"Escapist eschatology" to get out of environmental obligations now

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sparow

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Ah, so now we've got to cut 1 and 2 Peter out of the New Testament as well?
Well, let's see how far we can take this logic.
What about the fact that Jesus didn't actually write down his own words?
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all have different accounts and describe the same events a bit differently.
They use their own personalities and language styles and memories to make a point.
How do we know how much they got wrong? There are differences.
Indeed, as the whole bible was written by fallible human beings, why not just chuck out the whole thing? Because anything you can say against Peter or Paul you may as well say against them all. We are all human and fallible. Just chuck out the whole thing hey? Better to be safe than read anything written by 'humans' at all!

Do you remember how this got started. Peter's credentials are certified, Paul's are not. I am not aware of anyone depending on Peter for their salvation or even calling Peter teacher, yet almost every Christian calls Paul teacher (pushing Jesus aside), they even say Paul delivered the New covenant, Jesus was unable to change the Law, Paul appears to be greater in that he is credited with doing so. Salvation of course is not about being right, it about keeping the commandments and about overcoming and not making excuses.
 
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eclipsenow

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Do you remember how this got started. Peter's credentials are certified, Paul's are not. I am not aware of anyone depending on Peter for their salvation or even calling Peter teacher, yet almost every Christian calls Paul teacher (pushing Jesus aside)

That's your assumption which I do not agree with in the first place.
You've yet to prove your assumption prove Jesus and Paul are in conflict!

they even say Paul delivered the New covenant,
No we don't - Jesus did that with his death and resurrection.
Paul just unpacks and explains it some more.

Jesus was unable to change the Law,
No, but he fulfilled it. Or is he not the vine? (That replaces Israel's vineyards = their celebration of God's good generosity.)
Is he not the true bread? (What the miracle of the manna in the desert pointed to.)
Is he not the way, truth and life?
Is he not the true sacrifice?
Is he not the Lord of the Sabbath?

Paul appears to be greater in that he is credited with doing so.
Not without Jesus death and resurrection he doesn't.
He just unpacks how Jesus actions fulfil the OT law.


Salvation of course is not about being right,
Not on most of the issues we discuss here, but on the gospel itself it really is important to get it right.

..about keeping the commandments and about overcoming and not making excuses.
Which Jesus explained we cannot do.
Which only faith in Jesus can do.
Which only trusting in Jesus death can do.
Which is the basic Christian gospel.
Which is John 3:16.
Which you seem to be defying right now because something in your eschatology can't handle Paul?

Wow - I did not expect this kind of thing to flow freely in a Christian sub-forum. Maybe out in the non-Christian areas of these forums - but here?
 
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jgr

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That's your assumption which I do not agree with in the first place.
You've yet to prove your assumption prove Jesus and Paul are in conflict!


No we don't - Jesus did that with his death and resurrection.
Paul just unpacks and explains it some more.


No, but he fulfilled it. Or is he not the vine? (That replaces Israel's vineyards = their celebration of God's good generosity.)
Is he not the true bread? (What the miracle of the manna in the desert pointed to.)
Is he not the way, truth and life?
Is he not the true sacrifice?
Is he not the Lord of the Sabbath?


Not without Jesus death and resurrection he doesn't.
He just unpacks how Jesus actions fulfil the OT law.



Not on most of the issues we discuss here, but on the gospel itself it really is important to get it right.


Which Jesus explained we cannot do.
Which only faith in Jesus can do.
Which only trusting in Jesus death can do.
Which is the basic Christian gospel.
Which is John 3:16.
Which you seem to be defying right now because something in your eschatology can't handle Paul?

Wow - I did not expect this kind of thing to flow freely in a Christian sub-forum. Maybe out in the non-Christian areas of these forums - but here?

Amen.


We can thank Darby/Scofield dispensational futurism for the doctrinal chaos that prevails in so much of the Church.

It's high time for another Reformation.
 
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jgr

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Do you remember how this got started. Peter's credentials are certified, Paul's are not. I am not aware of anyone depending on Peter for their salvation or even calling Peter teacher, yet almost every Christian calls Paul teacher (pushing Jesus aside), they even say Paul delivered the New covenant, Jesus was unable to change the Law, Paul appears to be greater in that he is credited with doing so. Salvation of course is not about being right, it about keeping the commandments and about overcoming and not making excuses.

If Peter's credentials are certified, and Peter certified Paul's credentials, then how are Paul's credentials not certified?

Provide verbatim quotes, dates, and sources of any recognized Bible teachers depending on Paul for salvation, or claiming that Paul delivered the New Covenant, or crediting Paul with changing the Law.
 
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eclipsenow

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This Reminds me of a line from the movie anchorman
Oh no - what have you done? Now I'm remembering Brick Tamland randomly just eating a banana, saying "I love lamp" and NEARLY KILLING ME as he rode the "furry tractor!" This was supposed to be a climate thread but now all I can remember is when Steve Carell made soft-drink shot out my nose!
giphy.gif
 
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claninja

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Oh no - what have you done? Now I'm remembering Brick Tamland randomly just eating a banana, saying "I love lamp" and NEARLY KILLING ME as he rode the "furry tractor!" This was supposed to be a climate thread but now all I can remember is when Steve Carell made soft-drink shot out my nose!
giphy.gif

lol. I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself.
 
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guyver

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A few yrs back 60 minutes did an interview with Bob Hawk and they were talking about climate change and he said the problem was that there are too many people on the planet.

On another occasion I was reading in a news paper that they believed cows were the problem , apparenlty according to them cows fart too much causing co2 probs , so they were going to make a pill to give to the cows to stop them from farting. Haven't heard anything since tho.

And more recently I heard that Bill Gates wants us to start eating fake meat , i'm guessing that might have to do with the cow prob not sure.

And now of coarse we enter the twilight zone of conspiracy theories where it is believed that all of the above probs are now being resolved and by 2030 most of the probs should be solved.
 
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eclipsenow

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A few yrs back 60 minutes did an interview with Bob Hawk and they were talking about climate change and he said the problem was that there are too many people on the planet.
I guess being in the climate movement is a bit like being an ambassador for Christ. Jesus and what he said and did are one thing - but what can you say about those Branch Davidians at Waco Texas and the Westborough Baptist types? Try to learn the difference between what the science says and what those extremists in the movement say. I myself am not a climate scientist, but I take the science seriously and try to read through it now and then. It's hard - and I am sometimes limited to the executive summaries of some papers. But this threat is real - whether or not people in the movement sometimes say silly things.

On another occasion I was reading in a news paper that they believed cows were the problem , apparenlty according to them cows fart too much causing co2 probs , so they were going to make a pill to give to the cows to stop them from farting. Haven't heard anything since tho.
First, it's not the farts but their methane burps that are the problem. It emits methane, a more potent greenhouse gas. But it also means the cow is losing mass. There's a red seaweed cows can eat that somehow reduces the methane produced and helps the cow absorb all those bugs instead. After all, cows don't really 'eat' the grass - but the proteins they get from the micro-organisms and gut-bugs that DO eat the grass. Indeed, as you're an Aussie you might be interested in my seaweed page where there are some Tim Flannery quotes and his TED talk and ABC movie all about how seaweed could save the world! That's just ONE way we could rapidly sequester carbon. IF we got serious.
Saving the oceans

And more recently I heard that Bill Gates wants us to start eating fake meat , i'm guessing that might have to do with the cow prob not sure.
It's not just about reducing cow methane for climate purposes but about feeding a world of 10 billion all the protein they need. Sunlight into grass into protein from a cow is an extremely inefficient use of land. The cow is a great big mammal that must maintain all those organs and bones and body temperature, and takes forever to grow to slaughter. There are more efficient ways to run that process:-
* First - seaweed and shellfish farming can feed the world, and also grow feedstock for plastics, pharmaceuticals, concrete, paper, biofuels, and sequester all the carbon we want to. It's just about scale. Then, back on the land we can:-
* Grow soy beans with the red-meat tasting heme in them. Mix the soy-beans with other veggies like coconut fibres and you have Impossible Burgers directly from the sun and land - not going through an animal at all.
* OR we can throw vegetable waste into an insect farm and get protein that way. Aldi in Europe sell insect burger protein. Add some heme flavour somehow, and could be good.
* Then there's the 'clean meat' science that's trying to grow actual meat cells but in vats of growth medium instead of on a cow. It's also called vat-grown or tank-grown meat, but anti-science hippies call them Frankenfoods. More about them under point 3E on my blog. blog.Regenerative Agriculture

And now of coarse we enter the twilight zone of conspiracy theories where it is believed that all of the above probs are now being resolved and by 2030 most of the probs should be solved.
Time really is running out. I'm not saying it's the end of the world - but it could be the end of many countries and some of the geopolitical structures we've taken for granted. It could also be the end of many species we love today. Each species has a vital place in the ecosystem. How many can we lose? Every time we lose one it's like a mammal losing an organ. How many before that ecosystem starts to die?
 
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eclipsenow

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Some think a few degrees of warming is the difference between wearing a hat or not. But that's weather. Weather is a local accumulation of energy - climate is a global increase. Weather is like a wave in the bath - climate is someone leaving the tap on.
Climate is 4 Hiroshima bombs per second extra heat energy added to the planet EVERY SECOND of every day. It means melting ice, migrating ecosystems, dying coral and fisheries, and 'loading the dice' of weather. We see it more each year, from the incredible Australian 2019 drought and mega-fires to the 2021-22 'stuck' La Nina and mega-floods. It's just NUTS that our Prime Minister keeps minimising how quickly we've got to get off all fossil fuels - even gas - and promising coal has a future.

Here's another thing. The bible shows how much God loves his creation. Even in times of war in the OT Israel were commanded not to cut down all the trees. But that's a major part of warfare - siege equipment, forts, weapons, cooking fuel for a large army, etc. But God cares about what he has made. He cares for each sparrow that falls. He's that kind of loving Father. And yet there's a bunch of alt-right Christians that are somehow troubled by the basic physics of global warming that Joseph Fourier discovered nearly 200 years ago! I just don't get it. I guess part of these End Times we live in is that people would be lovers of self rather than truth.
 
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DavidPT

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Some think a few degrees of warming is the difference between wearing a hat or not. But that's weather. Weather is a local accumulation of energy - climate is a global increase. Weather is like a wave in the bath - climate is someone leaving the tap on.
Climate is 4 Hiroshima bombs per second extra heat energy added to the planet EVERY SECOND of every day. It means melting ice, migrating ecosystems, dying coral and fisheries, and 'loading the dice' of weather. We see it more each year, from the incredible Australian 2019 drought and mega-fires to the 2021-22 'stuck' La Nina and mega-floods. It's just NUTS that our Prime Minister keeps minimising how quickly we've got to get off all fossil fuels - even gas - and promising coal has a future.

Here's another thing. The bible shows how much God loves his creation. Even in times of war in the OT Israel were commanded not to cut down all the trees. But that's a major part of warfare - siege equipment, forts, weapons, cooking fuel for a large army, etc. But God cares about what he has made. He cares for each sparrow that falls. He's that kind of loving Father. And yet there's a bunch of alt-right Christians that are somehow troubled by the basic physics of global warming that Joseph Fourier discovered nearly 200 years ago! I just don't get it. I guess part of these End Times we live in is that people would be lovers of self rather than truth.

It's almost May and I live in east Texas. I was looking at the 10 day forecast earlier and it's still calling for some nights with temps in the 40s. I blame that on global warming. What else could explain it, right?
 
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eclipsenow

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It's almost May and I live in east Texas. I was looking at the 10 day forecast earlier and it's still calling for some nights with temps in the 40s. I blame that on global warming. What else could explain it, right?
I wish America used metric - can you unpack what that sentence means for you?
 
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eclipsenow

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This next one must make God weep. What us humans will do to make a dollar and get rich and powerful!

Basically, this is why boomers and GenX have lower IQ's than than kids raised today. (I wonder if that's why these generations are more likely to buy into anti-science conspiracies around climate change and vaccines?) Boomers and GenX also had measurably higher crime rates! Why? We've all been poisoned!

 
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eclipsenow

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Here's the other thing to keep in mind - if the Lord delays his return and we ignore the threats of climate change - we run out of fossil fuels this century or early next century.

But beware. The following graph is based on the 3 most deceptive words in resource reporting: "At current rates".

Those rates could increase if annual demand continues to rise by 3% a year - which would radically shorten the time we have. Or it could stretch off indefinitely if we start to use more and more clean sustainable renewables and nuclear.

The ethical implications are profound and worthy of deep reading and thought by Christian leaders.

years-of-fossil-fuel-reserves-left.png
 
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sparow

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Here's the other thing to keep in mind - if the Lord delays his return and we ignore the threats of climate change - we run out of fossil fuels this century or early next century.

But beware. The following graph is based on the 3 most deceptive words in resource reporting: "At current rates".

Those rates could increase if annual demand continues to rise by 3% a year - which would radically shorten the time we have. Or it could stretch off indefinitely if we start to use more and more clean sustainable renewables and nuclear.

The ethical implications are profound and worthy of deep reading and thought by Christian leaders.

View attachment 316793

I disagree! What does “renewable” mean; is a windmill capable of recreating itself or is it the energy contained in the wind that is renewed?

I do not expect that fossil fuel will last indefinitely; but how long they will last is any body's guess; what I do know is if the world's population was halved fossil fuel would last twice as long. Necessity is the mother of invention; but before a problem can be solved the problem first has to be defined; climate change is a monumental hoax, or deception, hiding a real problem.

The timing of the Lord's return is predetermined, even though the timing is not known to Jesus, only to the Father; the time will be shortened such that some of God's people will be left alive when He returns. How will God's people be threatened; the first death will not rob anyone of their salvation, so what could cause person to loose their salvation; the great deception, where people inadvertently change sides and serve the wrong master.

Two things are ahead of us, one, tyranny and two, the great and terrible day of the Lord, culminating with the return of Christ. Tyranny is to do with world government, and the Christian leaders that you refer to; if they are for world government they are against God; they could not be so naive so as not to know that climate change is a sinister hoax. The great and terrible day of the Lord, also called the Lord's day, has been with us for 2000 years. John records the Lord's day in Revelation, beginning with a rider on a white horse and ends with the same rider on a white horse.

Of course the atmosphere traps heat, without which our planet would be an ice block. If religious Leaders want to create fear they should be warning of the public of the impending climax to the Day of the Lord, the return of Christ, the Law stretched tight and the second death.
 
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eclipsenow

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I disagree! What does “renewable” mean; is a windmill capable of recreating itself or is it the energy contained in the wind that is renewed?

The fuel source is not extinguished in the near future. The wind is 'renewable' in that as long as the sun shines, the wind blows.

But I also classify nuclear as 'renewable' - because we can extract uranium from seawater and the oceans are constantly topped up with uranium particles from continental drift + erosion FASTER than we could use it! (Especially if we're getting 90 times the energy out of each bit of uranium by using breeder reactors that burn nuclear 'waste'.) From this perspective, uranium could last a billion years!

I do not expect that fossil fuel will last indefinitely;
Good. It won't.

but how long they will last is any body's guess;
I'm not going to bet what day, month, or year they run out. But depending on consumption trends etc, we can map roughly what decade they run out. And that's not even the issue! About half way through the life of fossil fuels we've used up the cheap, easily extractable resource and move from ever increasing supplies of cheap resource (oil, gas, or coal) to ever decreasing and slowing extraction of expensive resource that can NEVER AGAIN MEET DEMAND. More on this here. Peak oil - Wikipedia

So now you have to - very roughly - halve the global proven reserves to guess the peak of all these resources. Because that's when the world starts to get into real economic trouble if it is not ready!

Some have predicted coal peaks around now. Remember - that will not solve climate change - even if true and predicting the peak is really hard - because half way through the best cheap coal still means we've got half the coal there ever was to burn. That's too much - enough to cook the planet 5 times over! I really hope coal DOES peak soon as it might generate the incentive to get off the foul, deadly stuff! But you can see that if even coal is about to peak, not all is well in fossil fuel land.

climate change is a monumental hoax, or deception, hiding a real problem.
Climate change is real. Read about the history of it. Glance at my signature!

The timing of the Lord's return is predetermined, even though the timing is not known to Jesus, only to the Father; the time will be shortened such that some of God's people will be left alive when He returns.
But this remains true even if the human race crashes back to a few tens of thousands in a climate catastrophe! As well as being keen on solving climate change here, I'm also a fan of CAUSING climate change on Mars. Extreme climate change! As in, terraforming that planet. See, we know how to cook a planet! The same physics working against us here could work for us on Mars. But that's a centuries long project over there - and raises interesting questions like how we're going to fund missionaries to Mars! (Or will people 'catch' the gospel over there by the solar system's internet one day?)

How will God's people be threatened; the first death will not rob anyone of their salvation, so what could cause person to loose their salvation; the great deception, where people inadvertently change sides and serve the wrong master.
Like climate deniers who don't know that their opinion has been paid for by Exxon Mobile and the Koch brothers?


Two things are ahead of us, one, tyranny and two, the great and terrible day of the Lord, culminating with the return of Christ. Tyranny is to do with world government,
I'm actually a fan of global democratic governance systems. Imagine being able to vote for a global parliament?

See, Revelation is about the Roman Empire persecuting God's people - and then giving us general principles about how to deal with suffering when and if governments turn on us. There's also stuff in their about how to cope with wealth and abundance as well! My point? It's a sermon about the future, NOT a timetable or even undated future sequence of events. It's a symbolic sermon. That's it! In other words, the Lord could return in 5 seconds or 500 centuries - we just don't know! And my bet is that because God is loving and wants a big kingdom, he might just be patient enough to wait a longer time than most here would believe.

and the Christian leaders that you refer to; if they are for world government they are against God;
I am for global democratic mechanisms, and I am for God.
Now what?


they could not be so naive so as not to know that climate change is a sinister hoax.
Climate denial is a sinister hoax, and Exxon is being sued for the sheer amount of money they have pumped into deceiving the public. Now where does that leave us?

Of course the atmosphere traps heat, without which our planet would be an ice block.
Which we've known for 200 years - since Joseph Fourier discovered it in the 1820's. Then Eunice foot discovered CO2 - see my signature.

If religious Leaders want to create fear they should be warning of the public of the impending climax to the Day of the Lord, the return of Christ, the Law stretched tight and the second death.
Sure - which could happen in 5 seconds.
Or 50,000 years! We just don't know.
In the meantime, do you look both ways before crossing the road?
Have you studied hard to have a career?
Have you got plans for your holidays this year? next year?
Have you got insurance? Brush your teeth so they last decades? Go to the gym so your health lasts longer? Avoid eating lead or arsenic in any quantities? Climate change is like that. It's risk management. Not everyone is going to die from climate change - it's risk management. It's science. There are Christian climatologists. Indeed, Sir John Houghton was the first head of the IPCC and was a Christian. (Went to the Lord a few years ago.)
 
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Hi all,
I know too many Christians that don't care about climate change because they think it's all a sign that the Lord is about to return. Or worse, they've bought into some anti-science global conspiracy theory that climate change isn't even real but a myth perpetrated by some Satanic Cabal. Enter the Blacklist theme or even X-Files.

But it is real, the human race is learning more and more about it, and Christians have a God who loves THIS creation that he has made - even though we also look forward to meeting Jesus in the NEXT creation as well. We have a moral obligation to think and talk and vote on climate change. It will hurt ANY other social cause you care about, like world-peace, the economy, aged care, jobs, education, etc. I pray the Lord returns tonight to spare us - but I'm also aware that we don't know WHEN he will return. It could be 5 seconds or 50,000 years.

So if you're shrugging your shoulders, or even wincing about all this, does this next few paragraphs describe yourself? It's written by a friend of mine with a bachelor of theology from Moore College in Sydney, and a Phd in Eco-Theology.

Some Christians, noting the borrowing of apocalyptic language by activists, are inclined to ignore the whole thing as another human attempt to claim control of even how the world is going to end. Instead, affirming that the end is in God's hands alone, they argue that any claims of humanity bringing about the end by our own efforts (even inadvertently) must be treated with extreme suspicion.

Personally, while it is difficult to get a good grip on the magnitude of the threat represented by climate change without recourse to some very strong language, I think that it is best to remain agnostic about the relationship between our preset distress and threats and the divine promises relating to ultimate realities. It may be that there is some link, but there is no particular reason in my opinion to think so. Even if our actions lead to the downfall of our way of life and the utter transformation of our society into something so different that in hindsight it is appropriate to speak of industrial civilisation having experienced a self-induced collapse, this need not be the end of the world. To use a line that is growing increasingly common, the end of the world as we know it is not necessarily the end of the world.​

And where this cuts the mustard for me is that sometimes apocalyptic thought can become a lazy way out of ethical deliberation. Apocalyptic becomes lazy where it is in the service of a fatalism that assumes our destiny is doomed by the greater power of nature (whether acting blindly, under its own authority as a personified (and angry) mother earth, or as the instrument of God's inexorable judgement) or which conversely rejects the possibility of social self-destruction in principle. In each case, the future is seen as closed and human actions as ultimately irrelevant, in which case, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die. It can also be lazy where it is used to create panic and a desperate acceptance of whatever medicine is closest to hand. This is a kind of non-emancipatory shock that stuns the hearer into passive acceptance of the salvific social, economic and/or political solution that swiftly follows the apocalyptic account.
nothing new under the sun: The end is nigh? Apocalyptic thought and our present distress


I agree with this . I get a bit sick to be honest of hearing some say to not care about the earth because Jesus is coming back. Well He is, but we could have several generations still to come!

Also many of us in the West will probably adapt to some aspects of climate change but what about our neighbours (.whom Jesus told us to love) who live in developing countries and will suffer the worst outcomes ? It seems selfish to not care.

I do see that our care for the earth shouldn't come before sharing the gospel etc but you can say that about anything! Watching tv, going on holiday, running a business etc anything can be a distraction that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in itself
 
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eclipsenow

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I do see that our care for the earth shouldn't come before sharing the gospel etc but you can say that about anything! Watching tv, going on holiday, running a business etc anything can be a distraction that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in itself

Exactly - and if our consumerist lifestyles are getting in the way of us having time to read about this stuff and be properly informed Christian thinking people - not just meme-absorbers - then maybe some of that stuff IS bad in itself. It's distracting us from being authentically informed about the actual world.

Some above seem to have just inherited their position on these matters from their local anti-Democrat culture.
 
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RDKirk

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I'm not going to bet what day, month, or year they run out. But depending on consumption trends etc, we can map roughly what decade they run out. And that's not even the issue! About half way through the life of fossil fuels we've used up the cheap, easily extractable resource and move from ever increasing supplies of cheap resource (oil, gas, or coal) to ever decreasing and slowing extraction of expensive resource that can NEVER AGAIN MEET DEMAND. More on this here. Peak oil - Wikipedia

So now you have to - very roughly - halve the global proven reserves to guess the peak of all these resources. Because that's when the world starts to get into real economic trouble if it is not ready!

Some have predicted coal peaks around now. Remember - that will not solve climate change - even if true and predicting the peak is really hard - because half way through the best cheap coal still means we've got half the coal there ever was to burn. That's too much - enough to cook the planet 5 times over! I really hope coal DOES peak soon as it might generate the incentive to get off the foul, deadly stuff! But you can see that if even coal is about to peak, not all is well in fossil fuel land.

Let's not forget we need coal to make steel and oil to make plastic...so we may not want to just burn it all up.
 
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