Mark Quayle

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If two people " hear" the exact same message of the Gospel and one belives and the other does not, are you saying God only allowed His Holy Spirit to work in only one of those two people? Or could it be that one chose God's truth and the other rejected His truth? (All in the power within each person's free will. )
Your implication then, is that mere chance made the difference, or perhaps, that one person was inherently better than the other. Mere chance has no ability to cause anything —that is self-contradictory; and nobody has the ability to turn to God apart from God changing that person inside, as @Clare73 has so many times shown on this thread and others.

So yes. God does not work the same way in each person, leaving it all up to chance. He planned from the beginning precisely who would and who would not be shown mercy. Nobody earns grace.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Your implication then, is that mere chance made the difference, or perhaps, that one person was inherently better than the other. Mere chance has no ability to cause anything —that is self-contradictory; and nobody has the ability to turn to God apart from God changing that person inside, as @Clare73 has so many times shown on this thread and others.

So yes. God does not work the same way in each person, leaving it all up to chance. He planned from the beginning precisely who would and who would not be shown mercy. Nobody earns grace.
Thanks for clarifying your position and others.
Thanks for engaging!
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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You are conflating guilt, and debt.
Just for information: God created Adam totally perfect. Adam, through his disobedience to God, produced corrupted seed, causing a blight on all his descendants. Therefore everyone fathered since Adam were corrupted and in bondage to the law of sin and death. Jesus was the only person not to be fathered by a corrupted man, but instead "fathered" by the Holy Spirit. Therefore He was not in bondage to the law of sin and death, and was able to become our perfect sacrifice and substitute to pay the debt of sin to God.
 
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TedT

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So yes. God does not work the same way in each person, leaving it all up to chance. He planned from the beginning precisely who would and who would not be shown mercy. Nobody earns grace.
IF this was true then everyone would receive grace because HE wants no one to die but all to repent, even the wicked...
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Just for information: God created Adam totally perfect. Adam, through his disobedience to God, produced corrupted seed, causing a blight on all his descendants. Therefore everyone fathered since Adam were corrupted and in bondage to the law of sin and death. Jesus was the only person not to be fathered by a corrupted man, but instead "fathered" by the Holy Spirit. Therefore He was not in bondage to the law of sin and death, and was able to become our perfect sacrifice and substitute to pay the debt of sin to God.
To solidify my grasp of information that apparently you think I did not have: What does "totally perfect" mean, as describing Adam? And where does the Bible say he was created "totally perfect"?
 
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IF this was true then everyone would receive grace because HE wants no one to die but all to repent, even the wicked...
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Then you are left with (since you think he shows the same grace to every individual) the idea that some are merely better than others, or that mere chance has causative ability.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Something like that, yes.
No, but I was raised a Catholic. I did dabbled in some new age stuff before I became a born again believer in the early 80's through an AOG church. Why is my Catholic upbringing creeping out ? :)
 
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Just for information: God created Adam totally perfect. Adam, through his disobedience to God, produced corrupted seed, causing a blight on all his descendants.
IF this is important then GOD must have, had to have made everyone perfect because that is who HE is! Light cannot create dark!!!

And if Adam fell by disobedience then every sinner fell by a free will disobedience - no one was created corrupted!!!

Eccl.7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions"...ie, created perfect then self corrupted.

How can people keep believing He creates HIS bride corrupt as filthy rags when HE even created HIS worst enemy Satan perfect and with a free will???
 
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To solidify my grasp of information that apparently you think I did not have: What does "totally perfect" mean, as describing Adam? And where does the Bible say he was created "totally perfect"?
It wasn't my intention to be contentious with you. All I did was to explain why all are guilty before God before they even commit one sin. Seeing that you asked the question, you will read that when God finished the creation He described it as "very, very good" which is the same as being perfect in His eyes. Using plain common sense, it would be the same description for Adam - "very, very good."
 
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IF this is important then GOD must have, had to have made everyone perfect because that is who HE is! Light cannot create dark!!!

And if Adam fell by disobedience then every sinner fell by a free will disobedience - no one was created corrupted!!!

Eccl.7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions"...ie, created perfect then self corrupted.

How can people keep believing He creates HIS bride corrupt as filthy rags when HE even created HIS worst enemy Satan perfect and with a free will???
I just read the Bible and believe what it says.
 
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bling

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Which would be a contradiction of the whole sacrificial system, the gospel of faith and repentance for the forgiveness of sin, and would make Jesus' horrifying atoning work on the cross unnecessary.
The atonement process nor the whole sacrificial system, does not forgive sins, God forgives sins, which is part of Love/charity/mercy/grace. Jesus did not go to the cross, to help God out, so He could forgive sins, but to help those willing to accept His help to be justified in front of God.



Nope. . .our first step is to believe the word of God written, and not our own notions which contradict it.
Your making man’s first step some really heavy knowledge and a faith worthy of at least something, while I am talking about a very little almost obvious faith (it is much easier to believe in a benevolent Creator than to believe there is no god.)
 
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bling

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Just for information: God created Adam totally perfect. Adam, through his disobedience to God, produced corrupted seed, causing a blight on all his descendants. Therefore everyone fathered since Adam were corrupted and in bondage to the law of sin and death. Jesus was the only person not to be fathered by a corrupted man, but instead "fathered" by the Holy Spirit. Therefore He was not in bondage to the law of sin and death, and was able to become our perfect sacrifice and substitute to pay the debt of sin to God.
"Very good" does not mean perfect like Christ is perfect and has always been perfect. Christ is not a created being, but has always existed (Deity). God cannot, by definition, do somethings including God cannot make a being (another Christ) that has always existed.
Very Good can mean as good as a made being could be made, but Love cannot be made instinctive to a being, since Godly type Love is not instinctive (robotic).
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Here are 10 ( I'm sure there are more ) things Jesus said about His own death and its purpose.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15

4- Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again. John 2:19

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- substitution

8-Jesus tells His disciples the cup of suffering that awaited Him and that they too would also drink of this cup- Matthew 20

9-This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

10- Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing- Luke 23:34
 
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Clare73

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The atonement process nor the whole sacrificial system,
does not forgive sins, God forgives sins,
God forgives (cancels the debt of) sin only by faith because Jesus paid the debt.

God applies that forgiveness by faith, to all those who believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous.
which is part of Love/charity/mercy/grace. Jesus did not go to the cross, to help God out,
Jesus went to the cross to pay the sin debt, which payment is applied to those who believe in and trust on him and his atoning work.
so He could forgive sins, but to help those willing to accept His help to be justified in front of God.

Your making man’s first step some really heavy knowledge and a faith worthy of at least something,
Is it me. . .or NT apostolic teaching: "atonement through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:25)
while I am talking about a very little almost obvious faith
(it is much easier to believe in a benevolent Creator than to believe there is no god.)
Which will not save you from God's condemnation on your sin.
 
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bling

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God forgives (cancels the debt of) sin only by faith because Jesus paid the debt.
If God forgave the debt there is nothing left to pay, you either pay the debt off or the person owed can forgive the debt, it is either or and not both.
The faith is needed to humbly accept the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.

God applies that forgiveness by faith, to all those who believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous.
You are making God’s forgiveness contingent, when God, as the absolute best Lover, is forgiving everyone, but not everyone is humbly accepting that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction is not completed for everyone. Matt. 18:21-35.


Jesus went to the cross to pay the sin debt, which payment is applied to those who believe in and trust on him and his atoning work.
God forgave the debt that could not be paid. You might read Lev. 5 to see how scripture defines the sacrifice.


Is it me. . .or NT apostolic teaching: "atonement through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:25)
Which will not save you from God's condemnation on your sin.
From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom.

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul explain the difference:

Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

This is not saying sins prior to Christ crucifixion sins were “unforgiven”, since they were forgiven, but the forgiven sinner was not “punished” (disciplined) prior to the cross for his sins.

In Ro.3:25 Paul presents a bold huge contrast between the way sins are handled today (after the cross) and the way repentant forgiven sins where handled prior to the cross:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” since in Greek the same word also means “undisciplined”.

So, prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me, this I can experience today, while those prior to the cross could only experience an outward cleansing with animal blood.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize at the time, Christ was on the cross God in heaven, out of empathy/Love for Christ, would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through, will feel the death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent.

As Paul said: “We can be crucified with Christ”, which is not saying Christ was crucified instead of us and the only way we can be crucified with Christ is to have Christ crucified.

It was not possible for those prior to the cross to empathically experience being crucified with Christ.

Again, If sins prior to the cross are handled the same way as after the cross than there is no contrast as Paul presents it and they would both have been equally punished.



We are in a growing process, so God judges the hearts of people to determine who is saved and lost at the time they are taken.
 
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Mark Quayle

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It wasn't my intention to be contentious with you. All I did was to explain why all are guilty before God before they even commit one sin. Seeing that you asked the question, you will read that when God finished the creation He described it as "very, very good" which is the same as being perfect in His eyes. Using plain common sense, it would be the same description for Adam - "very, very good."
"Very, very good" is not the same as "perfect", but if you insist, what does it mean? Perfect for what?

My real question is, what are the implications you wish to make with this notion of perfection, concerning Adam?
 
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It wasn't my intention to be contentious with you. All I did was to explain why all are guilty before God before they even commit one sin. Seeing that you asked the question, you will read that when God finished the creation He described it as "very, very good" which is the same as being perfect in His eyes. Using plain common sense, it would be the same description for Adam - "very, very good."
By the way, sin is not just 'the first sin' a person commits, but the very mindset of the person. "Sins" are the outworking of the sin in the person. The unregenerated can ONLY sin. Everything he does that we might consider "right" is still corrupt in its intentions and purposes, even if he justifies himself and his conscience approves of his intentions. Compliance with the law of God is not the same thing as obedience, if the heart is not changed.
 
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