How does the Holy Spirit guide Christians?

Guojing · Apr 26, 2022

cornopean said:
It does not say that. You are correct.

I think this was a different dispensation. This was a time when, for reasons known only to God, the Spirit worked in a more direct way than He does now. I don't deny at all that God may give a person an impression of some kind that s/he ought to do something or refrain from doing something. But all these are fallible. We have to bring all such experiences to the word of God and assess them by it's light. Would you agree?

Nice, you are a mid acts dispensationalist?

Carl Emerson · Apr 26, 2022

cornopean said:
Well I certainly wouldn't want to say that God no longer speaks. I would say God speaks to us through His word, and we should be content with that. God certainly can speak to a person in more direct ways, but these are difficult to discern. In fact, it is prudent to distrust ourselves in this; many people who claim to be hearing God are just hearing themselves. That's a real possibility in our dispensation.

As individuals yes we need the discernment of the body and the accountability to the written scripture.

There is however a realm of service in which He directs us to be in strategic places at the right time to meet an appointed need.

This is a dimension of Christian faith largely lost that I am wanting to encourage.

It rests on learning to discern the voice of the Spirit and being found in obedience to His leading.

Sadly many have latched on to theologies that dismiss this walk of faith in this age.

You can read my testimony here...

Jesus's Ministry

SkyWriting · Apr 26, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
Does the ability to hear the Holy Spirit come with holiness, consecration, prayer, fasting, etc.?

It only comes after prayer. God never comes if you have not prayed.
All communication starts with prayer. Without prayer, no God.
God never presses himself on you without you asking.
God brings light into your life and never darkness.

Thanks. I needed to get that said.

TruthSeek3r · Apr 27, 2022

Guojing said:
It was implied in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13.

Of course, if you choose to interpret perfect as the 2nd coming of Christ, then you can still believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to us as audibly as he did during the period of Acts.

But this is where you realized, from 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us when Paul used the term "perfect" to describe us, he is not necessarily referring to receiving our redeemed bodies.

This answer may be of interest:

Question: Are there different types of perfection according to Paul? 1 Corinthians 13:10, Philippians 3:12, 2 Timothy 3:17 & Ephesians 4:13

Complete

If we grant that (in the Greek words used) "perfect" and "complete" carry the same meaning, Paul is simply referring to different entities becoming "complete".

(3 of the 4 passages contain forms of τέλειος, and 2 Tim uses the somewhat-but-not-quite synonymous ἄρτιος, both of which can be translated as "perfect" or "complete")

--

Knowledge

In 1 Cor 13 Paul speaks of knowledge becoming complete (see vss. 9,12).

Although the timing is not given, the reference to face-to-face suggests a future appearance before God (judgment day?), and the passage echoes the thoughts of the millennarian prophecy in Isaiah 11:9, see also Habakkuk 2:14)

--

Paul himself

Paul acknowledges in Philippians that he is a work in progress. God has called him to be something more and will help him get there, but the master craftsman isn't done working on Paul just yet.

Paul appears (here & elsewhere) to have in mind a prize beyond this life.

--

The work of the kingdom

Paul suggests that the scriptures equip people for the work God intends them to do--note that the verb ἐξαρτίζω is used in parallel with the adjective ἄρτιος, suggesting the man who avails himself of the scriptures will be fully equipped.

There is no need to suggest that this level of preparedness is beyond mortal reach.

--

The church

Paul speaks of the body of Christ attaining a state of perfection or completion, and that God has given tools to get them there, but they aren't there yet. This passage could be read as a response to the question "why do we need apostles & teachers?".

If we accept the NT symbolism that the church is the bride being prepared for the bridegroom (similar motifs are found in the OT), and the wedding is at or after a future coming of Christ, this hasn't happened yet either.

--

Conclusion

Various people/entities can become complete in different ways. Paul speaks of most of these processes of development as things that are still a work-in-progress.

Lest we try to water-down the weight of "perfection" too much though, consider the following thought experiment:

Let's say God sets some very high standard ("perfection", "completion") for where He wants His children to be. The exact height of the standard is irrelevant to the thought experiment, as long as we are aware that it's beyond anything we'll get to in a ~75 year mortal sojourn. Does this mean we'll never reach that standard?

Hardly. For those willing to fully embrace not my will but Thine be done: if Almighty God has all eternity to work with them, why in the world wouldn't He be able to get them to goal He has set?

Guojing · Apr 27, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
This answer may be of interest:

Question: Are there different types of perfection according to Paul? 1 Corinthians 13:10, Philippians 3:12, 2 Timothy 3:17 & Ephesians 4:13

Complete

If we grant that (in the Greek words used) "perfect" and "complete" carry the same meaning, Paul is simply referring to different entities becoming "complete".

(3 of the 4 passages contain forms of τέλειος, and 2 Tim uses the somewhat-but-not-quite synonymous ἄρτιος, both of which can be translated as "perfect" or "complete")

--

Knowledge

In 1 Cor 13 Paul speaks of knowledge becoming complete (see vss. 9,12).

Although the timing is not given, the reference to face-to-face suggests a future appearance before God (judgment day?), and the passage echoes the thoughts of the millennarian prophecy in Isaiah 11:9, see also Habakkuk 2:14)

--

Paul himself

Paul acknowledges in Philippians that he is a work in progress. God has called him to be something more and will help him get there, but the master craftsman isn't done working on Paul just yet.

Paul appears (here & elsewhere) to have in mind a prize beyond this life.

--

The work of the kingdom

Paul suggests that the scriptures equip people for the work God intends them to do--note that the verb ἐξαρτίζω is used in parallel with the adjective ἄρτιος, suggesting the man who avails himself of the scriptures will be fully equipped.

There is no need to suggest that this level of preparedness is beyond mortal reach.

--

The church

Paul speaks of the body of Christ attaining a state of perfection or completion, and that God has given tools to get them there, but they aren't there yet. This passage could be read as a response to the question "why do we need apostles & teachers?".

If we accept the NT symbolism that the church is the bride being prepared for the bridegroom (similar motifs are found in the OT), and the wedding is at or after a future coming of Christ, this hasn't happened yet either.

--

Conclusion

Various people/entities can become complete in different ways. Paul speaks of most of these processes of development as things that are still a work-in-progress.

Lest we try to water-down the weight of "perfection" too much though, consider the following thought experiment:

Let's say God sets some very high standard ("perfection", "completion") for where He wants His children to be. The exact height of the standard is irrelevant to the thought experiment, as long as we are aware that it's beyond anything we'll get to in a ~75 year mortal sojourn. Does this mean we'll never reach that standard?

Hardly. For those willing to fully embrace not my will but Thine be done: if Almighty God has all eternity to work with them, why in the world wouldn't He be able to get them to goal He has set?

As I said, if you want to interpret the perfect in 1 Cor 13 as the 2nd coming of Christ, no one can stop you from doing so. =)

disciple Clint · Apr 27, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
How are Christians led by the Holy Spirit?
How does the Holy Spirit communicate God's will to Christians?
What mechanisms does the Holy Spirit employ to this end?

Are these controversial questions? Do answers vary per denomination?

_______________________________________

Appendix - NT passages about the lead of the Holy Spirit

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (Romans 8:14 ESV)

And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness. (Luke 4:1 ESV)

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:27 ESV)

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (John 16:13 ESV)

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (John 14:26 ESV)

Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” (Acts 8:29 ESV)

While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.” (Acts 10:19-20 ESV)

The Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man’s house. (Acts 11:12 ESV)

While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” (Acts 13:2 ESV)

6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. 8 So, passing by Mysia, they went down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 And when Paul had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them. (Acts 16:6-10 ESV)

9 He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied. 10 While we were staying for many days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘This is how the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” (Acts 21:9-11 ESV)

When I find myself thinking in ways that I would not normally think and doing things in a way that I would not done in the past, I know the Holy Spirit is at work.

cornopean · Apr 27, 2022

Guojing said:
Nice, you are a mid acts dispensationalist?

Well these labels are prone to misunderstanding, but I don't consider myself any kind of a dispensationalist.

cornopean · Apr 27, 2022

disciple Clint said:
When I find myself thinking in ways that I would not normally think and doing things in a way that I would not done in the past, I know the Holy Spirit is at work.

But you are fallible in this...right? You have to always bring these experiences back to the word of God and assess them there, no? Some times you may think you're hearing the word of God but you are really hearing your own voice. That's a possibility, right?

cornopean · Apr 27, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
As individuals yes we need the discernment of the body and the accountability to the written scripture.

There is however a realm of service in which He directs us to be in strategic places at the right time to meet an appointed need.

This is a dimension of Christian faith largely lost that I am wanting to encourage.

It rests on learning to discern the voice of the Spirit and being found in obedience to His leading.

Sadly many have latched on to theologies that dismiss this walk of faith in this age.

I think this is the right balance, brother. Open to the Spirit's leading but always returning to the written word of God. Thanks for this.

Guojing · Apr 27, 2022

cornopean said:
Well these labels are prone to misunderstanding, but I don't consider myself any kind of a dispensationalist.

I find it interesting that you used the phrase "different dispensations" and yet rather not call yourself a dispensationalist.

You believe that God relates to man differently under different dispensation correct? That is the central feature of dispensationalists. =)

cornopean · Apr 27, 2022

Guojing said:
I find it interesting that you used the phrase "different dispensations" and yet rather not call yourself a dispensationalist.

You believe that God relates to man differently under different dispensation correct? That is the central feature of dispensationalists. =)

Oh yes....I certainly believe in dispensations. My understanding is, however, that the dispensations are all growing out from each other as a tree might grow from an acorn. I do not see dispensations as being completely distinct from each other. In my tradition, they use the word "organic" i.e. the dispensations are the gradual and incremental opening of God's original covenant which He made in eternity past.

Blade · Apr 27, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
When the Holy Spirit speaks to your spirit it is beyond the 5 senses.

Amen.. I was going to say.. when we listen. Read pray always.. walking in the spirit (that one people get lost on). As we read pray then take the time to listen. To always speak to Him. We know in ACTS He talks speaks what He hears. I think we grieve Him by what we do think say. Grieve "cause great distress to (someone)." I never take time to understand what grieve really means. To think I cause great distress.. hurts.

bling · Apr 27, 2022

Get yourself into a situation, because you are a Christian, which there is no escape and have the Spirit lead you out and then you will know you were led by the Spirit

TruthSeek3r · Apr 27, 2022

bling said:
Get yourself into a situation, because you are a Christian, which there is no escape and have the Spirit lead you out and then you will know you were led by the Spirit

Wouldn't that be putting God to the test?

Matthew 4:5-7 (ESV)

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’

and

“‘On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”

7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Jesus is YHWH · Apr 27, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
Does the ability to hear the Holy Spirit come with holiness, consecration, prayer, fasting, etc.?

No John 16:8- And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

disciple Clint · Apr 28, 2022

cornopean said:
But you are fallible in this...right? You have to always bring these experiences back to the word of God and assess them there, no? Some times you may think you're hearing the word of God but you are really hearing your own voice. That's a possibility, right?

Those are possibilities but I can tell you for certain that I recall twice in my life that God told me about things that would happen, I had no expectation that those things would happen before He told me, both times I knew immediately that it was God and that it would indeed happen. There is an absolute peace and certainty when God speaks to you.

Johann@P · Apr 28, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
How does one know? What does it feel like?

Excellent question
How does one know?
Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Same for the above verse..how do we KNOW we are sealed?
Here's another one...

Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

How in the world is the Spirit bearing "witness? with our spirit?

I would suggest to take these scriptures and dig a little deeper in the Koine Greek and Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries for example..

V-PIA-3S (BSB Morphology)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Lemma: συμμαρτυρέω
Word: testifies with
Greek: συμμαρτυρεῖ
Transliteration: symmartyrei
G4828 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G4828 συμμαρτυρέω summartureo (sïm-mar-tï-re'-ō) v.
to testify jointly, i.e. corroborate by (concurrent) evidence.

Is this true in our lives?

Blessings
J.

Johann@P · Apr 28, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
No John 16:8- And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

How is the Holy Spirit "convicting?
J.

Johann@P · Apr 28, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
Then how do we explain the myriads of different interpretations of the Bible? Does God speak clearly through the Bible to Reformed Calvinists only?

Good question

All my life I have studied the scriptures and still seeking after truth, as you are

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. - - Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you— unless you actually fail the test?

Notice this "examining"...

V-PMA-2P (BSB Morphology)
Verb - Present Imperative Active - 2nd Person Plural

An Imperative, on a daily basis for the rest of our lives...

Lemma: πειράζω
Word: Examine
Greek: πειράζετε
Transliteration: peirazete
G3985 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G3985 πειράζω peirazo (pei-ra'-zō) v.
to test (objectively), i.e. endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline.

Why the need for examining?

Adj-NMP (BSB Morphology)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Plural
Lemma: ἀδόκιμος
Word: fail the test?
Greek: ἀδόκιμοί
Transliteration: adokimoi
G96 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G96 ἀδόκιμος adokimos (a-d̮o'-kiy-mos) adj.
1. unacceptable, i.e. rejected.
2. (by implication) worthless.

1) "Examine yourselves," (heautous periazete) "Test or examine yourselves," Self-examination, in the light of or in harmony with the Word of God, is the best examination possible, 1Co_11:28; Gal_6:3-4.

2) "Whether ye be in the faith," (ei este en te pistei) "whether (or not) you all are in the faith," in harmony with the system of faith of Christ, 1Co_16:13; Jud_1:3; 2Ti_4:7; in accord with the body of Christian and church truth, rightly viewed and followed, 2Ti_2:15.

3) "Prove your own selves," (heautous dokimazete) "prove or test yourselves," as to what you believe and what you practice, 1Co_11:1-2; Rom_8:19; Gal_4:19; Mat_5:15-16; Mat_7:17; Mat_7:20; 1Jn_2:15-17; Joh_13:34-35. "Your being in the faith is evidence that I am," Paul affirms.

4) "Know ye not your own selves," (e ouk epiginoskete heautous) "or do you not know your own selves," recognize or realize, 1Jn_3:24; Gal_2:20; Joh_15:4-5; Joh_15:23; Php_3:10-14.

5) "How that Jesus Christ is in you," (hoti lesous Christos en humin) "that Jesus Christ exists (resides in you all)," as individuals, and as a church, 1Co_4:15; Col_1:27; Joh_17:23-24.

6) "Except ye be reprobates?" (ei meti adokimoi este) "If you are not counterfeits," or reprobates, outcasts, have not been rejected of the Lord for blessings, Rev_2:5; had your candlestick removed, as a church, Rev_3:16; Rev_3:19.
Garner-Howes

Blessings
J.

com7fy8 · Apr 28, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
How are Christians led by the Holy Spirit?

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

The Holy Spirit shares God's own love with us "in our hearts". This is very personal, indeed, with our Father's own personal communication at every moment.

In love with another person, we share in words . . . but also deeper than words.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

In God's love we grow in "discernment" > how love has us seeing things, with ideas but also and attitudes and "senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (in Hebrews 5:14)

In God's love we can sense in sharing with Him in us. God in us has us doing this >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

God in us "works" so we can sense and will and do what He pleases at every moment. Yes, God speaks to us, by His word, plus God "works" all He means, which can be what words cannot tell.

For example, in us "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7) We need for God to do this in us, so we can know what this means. God doing this communicates what no amount of words, even inspired, alone can tell us.

So, we read and feed on God's word, and we do well to submit to Him so He is doing with us all He knows He means

How does the Holy Spirit guide Christians?

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