move to the practical application.

Before we can put it into practice, we have to know what God's law is. I believe your particular theology is that God's law is the ten commandments plus some other laws, which must be kept to the letter.

Then, in order to put it into practice, we need to know what those letters are. And that's where things break down in my experience.

If I ask what those letters are, the responses generally go like this:

The laws regarding the remission of sin and levitical priesthood ended. (That says what the letters aren't, not what they are.)

The moral law remains (That's a category, not letters.)

The ten commandments, plus tithing and health laws. (The ten commandments is specific, but the other two again are categories.)

If you would like to expand my experience and give references for the passages where the letters are found, that would be great!

May the Lord bless you and keep you!
 
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Leaf473

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Not when repentence is built-in. Matthew 5:22-24.
Hi Ligurian,

Nice to meet you.

The law keeping theologies that I've had experience with, at least in discussions, are Messianic/Hebrew Roots, Seventh Day Adventist, and Church of God (I think).

Those theologies all break down at the practical level, in my experience. To put it a different way, it's when talking about the details of which laws to keep and how to go about keeping them that the adherents usually stop responding.

Do you promote one of the above theologies? If not, maybe there is a law keeping theology I'm not familiar with? Maybe I'll have a different experience on this thread!

May the Lord bless you and keep you!
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I believe your particular theology is that God's law is the ten commandments plus some other laws, which must be kept to the letter.
This section of your post shows to me that you have a misunderstanding and a wrong view of what I believe. I do not believe we keep the letter of the law of God's Word to be saved. What I do believe is that the letter of Gods' Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 and that we are saved by God's Grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith in Gods' Word leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63 allowing God to work in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure *Philippians 2:13 because without Jesus we can do nothing *John 15:1-5. This is why Jesus says truly truly I say to you unless a man in born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. We need to be born again into Gods new covenant promise to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 because all we can do without Jesus is sin because we are sinners *Romans 3:9-20 and do not love *John 5:42. In order to follow God therefore we need to be born again in the Spirit through faith in Gods' Word to believe and follow what Gods 'Word says *Galatians 5:15. This is Gods' new covenant promise. Therefore it is faith in the letter of God's Word that leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *see John 6:63 in order to be born again into God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). It is only through love that we can obey God's law *see 1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15 and love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. God's law shows us how to love God and how to love our neighbor as our self *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 5:2-4. Before we can walk in the Spirit of God's Word therefore we need to know the letter of Gods' Word because God's Spirit works through the letter of Gods' Word as we believe what Gods Word says (faith).
Then, in order to put it into practice, we need to know what those letters are. And that's where things break down in my experience. If I ask what those letters are, the responses generally go like this: The laws regarding the remission of sin and levitical priesthood ended. (That says what the letters aren't, not what they are.) The moral law remains (That's a category, not letters.) The ten commandments, plus tithing and health laws. (The ten commandments is specific, but the other two again are categories.) If you would like to expand my experience and give references for the passages where the letters are found, that would be great! May the Lord bless you and keep you!
That would not be my response to you and is not what I believe at all either. If your asking me what those letters are then my response would be to you all of God's Word as we are saved by Gods' grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. So we have access to Gods' Grace and salvation through faith which saves us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. It is faith in God's Word that leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63 so that we can be born again to love.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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Leaf473

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This section of your post shows to me that you have a misunderstanding and a wrong view of what I believe. I do not believe we keep the letter of the law of God's Word to be saved. What I do believe is that the letter of Gods' Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 and that we are saved by God's Grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith in Gods' Word leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63 allowing God to work in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure *Philippians 2:13 because without Jesus we can do nothing *John 15:1-5. This is why Jesus says truly truly I say to you unless a man in born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. We need to be born again into Gods new covenant promise to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 because all we can do without Jesus is sin because we are sinners *Romans 3:9-20 and do not love *John 5:42. In order to follow God therefore we need to be born again in the Spirit through faith in Gods' Word to believe and follow what Gods 'Word says *Galatians 5:15. This is Gods' new covenant promise. Therefore it is faith in the letter of God's Word that leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *see John 6:63 in order to be born again into God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). It is only through love that we can obey God's law *see 1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15 and love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. God's law shows us how to love God and how to love our neighbor as our self *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 5:2-4. Before we can walk in the Spirit of God's Word therefore we need to know the letter of Gods' Word because God's Spirit works through the letter of Gods' Word as we believe what Gods Word says (faith).

That would not be my response to you and is not what I believe at all either. If your asking me what those letters are then my response would be to you all of God's Word as we are saved by Gods' grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. So we have access to Gods' Grace and salvation through faith which saves us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. It is faith in God's Word that leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63 so that we can be born again to love.

Hope this is helpful.
Right, I don't think that you believe that we keep the the ten commandments plus some other laws in order to be saved. I do think that you believe that not keeping the ten commandments plus some other laws is sin.

I have asked what the letters of the the other laws are. I know what the ten commandments are, but not the letters of the other laws that you keep.

I know that you do not believe that we are to keep certain laws, laws about animal sacrifices for example. Or did I misunderstand you? Do you believe that today we are to keep every law in the Bible?

Or do you believe that we are to keep the principles of all the laws, but we don't have to keep those laws to the letter?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Right, I don't think that you believe that we keep the the ten commandments plus some other laws in order to be saved. I do think that you believe that not keeping the ten commandments plus some other laws is sin.

I have asked what the letters of the the other laws are. I know what the ten commandments are, but not the letters of the other laws that you keep.

I know that you do not believe that we are to keep certain laws, laws about animal sacrifices for example. Or did I misunderstand you? Do you believe that today we are to keep every law in the Bible?

Or do you believe that we are to keep the principles of all the laws, but we don't have to keep those laws to the letter?

Simply, it is not about following the letter of the law it is about believing the letter of the Word. This leads us to the Spirit of the Word as shown in John 6:63 that we receive through faith *Romans 10:17 as we believe what Gods' Word says *John 3:36. We receive the letter of God's Word by reading the bible. We receive the Spirit of the Word of God by believing what Gods' Word says.
 
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Leaf473

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Simply, it is not about following the letter of the law it is about believing the letter of the Word. This leads us to the Spirit of the Word as shown in John 6:63 that we receive through faith *Romans 10:17 as we believe what Gods' Word says *John 3:36. We receive the letter of God's Word by reading the bible. We receive the Spirit of the Word of God by believing what Gods' Word says.
Okay... Are you saying that we don't need to follow the letters of any of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: Simply, it is not about following the letter of the law it is about believing the letter of the Word. This leads us to the Spirit of the Word as shown in John 6:63 that we receive through faith *Romans 10:17 as we believe what Gods' Word says *John 3:36. We receive the letter of God's Word by reading the bible. We receive the Spirit of the Word of God by believing what Gods' Word says.
Your response here...
Okay... Are you saying that we don't need to follow the letters of any of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy?
I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am saying to be honest. What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36? If you do not know the letter of God's Word then how can you have faith in God's Word according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26 when it is the letter we are to have faith in before we receive God's Spirit? Obedience to God's Word is the fruit of genuine faith according to the scriptures. *see also Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; Hebrews 11. They are not separate from each other. The letter of God's Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 so that we can receive the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63.
 
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Leaf473

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Your response here...

I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am saying to be honest. What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36? If you do not follow the letter of God's Word then you do not have faith according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26? Obedience to God's Word is the fruit of genuine faith according to the scriptures. *see also Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; Hebrews 11. They are not separate from each other. The letter of God's Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 so that we can receive the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63.
Looking at this part here:
I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am saying to be honest.
Well... For one thing, it seems different from what I understood you to be saying in the past. That's fine if something is changed, hopefully we are all learning and growing.

Another thing is I don't know if your answer to this question is Yes or No.
Okay... Are you saying that we don't need to follow the letters of any of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy?
 
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Ligurian

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Hi Ligurian,

Nice to meet you.

The law keeping theologies that I've had experience with, at least in discussions, are Messianic/Hebrew Roots, Seventh Day Adventist, and Church of God (I think).

Those theologies all break down at the practical level, in my experience. To put it a different way, it's when talking about the details of which laws to keep and how to go about keeping them that the adherents usually stop responding.

Do you promote one of the above theologies? If not, maybe there is a law keeping theology I'm not familiar with? Maybe I'll have a different experience on this thread!

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom, which contains the Oridinances of the Davidic Covenant, starting with the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus calls it both Law and Commandments, Matthew 5:17-20. Deuteronomy 18:18-19 is prophecy about these words Jesus speaks, and Jesus confirms it in John 12:44-50. These are parallel verses and come with a built-in warning.

It is the new wine of the New Covenant, spoken of here:

Matthew 9:15-17 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

And here:

Matthew 11:25-30 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight. All things are delivered unto Me of My Father, and no man knoweth the Son but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls: for My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

It is obvious to me that "heavy laden" is the "burden" in Matthew 23:4. So it's not the Law of Moses and/or that which Moses allowed due to their hard hearts (Matthew 19:3-8). ... Jesus' yoke is the Davidic Covenant for the Davidic Kingdom, offered to those who hear the One Shepherd (John 10:1-16) speaking the words of the Father.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am saying to be honest. What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36? If you do not follow the letter of God's Word then you do not have faith according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26? Obedience to God's Word is the fruit of genuine faith according to the scriptures. *see also Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; Hebrews 11. They are not separate from each other. The letter of God's Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 so that we can receive the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63.
Your response here...
Looking at this part here:

Well... For one thing, it seems different from what I understood you to be saying in the past. That's fine if something is changed, hopefully we are all learning and growing.

Another thing is I don't know if your answer to this question is Yes or No.

Read what has been posted to you. Nothing has changed in what I have been sharing with you from the scriptures. I see you are avoiding my last questions to you asking for clarification. What do you think my posts are saying to you?
 
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Leaf473

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I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom, which contains the Oridinances of the Davidic Covenant, starting with the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus calls it both Law and Commandments, Matthew 5:17-20. Deuteronomy 18:18-19 is prophecy about these words Jesus speaks, and Jesus confirms it in John 12:44-50. These are parallel verses and come with a built-in warning.

It is the new wine of the New Covenant, spoken of here:

Matthew 9:15-17 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

And here:

Matthew 11:25-30 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight. All things are delivered unto Me of My Father, and no man knoweth the Son but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls: for My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

It is obvious to me that "heavy laden" is the "burden" in Matthew 23:4. So it's not the Law of Moses and/or that which Moses allowed due to their hard hearts (Matthew 19:3-8). ... Jesus' yoke is the Davidic Covenant for the Davidic Kingdom, offered to those who hear the One Shepherd (John 10:1-16) speaking the words of the Father.
Sounds interesting!

What you're describing there doesn't really sound like a law keeping theology imo.

What I was talking about was the idea that some of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy
(usually the ten commandments plus some others)
must be very carefully followed today,
followed to the letter.

Thanks for the details!
 
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Leaf473

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Your response here...


Read what has been posted to you. Nothing has changed in what I have been sharing with you from the scriptures. I see you are avoiding my last questions to you asking for clarification. What do you think my posts are saying to you?
Do you mean this question?
What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36?
I don't think what you say there was difficult to understand.

But what I was talking about was my experience that people who say that we must keep the ten commandments plus some other laws to the letter -
that not keeping them is sin -
won't say what those letters are.

So... do You believe that we not keeping the ten commandments plus another laws to the letter is sin?

Now... was there an additional question you wanted me to respond to?
 
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Leaf473

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Your response here...


Read what has been posted to you. Nothing has changed in what I have been sharing with you from the scriptures. I see you are avoiding my last questions to you asking for clarification. What do you think my posts are saying to you?
____________
What do you think my posts are saying to you?
I think they are saying that we don't have to keep the law in order to be saved. And I agree with that.

But when I say "law keeping theology" I mean the idea that not keeping some set of laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy is sin.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Do you mean this question?
Now... was there an additional question you wanted me to respond to?

There were more questions asked mainly to help the discussion and help answer your questions based around the scriptures. It does not seem you are understanding my post to you for some reason that already answer your questions with scripture, and you seem to be trying to avoid discussing the posts I have already written for you. These were some of the other questions already posted below in some of my posts you have not responded to..
  • What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36?
  • If you do not know the letter of God's Word then how can you have faith in God's Word according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26 when it is the letter we are to have faith in before we receive God's Spirit?
  • What do you think my posts are saying to you? (start with post # 105 linked) and tell me how this post does not answer your questions to me?
Perhaps take some time and start over and prayerfully take time to read and understand the posts and scriptures shared with you earlier. Start with post # 105 linked what do you think it is saying and how do you think it might address your earlier questions and claims you were making?

Take Care.
 
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Leaf473

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There were more questions asked mainly to help the discussion and help answer your questions based around the scriptures. It does not seem you are understanding my post to you for some reason that already answer your questions with scripture, and you seem to be trying to avoid discussing the posts I have already written for you. These were some of the other questions already posted below in some of my posts you have not responded to..
  • What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36?
  • If you do not know the letter of God's Word then how can you have faith in God's Word according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26 when it is the letter we are to have faith in before we receive God's Spirit?
  • What do you think my posts are saying to you? (start with post # 105 linked) and tell me how this post does not answer your questions to me?
Perhaps take some time and start over and prayerfully take time to read and understand the posts and scriptures shared with you earlier. Start with post # 105 linked what do you think it is saying and how do you think it might address your earlier questions and claims you were making?

Take Care.
I think I am coming to understand your posts, but I don't understand how they relate to what I was talking about. That's why I was trying to bring the discussion around to the idea that I have presented earlier, that law keeping theologies tend to break down when talking about the practical applications.

I don't think anything is hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life. However, how does that relate to law keeping theologies breaking down or not?

A person can have faith in God's word without knowing the letters of the Bible because God can speak outside of the Bible.

Regarding post 105, my understanding of your particular theology is that God's law is the ten commandments plus some other laws, which must be kept to the letter.

So to clarify, I don't think that you believe that we must keep some laws in order to be saved. But I thought you believed that not keeping some laws is sin.

Is that something you believe?

Post 105 talks a lot about salvation, but not about the practical application of some of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy after one is saved.

May the Lord make his face to shine upon you.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I think I am coming to understand your posts, but I don't understand how they relate to what I was talking about. That's why I was trying to bring the discussion around to the idea that I have presented earlier, that law keeping theologies tend to break down when talking about the practical applications.

I don't think anything is hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life. However, how does that relate to law keeping theologies breaking down or not?

A person can have faith in God's word without knowing the letters of the Bible because God can speak outside of the Bible.

Regarding post 105, my understanding of your particular theology is that God's law is the ten commandments plus some other laws, which must be kept to the letter.

So to clarify, I don't think that you believe that we must keep some laws in order to be saved. But I thought you believed that not keeping some laws is sin.

Is that something you believe?

Post 105 talks a lot about salvation, but not about the practical application of some of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy after one is saved.

May the Lord make his face to shine upon you.

It relates your earlier posts because your trying to make the argument about the letter. It not about the letter it is about faith in the letter that leads to the Spirit that we are to walk in *Galatians 5:16 that God uses to writes his laws of love in our heart so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *Galatians 5:16 so that we can enter into Gods new covenant promise to love and love obeys Gods' law from the heart (see 1 John 5:2-4; Romans 13:8-10) it does not break them *see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9.

Hope this helps
 
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It relates your earlier posts because your trying to make the argument about the letter. It not about the letter it is about faith in the letter that leads to the Spirit that we are to walk in *Galatians 5:16 that God uses to writes his laws of love in our heart so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *Galatians 5:16 so that we can enter into Gods new covenant promise to love and love obeys Gods' law from the heart (see 1 John 5:2-4; Romans 13:8-10) it does not break them *see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9.

Hope this helps
I had made this observation earlier. It was directed to someone else.
That's where the law-keeping theologies often break down in my experience, the practical applications.

A law keeping theology is one that promotes
... the idea that some of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy
(usually the ten commandments plus some others)
must be very carefully followed today,
followed to the letter.
To clarify, those laws must be followed to avoid sin, not for salvation.

If you believe that, in order to avoid sin, those laws must be followed in principle but not to the letter, then we agree. Then I'd say that you are not promoting a law keeping theology.
 
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Ligurian

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Sounds interesting!

What you're describing there doesn't really sound like a law keeping theology imo.

What I was talking about was the idea that some of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy
(usually the ten commandments plus some others)
must be very carefully followed today,
followed to the letter.

Thanks for the details!

These two passages book-end the Davidic Kingdom Law of the Sermon on the Mount: This is Law-Keeping.

Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon the rock: and the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house: and it fell not, for it was founded upon the rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man which built his house upon the sand: and the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house: and it fell, and great was the fall of it.


Deuteronomy 18:18-19 says that Jesus is the prophet like unto Moses... because both promote Law-Keeping.
 
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