Can women teach?

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

Believer000 said:
A Christian woman cannot be the head over her own husband so how can she be the head over other womens husbands within the Church?. Women are not to have authority over men, Scripture makes this very clear.

Just one writer mentions that and explains it is due to local law.

Far clearer is the golden rule which rules out any gender bias.
It's also covered by multiple authors in many places and includes no exceptions.
The bias against the poor is also covered.
I wouldn't put women in a different category. That would be dumb.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Matthew 22:39-40
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Ezekiel 18:7-8
does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man,

Isaiah 1:17-18
learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

James 2:10-13
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Psalm 8:4-8
what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the seas.

Genesis 3:22
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”

Psalm 100:3
Know that the Lord, he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Genesis 5:1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
Take it up with God. I don't make the rules.

God has a hierarchy in heaven. There are angels and archangels, for example.

Male and females angels> All treated the same... Word.

Churches can be easily dissolved. No harm done.
History is solid with failed church structures. More to come. The ones with Cardinals and such are in jeopardy. They need not exist, so they need no official man invented structures.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

Sketcher said:
Not as a local law, he didn't. There were local conditions that the church in Corinth faced - one of them being sharing a city with the temple of Aphrodite, which had priestesses, whose influence may have caused trouble in the assembly - but Paul never mentioned anything about it being illegal.

Yes, local law.

1 Corinthians 14:34
The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

God requests that we follow the laws of our local government.
Jesus did this at His crucifixion, as an example for us.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
Take it up with God. I don't make the rules.

I posted the golden rule which trumps all other thoughts.

Do unto others - just as if you were on the other end, personally.

Sketcher · Apr 19, 2022

SkyWriting said:
Yes, local law.

1 Corinthians 14:34
The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

That's not local law. That's Jewish Law, women do not expound on Torah at the synagogues based on the Jewish Law.

Der Alte · Apr 19, 2022

Believer000 said:
A Christian woman cannot be the head over her own husband so how can she be the head over other womens husbands within the Church?. Women are not to have authority over men, Scripture makes this very clear. This has nothing to do with discrimination or value. The reason why is because Eve was decieved and sinned first, we bear this brunt now. As a result of Eve's sin, - God set men over women to be in positions of authority within His church, and that means teaching His Word as a leader in the Church.

That is probably what those you acknowledge as leaders/teachers etc. have taught you but that ain't what scripture says. Please do quote your out-of-context proof texts and put me in my place.
Not bragging just informing. I started learning to speak Greek overseeing Greek guest workers in Germany in '59 not knowing that a bit over two decades later I would be studying both Greek and Hebrew at the graduate level.
Here is one proof text that I am aware of.

1 Timothy 2:12
(12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Notice Paul did NOT say anything like "Thus saith the Lord." Instead Paul gives his personal opinion. "I [Paul] do not permit a woman to usurp authority over the man." And please note Paul did not say "I do not permit a woman to have authority over the man." "Usurp" means "take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force." If a church chooses to give authority to someone there is no scripture which prohibits it.
.....About 3 decades ago the senior pastor of a large downtown mega church, associated with a certain large southern denomination, retired. The congregation voted to elect a female associate pastor as senior pastor. The denominational authorities said they would kick the church out of the denomination if they did that.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

Sketcher said:
That's not local law. That's Jewish Law, women do not expound on Torah at the synagogues based on the Jewish Law.

Jewish law was local law at the time. It depends on the location.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

Sketcher said:
Wrong.

If you "treat other people"
the way
you would wish to be treated
then
you are unable to treat women as a different class of people from men.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Sketcher · Apr 19, 2022

SkyWriting said:
Jewish law was local law at the time. It depends on the location.

In Corinth? No it was not.

SkyWriting said:
If you "treat other people"
the way
you would wish to be treated
then
you are unable to treat women as a different class of people from men.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Nope. It has to do with rules for positions of church leadership and spiritual headship.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

Believer000 said:
A Christian woman cannot be the head over her own husband so how can she be the head over other womens husbands within the Church?. Women are not to have authority over men, Scripture makes this very clear.

Just those particular churches, in that time. Because Jewish law of the day said so. We have new moderner laws now a days that make discrimination illegal.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
God has order within the church. There is hierarchy and leadership. No one should suffer discrimination, but that does not mean that anyone and his dog can do as they please in the church. The church is the Body of Christ and each person has their own, unique place. Not permitting the hand to act as if it were an eye is not discrimination. You treat the hand and eye well. But trying to see with the hand is just stupid. Like wise in the Body of Christ. The apostles got it right. You have it wrong.

We can quote Jesus in many places telling the disciples that they are without clue, especially around "the ladies." He regularly put the disciples in their place on womens issues.

Strong in Him · Apr 20, 2022

Clare73 said:
It is in Paul's meaning.

The teaching from the pulpit is received from the congregation as from their shepherd.
Women are not shepherds of assemblies, which shepherd is a position of authority.

No, that's your interpretation.

If I know something about a subject, you don't and I tell you about it or share it with you, that doesn't mean I have authority over you.
Preachers very often consult concordances, and other reference books, when preparing a sermon in any case. So who is the teacher?
Preaching also involves an element of prophecy - which is forth-telling the word of God, not foretelling; and there were female prophets in the Bible. Indeed, Paul tells women how to prophesy.

And the teaching from the pulpit is not necessarily "received" - it's perfectly possibly to disagree with a preacher. In fact, if someone does and tells them/others, that's when the best conversations begin. Like I said, my Minister does not tell me/us what to think or believe.

Aussie Pete · Apr 20, 2022

SkyWriting said:
We can quote Jesus in many places telling the disciples that they are without clue, especially around "the ladies." He regularly put the disciples in their place on womens issues.

That has nothing to do with the subject. He rebuked the disciples for their attitude to children. That does not mean infants can be pastors.

I note that it was 12 male apostles. Equality does not mean that men and women are the same. That's the world's thinking. I can envisage a day when men will get womb transplants. It's already possible to take enough drugs to induce male lactation. It's an abomination. God, like it or not, created male and female. He created Eve to be a helper. If you do not like it, take it up with God.

Aussie Pete · Apr 20, 2022

SkyWriting said:
Just one writer mentions that and explains it is due to local law.

Far clearer is the golden rule which rules out any gender bias.
It's also covered by multiple authors in many places and includes no exceptions.
The bias against the poor is also covered.
I wouldn't put women in a different category. That would be dumb.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Matthew 22:39-40
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Ezekiel 18:7-8
does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man,

Isaiah 1:17-18
learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

James 2:10-13
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Psalm 8:4-8
what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the seas.

Genesis 3:22
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”

Psalm 100:3
Know that the Lord, he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Genesis 5:1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.

You omitted this: Genesis 1. 18The LORD God also said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper.”

I've worked as a tradesman's assistant. I did what I was asked and under the supervision of the tradesman. My role was important. Often, the job could not be done by the tradesman alone. But I was always subordinate. The church is a body, not a collection of individuals free to do as they please. At least, that's how it is supposed to be.

Believer000 · Apr 20, 2022

SkyWriting said:
Male and females angels> All treated the same... Word.

Churches can be easily dissolved. No harm done.
History is solid with failed church structures. More to come. The ones with Cardinals and such are in jeopardy. They need not exist, so they need no official man invented structures.

There are no female angels. Angels do not need to reproduce.

Believer000 · Apr 20, 2022

Strong in Him said:
No, that's your interpretation.

If I know something about a subject, you don't and I tell you about it or share it with you, that doesn't mean I have authority over you.
Preachers very often consult concordances, and other reference books, when preparing a sermon in any case. So who is the teacher?
Preaching also involves an element of prophecy - which is forth-telling the word of God, not foretelling; and there were female prophets in the Bible. Indeed, Paul tells women how to prophesy.

And the teaching from the pulpit is not necessarily "received" - it's perfectly possibly to disagree with a preacher. In fact, if someone does and tells them/others, that's when the best conversations begin. Like I said, my Minister does not tell me/us what to think or believe.

Women can teach, - that is not being debated. Women just cannot have authority over a man within the Church, - this includes teaching and leading the congregation as a whole. Other women and children are those whom she can teach.

Strong in Him · Apr 20, 2022

Believer000 said:
Women can teach, - that is not being debated.

Well it is, because I said:

Strong in Him said:
Teaching is not having - and the verse says usurping - authority over someone.
Scripture does not say that women cannot teach in the Christian assembly.

And the repy from someone else was;

Clare73 said:
It is in Paul's meaning.

The teaching from the pulpit is received from the congregation as from their shepherd.

Believer000 said:
Women just cannot have authority over a man within the Church, - this includes teaching and leading the congregation as a whole.

I've asked before; what does "having authority over" (and the word is "usurp", which means to grab by force) someone look like in the church - given that a Minister does not tell someone how to live their personal life, how much to give, what to believe or even what church to go to?
If clergy recognise that God, who has ALL authority, has called a woman to be ordained, or to be a preacher, and they train, and anoint her to do that - how has she forcibly grabbed authority from them?
Where does Scripture say that a woman cannot teach a man? Isn't that what Deborah and the OT prophetesses did?

Der Alte · Apr 20, 2022

Believer000 said:
A Christian woman cannot be the head over her own husband so how can she be the head over other womens husbands within the Church?. Women are not to have authority over men, Scripture makes this very clear. This has nothing to do with discrimination or value. The reason why is because Eve was decieved and sinned first, we bear this brunt now. As a result of Eve's sin, - God set men over women to be in positions of authority within His church, and that means teaching His Word as a leader in the Church.

I know that many so-called "pastors"/"teachers' etc. teach that but that ain't what Paul said.

1 Timothy 2:12
(12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Please note Paul did NOT say anything like "Thus saith the Lord." or similar words. Instead Paul gives us his opinion. "I [Paul] suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man'" And contrary to what some insist Paul did NOT say '...nor to have authority over the man." The word "usurp" means ":take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force:" If a church chooses to appoint a woman as pastor there is not one single verse which prohibits it.
In the early '80s the senior pastor of a certain big city mega church associated with a certain large Southern denomination retired the church elected a woman one of the associate pastors as senior pastor. Immediately the governing body of that denomination threatened to kick the church out of the denomination if they did not reverse the action.
Copied on-line.

""X" church one of the largest churches in the Southern Baptist Convention and home to influential pastor******** ordained three women as staff pastors this past weekend, a move that critics say violates the denomination’s statement of faith."

Clare73 · Apr 20, 2022

Strong in Him said:
No, that's your interpretation.

No, that is the apostolic thinking seen in the NT.

If I know something about a subject, you don't and
I tell you about it or share it with you, that doesn't mean I have authority over you.

In apostolic thinking, whomever speaks from the pulpit is received as a shepherd of the people.

You simply disagree with the word of God in 1 Timothy 2:11-14, which injunction is grounded in God's creation order, which is permanent.

Preachers very often consult concordances, and other reference books, when preparing a sermon in any case. So who is the teacher?
Preaching also involves an element of prophecy - which is forth-telling the word of God, not foretelling; and there were female prophets in the Bible. Indeed, Paul tells women how to prophesy.

And the teaching from the pulpit is not necessarily "received" - it's perfectly possibly to disagree with a preacher. In fact, if someone does and tells them/others, that's when the best conversations begin. Like I said, my Minister does not tell me/us what to think or believe.

Der Alte · Apr 20, 2022

SkyWriting said:
If you "treat other people"
the way
you would wish to be treated
then
you are unable to treat women as a different class of people from men.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The same writer, Paul, who wrote "there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" also wrote "I [Paul] suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." With no mandate from God. Usurp means "take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force:"

Can women teach?

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Great is thy faithfulness

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Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Great is thy faithfulness

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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