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The Liturgist

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Genuine ministry to such folks is not shut down. It is given some boundaries. But good, healthy, sound, safe ministry is still allowed.

According to you praying for someone on their own request even when you have done nothing to suggest, induce or manipulate the request that someone be delivered from homosexual lust and be attracted to persons of the opposite gender is prohibited. There is no way in which such a practice constitutes unhealthy, unsafe, unsound or bad ministry. Indeed it is malpractice to refuse to pray for anything requested that is reasonable.
 
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tall73

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tall73 said:

However, do you think it being biological means that God designed these desires to be there?


That brings up the question "why does God allow bad things to happen?" That is a bigger question than what we are talking about here.

It is related to what we are talking about here for a few reasons. And the way you have correctly spoken of it here points out some reasons why.

Same sex attraction is not a "good" thing. And it is not a "neutral" thing. It is a "bad" thing that has happened to some, because it is an attraction to something that God forbids.

And you have rightly said the action is forbidden. It is forbidden and declared to be contrary to nature in Romans 1. It is an attraction to something outside of God's design.

In this regard it is similar to an attraction to stealing, to envy, etc. It is a desire to do something God does not want us to do.

Bad things happening refers to the presence of sin in the world, where things can still befall people, even if they did not bring it about. And that is exactly what is happening here. As @The Liturgist put it, the homosexual Christian has an additional cross to bear.

It is not because their nature is worse than other people. All people in a world with sin have a sinful nature, the flesh, a selfish nature that bears fruit to death. So homosexual sin is in the same category as stealing, envy, fits of rage etc. We all are tempted to something in those lists of things that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. And we all have committed sins that would condemn us.

When Christ comes in we are washed, sanctified and justified. We are forgiven and we have a new means of living out the righteous requirements of God through the Spirit of God.

The homosexual Christian has an additional cross to bear because the particular attraction to something God does not want is at the intersection of so many aspects of our life. So while it is true that the heterosexual and the homosexual deal with lust, there is an additional element. A straight person upon being born again has the option to marry, and to have an application of the attraction that is felt in a way that God designed, within the one flesh relationship between husband and wife. A gay person does not have that same option, and that is painful.

This pain of trying to reconcile why God allowed this to happen IS related to abuse for the following reason. The very people who should understand most the difficulty that the homosexual believer is in--the church--instead have often shamed them for the temptations they face. But Christians should know, through His word, that those confronted with homosexual attraction are in the big picture struggling with the flesh as are all of us, that our flesh is opposed to the Spirit of God, that our flesh desires things God doesn't want us to do. We should have empathy with them, and even more so because their particular temptation is so disruptive to their life.

The Christian who is tempted to same sex activity, but who through Christ has been forgiven and infilled with the Spirit is still every bit as much a Christian as any other. And when they are treated poorly by those who should be helping them, that is what results in this abuse.

But ministry by such as @The Liturgist or @Carl Emerson is not in fact shaming homosexual Christians. In fact no one could read @The Liturgist 's account of his compassion for the people he ministers to who are tempted by this and not realize he cares deeply for them. He is not giving the abusive messages being warned about in the testimonies of those who received incorrect messages.

But beyond that he is actually giving the correct message. We are all sinners, we all have a sinful nature, and the person who is dealing with same sex attraction is no more a sinner, and has an even more difficult struggle, which needs support from fellow believers.

That is not abuse. That is ministry.

Something bad has happened to them, the fall of humankind, sin entering the world, and God has made a solution to that, through His plan of salvation. That plan will mean everyone who trusts in Him will be delivered from this fallen nature, when He sets all things right. But in the meantime He gives us His Spirit to put to death the sinful nature. And yes, that often means refraining from sinful actions though we are still tempted. But it can also look like God working in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure, and that as we spend more time with Him some things no longer tempt us the same way. And it can even mean that He takes some particular temptation away from us completely, miraculously. How He keeps His promise that we will not be tempted beyond what we can endure, but will with the temptation give a way of escape is up to Him.

Because we are to carry one another's burdens (Gal 6) we are to watch out not just for ourselves, but others, and help them to trust in God in this sinful world. And we are to realize we too are subject to temptation. We are not ministering to them as superior, but as sinners who are only washed, sanctified and justified by Christ.

And if we take the time to actually teach this to our church and to those struggling with same sex attraction as well it helps prevent abuse by church members who should be helping. Those who understand that this is the result of the fall, that God will restore all things, that we in the meantime must depend on His Spirit, don't condemn those who have a difficult road.
 
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The Liturgist

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tall73 said:

However, do you think it being biological means that God designed these desires to be there?




It is related to what we are talking about here for a few reasons. And the way you have correctly spoken of it here points out some reasons why.

Same sex attraction is not a "good" thing. And it is not a "neutral" thing. It is a "bad" thing that has happened to some, because it is an attraction to something that God forbids.

And you have rightly said the action is forbidden. It is forbidden and declared to be contrary to nature in Romans 1. It is an attraction to something outside of God's design.

In this regard it is similar to an attraction to stealing, to envy, etc. It is a desire to do something God does not want us to do.

Now the phrase bad thing happening to good people notes that in the world where sin is present bad things can still befall people, even if they did not bring it about. And that is exactly what is happening here. As @The Liturgist put it, the homosexual Christian has an additional cross to bear.

It is not because their nature is worse than other people. All people in a world with sin have a sinful nature, the flesh, a selfish nature that bears fruit to death. So homosexual sin is in the same category as stealing, envy, fits of rage etc. We all are tempted to something in those lists of things that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. And we all have committed sins that would condemn us.

When Christ comes in we are washed, sanctified and justified. We are forgiven and we have a new means of living out the righteous requirements of God through the Spirit of God.

The homosexual Christian has an additional cross to bear because the particular attraction to something God does not want is at the intersection of so many aspects of our life. So while it is true that the heterosexual and the homosexual deal with lust, there is an additional element. A straight person upon being born again has the option to marry, and to have an application of the attraction that is felt in a way that God designed, within the one flesh relationship between husband and wife. A gay person does not have that same option, and that is painful.

This pain of trying to reconcile why God allowed this to happen IS related to abuse for the following reason. The very people who should understand most the difficulty that the homosexual believer is in--the church--instead have often shamed them for the temptations they face. But Christians should know, through His word, that those confronted with homosexual attraction are in the big picture struggling with the flesh as are all of us, that our flesh is opposed to the Spirit of God, that our flesh desires things God doesn't want us to do. We should have empathy with them, and even more so because their particular temptation is so disruptive to their life.

The Christian who is tempted to same sex activity, but who through Christ has been forgiven and infilled with the Spirit is still every bit as much a Christian as any other. And when they are treated poorly by those who should be helping them, that is what results in this abuse.

But ministry such as @The Liturgist or @Carl Emerson is not in fact shaming homosexual Christians. In fact no one could read @The Liturgist 's account of his compassion for the people he ministers to who are tempted by this and not realize he cares deeply for them. He is not giving the abusive messages being warned about in the testimonies of those who received incorrect messages.

But beyond that he is actually giving the correct message. We are all sinners, we all have a sinful nature, and the person who is dealing with same sex attraction is no more a sinner, and has an even more difficult struggle, which needs support from fellow believers.

That is not abuse. That is ministry.

And it is in that context, that something bad has happened to them, the fall of humankind, sin entering the world, and that God has made a solution to that, through His plan of salvation. That plan will mean everyone who trusts in Him will be delivered from this fallen nature, when He sets all things right. But in the meantime He gives us His Spirit to put to death the sinful nature. And yes, that often means refraining from sinful actions though we are still tempted. But it can also look like God working in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure, and that as we spend more time with Him some things no longer tempt us the same way. And it can even mean that He takes some particular temptation away from us completely, miraculously. How He keeps His promise that we will not be tempted beyond what we can endure, but will with the temptation give a way of escape is up to Him.

Because we are to carry one another's burdens (Gal 6) we are to watch out not just for ourselves, but others, and help them to trust in God in this sinful world. And we are to realize we too are subject to temptation. We are not ministering to them as superior, but as sinners who are only washed, sanctified and justified by Christ.

And if we take the time to actually teach this to our church and to those struggling with same sex attraction as well it helps prevent abuse by church members who should be helping. Those who understand that this is the result of the fall, that God will restore all things, that we in the meantime must depend on His Spirit, don't condemn those who have a difficult road.

I appreciate your support, because I have in fact set a priority to re-church homosexuals alienated by the megachurches clumsy attempts to get them to repent. As I see it their repentance is a slow process and you can’t just tell someone, these days, “you’re a sinner, you’re going to Hell unless you do x, y and z.” I mean Westboro Baptist Church kind of proved that’s not how you convert homosexuals, and at some point they gave up and just decided everyone not in their tiny cult was intrinsically damned and adopted the view of a few hyper Calvinist churches that decided not to bother with missionary work or evangelism.

At the same time I can’t tell a gay man that engaging in homosexual acts is acceptable in the sight of God. It’s not, it’s wrong, the Bible says its wrong, and by the way @Paidiske St. Paul was the one who warned that people doing that would not inherit the Kingdom of God, while also making it clear they could repent of it. So you realize you did actually object to people literally quoting the Pauline epistles in your previous post?
 
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PloverWing

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Healthy Christian marriage does not have lust.

Homosexual activity is driven by lust.

This post surprised me, so I want to make sure I have understood you correctly. It sounds like you're using the word "lust" to mean sexual desire that occurs outside of heterosexual marriage. So, by definition, sexual desire within heterosexual marriage is not lust; and sexual desire in any other context (including same-sex couples and unmarried opposite-sex couples) is, by definition, lust. Is that a correct understanding of what you're saying?
 
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The Liturgist

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I myself define lust as any sexual desire which does not arise from love. So specifically if you just want to have sex with someone. It is a dangerous passion which is at the root of most divorces and unwanted pregnancies and STDs, and which also is the driving force behind the inappropriate content industry and prostitution.
 
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Carl Emerson

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This post surprised me, so I want to make sure I have understood you correctly. It sounds like you're using the word "lust" to mean sexual desire that occurs outside of heterosexual marriage. So, by definition, sexual desire within heterosexual marriage is not lust; and sexual desire in any other context (including same-sex couples and unmarried opposite-sex couples) is, by definition, lust. Is that a correct understanding of what you're saying?

No...

What I am saying is that we were created to procreate in Love not lust. A healthy Christian marriage will not on any level be motivated by lust.

There are plenty of Christian marriages that are lust driven and they generally don't last.

However a homosexual is fundamentally lust driven if I understand Romans 1 correctly.

This means any homosexual union cannot be free of lust.

Lust is not just sexual desire outside of heterosexual marriage. Lust is common in Christian marriage but is self gratification, sinful, and not the Love of Jesus.

The suggestion that lust is needed to procreate is a nonsense.
 
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PloverWing

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However a homosexual is fundamentally lust driven if I understand Romans 1 correctly.

Okay, thanks. This differs from my experience of the couples in my parish, but I think I understand your point of view better. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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The Liturgist

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Can you expand on this ?

I assume he means there are homosexual couples in love in his parish. And I do not doubt this.

In fact, it is my opinion it is desirable for men to love each other. Men can kiss each other, hug each other, et cetera, they just should not engage in sexual acts upon each other. One problem with homosexuality is that it has made heterosexual men afraid to touch other heterosexual men in an affectionate manner for fear of coming across as gay.

But if you look at boys up to age 12 or 13, they commonly hug each other and love each other (that is what a best friend is) and have sleepovers and so on, without sexual interaction obviously (indeed, if children 10 and under initiate sexual activity with other children of the sort that adults engage in, as opposed to common albeit inappropriate activities like “playing doctor”, it is considered by many experts to be indicative of paedophiliac sexual abuse by a sexually developed youth or an adult). But by the time we are adults, we are afraid to relate to each other in this way unless we are homosexual because we don’t want to be misidentified as homosexual, including by our friends. Heterosexual women are much more affectionate with each other than heterosexual men, and this is unfortunate. It could also be due to a desire to avoid being seen as effeminate, but being affectionate should not be equated with femininity.

Basically, lust occurs when we love someone or see someone attractive and desire to have sexual relations with that person (or animal).* It is a result of a demonic assault on the normal cognitive response to the beauty of God’s creation.

*Distressingly, inappropriate behavior with animals is legal in a surprising number of jurisdictions. Also, even more distressingly, paedophilia is legal in some Islamic countries where one can legally wed a nine year old female and have relations with them, because Muhammed “married” Aisha at age six and began molesting her at age nine. I wish the UN was more effective and could push a treaty that would make this a crime in all parts of the world, with the ICC in the Hague given jurisdiction to prosecute offenders if the national government lacked the ability or willingness to do so.

Note that I am not comparing homosexual relations between consenting adults to inappropriate behavior with animals or paedophilia. Those activities are inherently rapacious and are thus obviously abhorrent and are seriously perverse to the point of being mental illnesses. California now has a facility, a mental hospital, where dangerous sexual predators are confined after completing their prison term until deemed safe to release into society. I think it should be expanded and all paedophiles sent there directly, because in prison they are frequently murdered.
 
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PloverWing

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Can you expand on this ?

I'm thinking of some married couples in my parish who I've watched support each other through good times and bad. I see them raise children together. I see them walk together through terrible things like a cancer diagnosis. I also see them work together as a team through the everyday ups and downs of life.

I'm really trying to avoid "promotion" here. I'm not offering any of this as an argument for same-sex marriage. I understand that you would encourage couples like this to live separately as celibate, platonic friends, and that most Christians worldwide would agree with you. I don't intend to debate you on that point at all.

But it seems disrespectful to the married couples I know to characterize their relationship as mere lust, especially if by "lust" you mean self-gratification without love.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm thinking of some married couples in my parish who I've watched support each other through good times and bad. I see them raise children together. I see them walk together through terrible things like a cancer diagnosis. I also see them work together as a team through the everyday ups and downs of life.

I'm really trying to avoid "promotion" here. I'm not offering any of this as an argument for same-sex marriage. I understand that you would encourage couples like this to live separately as celibate, platonic friends, and that most Christians worldwide would agree with you. I don't intend to debate you on that point at all.

But it seems disrespectful to the married couples I know to characterize their relationship as mere lust, especially if by "lust" you mean self-gratification without love.

I don’t think it is necessary for men to live separately at all. Indeed, consider Psalm 133:

“133 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.”

Indeed the whole point of cenobitic and idiorythmic monasticism (the former being Benedictine, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Trappist, Cistercian, Augustinian and all other common forms of monasticism), whereas the latter is basically a small group of monks living together without a formal rule in what is usually called a Skete, something particular to Eastern Orthodox monasticism, inspired by the semi-hermits of Scetis. The closest thing in the West might be the Carthusian charterhouses, which combine hermetic and cenobitic life, but they follow a strict rule.

If men want to live together, even sleep in the same bed, I have no objections. In fact I think bachelors should share a household with other men before marriage or live with their parents, rather than face the isolation of living alone, and likewise widowed elderly people should live together, but not in horrible institutionalized nursing homes, because the loneliness and isolation elderly people face in some countries, for example, the UK, is devastating.

All that Sacred Scripture and the tradition of the early church forbid is sexual acts between persons of the same sex. As long as you don’t do that, or marry a person of the other sex (for this desecrates the sacrament of Holy Matrimony), there is no problem. Sex is for heterosexual marriage. But literally anything else can be done by men of the same gender, provided the intent is not prurient or intended for sexual gratification.
 
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The Liturgist

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But it seems disrespectful to the married couples I know to characterize their relationship as mere lust, especially if by "lust" you mean self-gratification without love.

Let there be no doubt such men as these love one another, but the passion of lust hath overpowered them and causeth them to do that which is unnatural upon one another. Verily, a man in so doing inflicts harm upon the soul of their brother, endangering their salvation. Is the fleeting pleasure of concupiscence worth having to answer for before Christ Pantocrator? Is it worth it to have to stand with the unrepentant adulterers?
 
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Carl Emerson

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I'm thinking of some married couples in my parish who I've watched support each other through good times and bad. I see them raise children together. I see them walk together through terrible things like a cancer diagnosis. I also see them work together as a team through the everyday ups and downs of life.

I'm really trying to avoid "promotion" here. I'm not offering any of this as an argument for same-sex marriage. I understand that you would encourage couples like this to live separately as celibate, platonic friends, and that most Christians worldwide would agree with you. I don't intend to debate you on that point at all.

But it seems disrespectful to the married couples I know to characterize their relationship as mere lust, especially if by "lust" you mean self-gratification without love.

Jesus doesn't lead folks into sin and even sinners love those who love them. (Luke 6:32)

So the attraction is lust driven but the union can be a loving bond as you have observed.

It is significant that eros in the Greek has not one mention in the whole of the New Testament yet is probably the most well known Greek word.
 
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According to Philippians 4:6-7, prayer is making one's requests known to God. Using prayer as a "force" to exert one's will on another is nothing but sorcery. "I'm praying for you", implying that one is going to use God to force one's will on another is witchcraft, ie: putting a "prayer" spell on someone.
 
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The Liturgist

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Jesus doesn't lead folks into sin and even sinners love those who love them. (Luke 6:32)

So the attraction is lust driven but the union can be a loving bond as you have observed.

It is significant that eros in the Greek has not one mention in the whole of the New Testament yet is probably the most well known Greek word.

That said, as I mentioned to you previously, I think Eros was avoided in the NT because in Hellenic paganism it referred to the diety known to the Romans as Cupid, the son of Venus or Aphrodite.

Later in the first millenium, Greek Orthodox theologians described our love for God, most commonly called Agape, as Erotic, but they meant this in a non-sexual context, which I believe is derived from the idea of the Church as the Bride of Christ, who is the Bridegroom. Obviously this is a non-sexual connotation, a metaphor for extreme, overpowering love. CS Lewis proposed that in the parousia, and indeed in Heaven beforehand, we would experience and receive the same intense overpowering love that characterizes romantic love between a man and a woman albeit with God and the communion of the Saints, in a non-sexual context.*

*CS Lewis used the phrase trans-sexual, in That Hideous Strength if I recall correctly, albeit not in the sense it is used today meaning to change gende, but instead meaning transcending sexuality. indeed in The Great Divorce an androgynous couple decide not to board the bus for Heaven but remain in the civic center of Hell, which is depicted as a spectacularly large city in a state of twilight, because people therein can create houses and buildings at will but tend to dislike each other, and as a result almost all of the houses are empty as the population moves further apart; the inhabitants do collectively fear the coming night. He also argued that we will be trans-gastronomic, transcending the need to eat, but I think the resurrection accounts of our Lord disprove this as well as other scriptures. However, partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Life I believe refers not to eating a literal fruit granting immortality but rather our salvation through Christ’s passion on the Cross.
 
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According to Philippians 4:6-7, prayer is making one's requests known to God. Using prayer as a "force" to exert one's will on another is nothing but sorcery. "I'm praying for you", implying that one is going to use God to force one's will on another is witchcraft, ie: putting a "prayer" spell on someone.

I disagree with that, because Christians have prayed for the repentance of sinners and the conversion of non-believers for, as far as we know, the entire history of the Church.

The sole exception is we do not pray for the devil, for reasons explained by His Eminence Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, an English convert to the Greek Orthodox church: he asked a fellow bishop known for being an admirer of St. Gregory of Nyssa, in an attempt to strike up a conversation during a six hour drive, “If, as St. Gregory of Nyssa suggests, even the devil might be saved, why is it that we don’t pray for him?” The Greek bishop simply answered “Mind your own business” which His Eminence regarded as a good answer, because Satan is our adversary and whatever future plans God might have for the devil and the demons are neither known to us, nor are they frankly our concern or our business.
 
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Carl Emerson

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According to Philippians 4:6-7, prayer is making one's requests known to God. Using prayer as a "force" to exert one's will on another is nothing but sorcery. "I'm praying for you", implying that one is going to use God to force one's will on another is witchcraft, ie: putting a "prayer" spell on someone.
Are you responding to a question, a members comment, can you clarify?
 
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Paidiske

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Engaging in arsenokoetia is inherently unhealthy...

I don't believe I have so much as implied otherwise. I was speaking of the health of the messages we give, not of the health of sexual actions taken.

According to you praying for someone on their own request even when you have done nothing to suggest, induce or manipulate the request that someone be delivered from homosexual lust and be attracted to persons of the opposite gender is prohibited. There is no way in which such a practice constitutes unhealthy, unsafe, unsound or bad ministry. Indeed it is malpractice to refuse to pray for anything requested that is reasonable.

Except that the testimony of others is that such ministry is indeed often unsafe and unsound. The person praying might not have manipulated, the but the person being prayed for has often been brought to the point of making the request after many years of being manipulated etc. and the act of praying reinforces and entrenches all the evil messages that person has received. This is what I meant when I said that we need to take into account the context in which we minister; there is no gay person who comes for prayer, who has not been harmed by the messages "out there" about their rejection by God etc. We need to be careful not to legitimise those messages even by implication.

by the way @Paidiske...you realize you did actually object to people literally quoting the Pauline epistles in your previous post?

I don't object to anyone quoting Scripture, but I may object to particular ways in which people understand the Scriptures.

I do not, for example, accept a simple equivalence of attraction, desire and lust. I think each of those things is quite distinct, and I think much of the issue here is that people are equating attraction (finding someone or something pleasing or appealing), with desire (the will to act in particular ways). Yet I can find someone attractive and yet have no desire (will) to do anything improper with them.
 
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Carl Emerson

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That said, as I mentioned to you previously, I think Eros was avoided in the NT because in Hellenic paganism it referred to the diety known to the Romans as Cupid, the son of Venus or Aphrodite.

Later in the first millenium, Greek Orthodox theologians described our love for God, most commonly called Agape, as Erotic, but they meant this in a non-sexual context, which I believe is derived from the idea of the Church as the Bride of Christ, who is the Bridegroom. Obviously this is a non-sexual connotation, a metaphor for extreme, overpowering love. CS Lewis proposed that in the parousia, and indeed in Heaven beforehand, we would experience and receive the same intense overpowering love that characterizes romantic love between a man and a woman albeit with God and the communion of the Saints, in a non-sexual context.*

*CS Lewis used the phrase trans-sexual, in That Hideous Strength if I recall correctly, albeit not in the sense it is used today meaning to change gende, but instead meaning transcending sexuality. indeed in The Great Divorce an androgynous couple decide not to board the bus for Heaven but remain in the civic center of Hell, which is depicted as a spectacularly large city in a state of twilight, because people therein can create houses and buildings at will but tend to dislike each other, and as a result almost all of the houses are empty as the population moves further apart; the inhabitants do collectively fear the coming night. He also argued that we will be trans-gastronomic, transcending the need to eat, but I think the resurrection accounts of our Lord disprove this as well as other scriptures. However, partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Life I believe refers not to eating a literal fruit granting immortality but rather our salvation through Christ’s passion on the Cross.

Eros is lust so I guess the authors used ἐπιθυμία rather than eros. But I am limited in Greek.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't believe I have so much as implied otherwise. I was speaking of the health of the messages we give, not of the health of sexual actions taken.

Indeed and I respect you for that.


Except that the testimony of others is that such ministry is indeed often unsafe and unsound. The person praying might not have manipulated, the but the person being prayed for has often been brought to the point of making the request after many years of being manipulated etc. and the act of praying reinforces and entrenches all the evil messages that person has received. This is what I meant when I said that we need to take into account the context in which we minister; there is no gay person who comes for prayer, who has not been harmed by the messages "out there" about their rejection by God etc. We need to be careful not to legitimise those messages even by implication.

I agree that such ministry is often unsafe, however, there are numerous cases where the person sincerely desires it and has not been manipulated it. I outlined the safety protocols I would take in providing such a prayer, which include making sure the person has not been manipulated, that they earnestly desire metanoia, that they are not suicidal, and furthermore referring them to an Orthodox psychiatrist.

As for the evil messages, it is unfortunately the case that some people say evil things to those suffering from sexual perversion. This includes threatening them with hellfire, shunning them and attempting to shame them into repentance. However, it is God that has decreed that homosexuality is a perversion, by destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, by forbidding it in the Torah, and by warning, if we read the Pauline epistles in context, that the unrepentant homosexual will not inherit the Kingdom of God. So it is also evil to say to a homosexual that it is acceptable for them to engage in sexual relations with anyone other than a spouse of the opposite sex who they married lawfully. We do not have the right to change the inspired Scriptures based on changing cultural values, or to ignore the parts we dislike, as some liberal clergy advocate, for example, Rev. Jeremy, whose last name I forget, of First Methodist Church in Seattle, as I am sure you agree.

Furthermore, you previously stated that praying for the deliverance of a person from the passion of lust, and the monastic practice thereof, is not conversion therapy. The only difference between that and what I propose should be lawful is the addition of a prayer, at their request, that they be able to relate to women with sexual attraction, which cannot be considered evil, because, logically, if we agree that homosexual relations are unhealthy, praying that someone who is not attracted to women but wants to be is, ceteris paribus, a good thing.

The real menace are the non-denominational megachurches which preach messages of hellfire and damnation towards homosexuals, which contribute to the already increased risk of suicide. Remember, a great many homosexuals were the victims of paedophilia or else are in a situation, such as a long prison sentence or life without parole, where relations with women are not possible, or were in such a situation. For example, military officers, particularly naval officers on surface ships, who spend a great deal of time at sea, often reason that they cannot have a normal family life and the best thing they can do is to take a homosexual lover. This also applies to a lesser extent to enlisted ranks, but is more of a thing with people in a military career, such as NCOs, warrant officers and especially commissioned officers. Also, men who are persistently the victims of mistreatment by women and vice versa will often turn to the same sex. Because of this semi-involuntary environmental aspect, homosexuals are at increased risk of suicide.

The Holy Spirit does convict us of sin, and that applies to homosexuals, but God being infinitely merciful will not allow a situation where His actions by themselves induce suicide.

And we do have numerous cases where people have successfully overcome homosexual passions and subsequently developed healthy heterosexual relations with women leading to marriage, which does disprove the idea that all attempts to assist with this are inherently harmful.

I need to see the data you have on conversion therapy to see how they defined it and whether or not they factored in such things as Eastern Orthodox monasticism. Many studies ignore the Eastern church because surprisingly few Western Christians know anything about it; most who have heard of it are only vaguely aware of it and regard it as something impossibly exotic and culturally different. That is why in the endless and infinitely annoying flamewars between Roman Catholics and Protestants on this forum we frequently see a failure to mention the Eastern churches, whether Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or the Church of the East, which by degrees are each substantially more obscure than most denominations in the West. And people who have heard of them often think that, for example, Greek Orthodoxy and Russian Orthodoxy are different religions.
 
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