Mark Quayle

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I believe that post of Wendy's was originally directed to me. My answer defended the role of man's will in his salvation, according to God's sovereign discretion. In ancient church teachings man can’t possibly turn himself to God; he cannot find God, but he can still refuse to be found, refuse to come to Him when He calls or open the door when He knocks. Man can also shut the door later, refusing to remain in Him, turning back away; man can say “no” to God. If God’s will is always done, why do we pray that it be done on earth as it is in heaven? Or why is God patiently waiting for us to come to Him, not wanting any to perish as per 2 Pet 3:9 if not for the possibility of our not being saved? What’s the hold-up, other than man's will?

And if salvation is universal as the OP maintains, then for what possible reason would God submit humans to centuries of pain, evil, victimization, sin? Why not just put everyone in heaven if that’s the idea anyway, without regard to man’s will? And why would I even care if I blasphemed, if salvation is universal?? In truth, nothing will separate us from the love of God except for our own lack of love in return, our own failure to respond in faith, hope, and love. Man’s the wildcard, always has been; that’s what allowed Adam to fall to begin with: by the abuse of the good gift of his freedom.

And that's why we need revelation and grace, revelation in order to know God and His will, and then grace in order to be capable of believing in and obeying it, obeying Him.

Not to defend the one who wrote you, as I have no truck with Universalism, but God can do as he sees fit by whatever means he pleases, and our opinion has no merit if it conflicts with what he does. The fact it doesn't make sense to us "matters precisely nothing" as I think one of CS Lewis' friends put it.

Congratulations on being the first I remember hearing, to bring up the question of why should God need to patiently wait, not wanting any to perish as per 2 Pet 3:9, if he is the one who brings them, or as Reformed teaching puts it, if they can't come until they are first regenerated by the Spirit of God. The question of why God should need to wait is a good one, and works even if the "any" referred to there, are necessarily the elect.

But the question only works if the book is written to only elect. It is written to both elect, and to supposedly elect, to stimulate them to wholesome thinking (3:1). Peter, Paul, etc, and even Christ, speak to the supposedly-elect as though they were elect, and to the elect as if they must affirm their election by their willing choice (and indeed they must, as we say in my family, "We do so, because it is so." The weeds and the crop grow together.)

Anyway, the whole direction of the chapter concerns the whole of the church. God is not going to close the case until all the elect, all that belong to Christ, are saved. Many of them had not even been born yet, and, I would guess, many still have not yet been born even today. The notion of them perishing, is rhetorical, as would be supposed, since they have not so far been regenerated, and some not even born.

Notice too, that the theme of salvation isn't specifically mentioned in the immediate context. What IS mentioned is repentance, which isn't the same thing as salvation, nor as regeneration, but a result of regeneration. One's choice to repent happens in God's time, and if it doesn't happen, regeneration has not happened. Them perishing, even if alive in Peter's time, is rhetorical, since they would perish, if they don't repent.

I understand that answer will be unsatisfactory to you, though not because of reasoning and scripture alone, but because of false presuppositions, to include the mindset of the human POV of free will. I find it satisfying, but it would be better if I could get into the larger theme of "God in us". For now, try to let the idea of "Apart from me, you can do nothing" suffice in place of a thorough treatment of that larger theme.
 
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fhansen

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Not to defend the one who wrote you, as I have no truck with Universalism, but God can do as he sees fit by whatever means he pleases, and our opinion has no merit if it conflicts with what he does. The fact it doesn't make sense to us "matters precisely nothing" as I think one of CS Lewis' friends put it.
Well...yes!...and that argument can be used to defend virtually any position, as you've sort of done so here with the OP's position. But either way God doesn't ask us to turn off our minds; we couldn't even understand the gospel and come to Him to begin with without being rational creatures. And we all use them in this manner as we ponder revelation and our experiences of this life, regardless of theology.
But the question only works if the book is written to only elect.
The question works for all men, because the reason the elect must confirm their calling is the same as why we must work out our salvation: precisely because the will is involved and we cannot know with 100% certainty if we're even numbered among the elect, if our names are written in the Book of Life IOW. We can't predict our own perseverance, to put it another way. Like I said, man is the wildcard, not God.

Either way, while the elect are the elect, we put the cart ahead of the horse in believing that we're necessarily one of them rather than just having a level of assurance balanced by a healthy understanding of our weaknesses, limitations, and tendency to sin. We must live out our lives, now with the help of grace, doing the best we can with the knowledge and gifts given-and then let Him do the judging.
It is written to both elect, and to supposedly elect, to stimulate them to wholesome thinking (3:1). Peter, Paul, etc, and even Christ, speak to the supposedly-elect as though they were elect, and to the elect as if they must affirm their election by their willing choice (and indeed they must, as we say in my family, "We do so, because it is so." The weeds and the crop grow together.)
And this, IMO, is an example of what you accuse me of: using the mind to contrive a postion that suits one's theology-ending up sort of reading between the lines in this case.
Anyway, the whole direction of the chapter concerns the whole of the church. God is not going to close the case until all the elect, all that belong to Christ, are saved. Many of them had not even been born yet, and, I would guess, many still have not yet been born even today. The notion of them perishing, is rhetorical, as would be supposed, since they have not so far been regenerated, and some not even born.
And what's lacking here, IMO, is a sound understanding of the love of God for all humankind.
Notice too, that the theme of salvation isn't specifically mentioned in the immediate context. What IS mentioned is repentance, which isn't the same thing as salvation, nor as regeneration, but a result of regeneration. One's choice to repent happens in God's time, and if it doesn't happen, regeneration has not happened. Them perishing, even if alive in Peter's time, is rhetorical, since they would perish, if they don't repent.
God wants none to perish-that's His nature. The presuppostions seem to fall more on your side as I see it. And the bible, to be sure, can often be employed to support conflicting viewpoints, here and on other matters of the faith.
 
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JulieB67

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If I remember correctly, he was responding to my post, and I don't believe in Universalism; I don't believe he redeems anyone from the LOF.

I know you don't. Sorry, if you misunderstood. I just liked his post and wanted to respond.

I responded to his post on the "God can Save the world" thread and then of course it disappeared.

I'll bow out, sorry.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Or why is God patiently waiting for us to come to Him, not wanting any to perish as per 2 Pet 3:9 if not for the possibility of our not being saved? What’s the hold-up, other than man's will?

Exactly. Why is he so long suffering if all it takes is a dip in the LOF to redeem someone? Doesn't make sense to me.



So true!

Short answer: Because a good many of the elect hadn't even been born yet.

I know you don't. Sorry, if you misunderstood. I just liked his post and wanted to respond.

I responded to his post on the "God can Save the world" thread and then of course it disappeared.

I'll bow out, sorry.
I don't mind you responding. Sorry for coming across as snippy or objecting. Didn't mean to.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The only person who every had 2 wills is the Lord Jesus. But even in his case, the human will was so totally submitted to the Divine. Otherwise, there is no such a thing as one person with 2 wills. Even in multiple personality syndrome, my understanding is that the different personalities serve a single will.

One could say the notion of 2 wills is only a reference to the fact that the word, "will" is used two different ways in Scripture. It's not that God has two different goals.

So what is the real / ultimate will of God regarding salvation?
That every one of the elect be with him in Heaven (and they will be).
 
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fhansen

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Short answer: Because a good many of the elect hadn't even been born yet.
Personsally in that case I woulda thought Peter might say something like,
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but waiting for all the elect to be born", rather then, "but everyone to come to repentance."

Way less awkward. JMO
 
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Clare73

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I think the terms that you might be looking for is the permissive will of God and the prescriptive will of God. There is no competition between satan and God, God created satan and God is all powerful.
However, the bible knows nothing of a "permissive" will of God (Exodus 4:21; Exodus 9:16; 1 Samuel 18:10; 2 Samuel 24:1, 2 Samuel 24:10; 1 Kings 22:23; Job 12:16; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 4:25).

The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey, but disobeys, and
the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Deuteronomy 29:29),
and which is always done (Isaiah 46:10-11).

The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Exodus 4:11b, Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:7; 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 1 Kings 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 53:10, 54:16; Jeremiah 44:27-28; Lamentations 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 10:29; John 9:2-3; Revelation 17:17).

The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Isaiah 53:10; Daniel 11:36; Acts 2:23, 3:18, 4:28, 13:48),
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

The Bible knows nothing of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2 Chronicles 20:6; Job 9:12, Job 42:2; Isaiah 14:27; Daniel 4:35),
or of a God whose plans are conditioned or determined by (Exodus 9:16, Acts 4:28),
or who sustains loss because of (John 6:37; Acts 13:48) the actions of men.

The Bible knows only a God who ordains or decrees (not permits) everything (Lamentations 3:37),
down to the last detail (Psalms 50:11, Psalms 139:16, Psalms 147:4; Matthew 10:30).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Personsally in that case I woulda thought Peter might say something like,
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but waiting for all the elect to be born", rather then, "but everyone to come to repentance."

Way less awkward. JMO
Why? The elect are predestined for mercy. That doesn't mean they needn't repent. If they don't repent, they are not elect.
 
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Mark Quayle

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However, the bible knows nothing of a "permissive" will of God (Exodus 4:21; Exodus 9:16; 1 Samuel 18:10; 2 Samuel 24:1, 2 Samuel 24:10; 1 Kings 22:23; Job 12:16; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 4:25).

The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey, but disobeys, and
the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Deuteronomy 29:29),
and which is always done (Isaiah 46:10-11).

The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Exodus 4:11b, Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:7; 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 1 Kings 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 53:10, 54:16; Jeremiah 44:27-28; Lamentations 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 10:29; John 9:2-3; Revelation 17:17).

The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Isaiah 53:10; Daniel 11:36; Acts 2:23, 3:18, 4:28, 13:48),
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

The Bible knows nothing of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2 Chronicles 20:6; Job 9:12, Job 42:2; Isaiah 14:27; Daniel 4:35),
or of a God whose plans are conditioned or determined by (Exodus 9:16, Acts 4:28),
or who sustains loss because of (John 6:37; Acts 13:48) the actions of men.

The Bible knows only a God who ordains or decrees (not permits) everything (Lamentations 3:37),
down to the last detail (Psalms 50:11, Psalms 139:16, Psalms 137:4, Matthew 10:30).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, 30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2;23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.
No! I love it!
 
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fhansen

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Why? The elect are predestined for mercy. That doesn't mean they needn't repent. If they don't repent, they are not elect.
Well, at least that was a response -of sorts. :) But, um, yes, sort of hard for the unborn to repent alright. But nope, still awkward.
 
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Fervent

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It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, 30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2;23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.
This seems entirely self defeating, since if that is the case then it is God causing men to present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do. It renders God's word void by rendering God faithless, regardless of your interpretation of Romans.

Such fatalism is a complete dishonor to God since it claims He is at once a monster and a fool, as well as a faithless liar.
 
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disciple Clint

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However, the bible knows nothing of a "permissive" will of God (Exodus 4:21; Exodus 9:16; 1 Samuel 18:10; 2 Samuel 24:1, 2 Samuel 24:10; 1 Kings 22:23; Job 12:16; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 4:25).

The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey, but disobeys, and
the secret will of God, which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Deuteronomy 29:29),
and which is always done (Isaiah 46:10-11).

The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Exodus 4:11b, Deuteronomy 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:7; 1 Kings 11:14, 23, 1 Kings 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 53:10, 54:16; Jeremiah 44:27-28; Lamentations 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zechariah 11:16; Matthew 10:29; John 9:2-3; Revelation 17:17).

The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Isaiah 53:10; Daniel 11:36; Acts 2:23, 3:18, 4:28, 13:48),
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:4; Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

The Bible knows nothing of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2 Chronicles 20:6; Job 9:12, Job 42:2; Isaiah 14:27; Daniel 4:35),
or of a God whose plans are conditioned or determined by (Exodus 9:16, Acts 4:28),
or who sustains loss because of (John 6:37; Acts 13:48) the actions of men.

The Bible knows only a God who ordains or decrees (not permits) everything (Lamentations 3:37),
down to the last detail (Psalms 50:11, Psalms 139:16, Psalms 137:4, Matthew 10:30).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, 30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Kings 22:23; 1 Chronicles 5:26; Ezra 1:1, Ezra 1:5; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 14:9; Daniel 1:9, 11:36; John 6:37; Acts 2;23, 4:28, 13:48; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17.

For the answer to man's objection to this, see Romans 9:19-21.
The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels
Well then God is responsible for all sin by virtue of your own assertions that nothing happens that is not within the will of God. Think that over.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Well, at least that was a response -of sorts. :) But, um, yes, sort of hard for the unborn to repent alright. But nope, still awkward.
I began a long response that I realized that with your presuppositions, would also be unsatisfactory to you, and I lost it somehow, (sadly, too, because it was a lot of work, lol). The thought comes to me as it often does with debating, that if I was of your mind I could probably make your point better than you do, and similarly, you could make my point.
 
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fhansen

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I began a long response that I realized that with your presuppositions, would also be unsatisfactory to you, and I lost it somehow, (sadly, too, because it was a lot of work, lol). The thought comes to me as it often does with debating, that if I was of your mind I could probably make your point better than you do, and similarly, you could make my point.
I've done that as well-hate it LOL. And I'm sure that your's would've totally convinced me of your point but I'll be left to wallow in ingorance and darkness now instead. You may have to answer to God for this one :rolleyes:.

But I'll just say this. Everything in me, and everything I've learned of God up to this point, miniscule as it might be, tells me that life is a test, a serious one, in which we're to do the best we can with whatever we've been given including our backgrounds, experiences, mental capabilities, maturity, time, knowledge, grace, et al. And "the best we can" involves our turning to God and His love and away from the sin that tends to destroy our world and ourselves, the sin that is a scourge, something not "meant to be", the sin that is part and parcel of our being separated from God and a wound which begins to heal as we're united with Him, a union or relationship that man is absolutely made for and is lost, sick, dead without. And this involves choice, on our part, again to the greatest extent that we're capable of making that choice, and not without the help of grace, but not at all by virtue of God simply totally changing us to now be oriented differently. It's a process, a journey that we're set on as we turn to Him in faith, and one we may yet fail at.

I also believe that He truly loves all humakind, the work of His hands, and loves us unconditionally, and wants all to be saved, and judges all on, again, whatever we did with whatever we had in our possession with which to do it. He lets us finally set any conditions, of whether or not we'll finally live with Him eternally, of whether or not we'll finally and fully embrace and love Him as we should, as justice, itself, demands, or not. Some people think that the gospel is the freedom now to be free of that obligation-the obligation to do anything more than believe, but nothing could be further from the truth. We must love-and so live like it. Faith is the doorway to that love as it's the doorway to its Source.

Anyway, FWIW I appreciate some teachings I'm familiar with on this:

356
Of all visible creatures only man is "able to know and love his creator".219 He is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake",220 and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:
"What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good." (St Catherine).

397
Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"makes man's life a battle:
"The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity."


HUMAN FREEDOM

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
"Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts."27

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28


When we deny that freedom we deny the gospel IMO, we deny Genesis to Revelation for that matter, the reason for God's whole history of revelation to man to begin with. We must choose good over evil, God over no God; that's what we're here to learn to do.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I've done that as well-hate it LOL. And I'm sure that your's would've totally convinced me of your point but I'll be left to wallow in ingorance and darkness now instead. You may have to answer to God for this one :rolleyes:.
Haha!

But I'll just say this. Everything in me, and everything I've learned of God up to this point, miniscule as it might be, tells me that life is a test, a serious one, in which we're to do the best we can with whatever we've been given including our backgrounds, experiences, mental capabilities, maturity, time, knowledge, grace, et al. And "the best we can" involves our turning to God and His love and away from the sin that tends to destroy our world and ourselves, the sin that is a scourge, something not "meant to be", the sin that is part and parcel of our being separated from God and a wound which begins to heal as we're united with Him, a relationship that man is absolutely made for and is lost, sick, dead without. And this involves choice, on our part, again to the greatest extent that we're capable of making the choice, and not without the help of grace, but not at all by virtue of God simply totally changing us to now be oriented differently. It's a process, a journey that we're set on as we turn to Him in faith, and one we may yet fail at.

I can agree with the words of this paragraph, so far as the words (not quite the implications you may have meant by them) go; in fact there are words you use there that absolutely imply, to my mind, things that contradict the notion of freewill, as some mean by that term. Notice, for example, you even emphasize the word, 'made', in, "a relationship that man is absolutely made for...". The use there implies that we are indeed caused to be, and that, for a certain purpose. Hello, predestination! But, don't respond to this without remembering that Calvinists and the Reformed also believe we have real choice.

I also believe that He truly loves all humakind, the work of His hands, and loves us unconditionally, and wants all to be saved, and judges all on, again, whatever we did with whatever we had in our possession with which to do it. He lets us finally set any conditions, of whether or not we'll finally live with Him eternally, of whetheror not we'll finally embrace and love Him as we should, as justice, itself, demands, or not. Some people think that the gospel is the freedom now to be free of that obligation-the obligation to do anything more than believe, but nothing could be further from the truth. We must love-and so live like it. Faith is the doorway to that love as it's the doorway to its Source.

Notice that you say that all humankind is the work of God's hands. 'Unconditional love' is true enough, if all you mean by it is that he does love what he has done. It probably goes quite a lot further than even you realize, but it does not at all mean he loves all humans equally, or that he doesn't have a special, or particular, love for those upon whom he says he chose to have mercy. Say what you wish about the freewill of those who ultimately reject him, they are still in this life slaves to sin; and say what you wish about the freewill of those who will be with him eternally, they indeed WILL be saved.

And, btw, I don't know anyone personally who believes that the redeemed are free to sin all they want. God is not mocked. Such a person is not redeemed.

356 Of all visible creatures only man is "able to know and love his creator".219 He is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake",220 and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God's own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:
What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good. (St Catherine).
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"makes man's life a battle:
The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.


HUMAN FREEDOM

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

The RCatholic catechism is full of human 'wisdom' and runs light on Scripture. No doubt much of it is drawn on a Catholic view of Scripture, but it sounds several steps removed. And that is consistent with Catholic theology. What you posted here is little more than philosophy.

When we deny that freedom we deny the gospel IMO, we deny Genesis to Revelation for that matter, the reason for God's whole history of revelation to man to begin with. We must choose good over evil, God over no God; that's what we're here to learn to do.

So, by extension, since 'here' leads to 'there', Heaven is all about choice?
 
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fhansen

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I can agree with the words of this paragraph, so far as the words (not quite the implications you may have meant by them) go; in fact there are words you use there that absolutely imply, to my mind, things that contradict the notion of freewill, as some mean by that term. Notice, for example, you even emphasize the word, 'made', in, "a relationship that man is absolutely made for...". The use there implies that we are indeed caused to be, and that, for a certain purpose. Hello, predestination! But, don't respond to this without remembering that Calvinists and the Reformed also believe we have real choice.
And yet the bible bascially screams that man does not necessarily do what he's made to do.
 
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Clare73

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Well then God is responsible for all sin by virtue of your own assertions that nothing happens that is not within the will of God. Think that over.
See Romans 9:16-23. Think that over.

God holds man responsible for Adam's sin (Romans 5:18).
That alone condemns you (John 3:18--"already," John 3:36--"remains;"
Ephesians 2:3--"by nature").
 
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fhansen

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And, btw, I don't know anyone personally who believes that the redeemed are free to sin all they want. God is not mocked. Such a person is not redeemed.
I didn't say that, but what I stated does mean that the doctrine of Sola Fide has opened the door to confusion on this point at to whether or not man is still obligated to be righteous. Faith does not stand in for or replace righteousness nor does it in any way release us from the obligation to be righteous and live accordingly.
 
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fhansen

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The RCatholic catechism is full of human 'wisdom' and runs light on Scripture. No doubt much of it is drawn on a Catholic view of Scripture, but it sounds several steps removed. And that is consistent with Catholic theology. What you posted here is little more than philosophy.
What you posted here is little more than speculation or guess-work. The RC view is essentially consistent with the historic view of the church east and west along with the ECFs-and Scripture taken in its fullest context. The church cites Scripture constantly in her teachings along with quotes at times from those who've grown in wisdom as they've been impacted by the faith recorded in it-and so have something worth hearing. You've been influenced by a novel gospel that was one variation among many that resulted when men basically ignored historic teachings and relied on private interpretations of Scripture.
 
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