Book Bannings

Margaret3110 · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
This article should answer your question: BANNED: The Bluest Eye | American Experience | PBS

It doesn't actually answer my question.

That's great that some of her students felt able to come forward about their traumatic experiences as a result of the book. However, a different child might have a totally different experience, including being retraumatized, and these kids would likely not speak up about it.

Edited to add that I'm trying not to get personal here, but I am speaking from my own experience. Save books like this for college.

SamanthaAnastasia · Apr 6, 2022

All of y’all in favor of censorship are just…yikes.
One hand you’re clutching your pearls at being “censored” that public school libraries don’t have Christian books yet on the other demanding censorship of things you don’t like.
Oh, the irony.

tobyw · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
We have seen an increase in the efforts by some to ban books in school and public libraries. These current efforts are largely led by conservatives who want to remove books that address such issues as LGBTQ and race.

Do people still go to libraries to get their information? Outside of academia. I'd have thought it's all about Google on your phone now.

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Why shouldn't 120 days of Sodom be ready for consumption at a library or anywhere else for that matter? I would think it's because we have certain standards but then if we have standards and are going to say inappropriate contentographic material is forbidden, te library is not free. We are imposing a value judgement that plenty of sexual revolutionaries would be against. They would complain that their text that they revere is being unfairly displaced. What then? Either the standard holds or it falters. In much the same way with conservatives accepting or removing certain books, either they are allowed to have their standards or they are not.

Obviously you are not a librarian because you are confusing collection development with book banning. Deciding not to add a book to the collection because it doesn’t fit the library’s focus is different than removing a book because some object to it. If you want to discuss collection development I suggest you start a thread on that topic. Not purchasing a inappropriate contentographic book for a school library is collection development. Removing Harry Potter from the collection because parents object to claiming it promotes witchcraft is book banning.

Are the Nazi's history's best known book banners? Certainly prominent from a certain political perspective which views those who ban books as similar, but the most known?

The Nazis had public book burnings such as the one depicted in Indiana Jones. The Communists and certain Christians banned books, but usually without the public spectacle. Books simply disappeared from libraries after the Communists took over in Russia. I stand by my statement.

The Communists regulated the books and content their populations consume. Before them, Christians did much the same to prevent dissident material getting out there. Even in today's democratic societies certain books and views are not permitted to be shown. It does a disservice to paint the picture as so one sided and neglect that all societies have engaged in censorship, to one degree or another.

I never said that others have not engaged in such censorship, did I? I simply said that the Nazis were the leading example.

A trained librarian? What would that entail in terms of book selection? What standards are you advocating be used that are neutral and free of bias? There are none.

Trained librarians? You do realize that a Master of Library Science (MLS) or equivalent degree is usually required for librarians in the US, don’t you? Of course there can be other requirements—I was required to have both an MLS and a JD because I was an academic law librarian. Learning collection development standards is part of that degree.

Your standards are different from the Conservative Christian's standards and thus would prevent the latter from implementing their own.

And I would expect that the collection development standards at a parochial school would be different from a public school, but again that is a different topic.

You certaintly wouldn't want to see in education, libraries or other venues of learning and influence an equal access to the dissident authors I would read.

I wouldn’t? I was a law librarian. My library included such material. We would have had dissident authors as long as they were law related (our library’s focus).

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

tobyw said:
Do people still go to libraries to get their information? Outside of academia. I'd have thought it's all about Google on your phone now.

Actually print books have made a comeback. People might use Google for research, but Books remain in use.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
Obviously you are not a librarian because you are confusing collection development with book banning. Deciding not to add a book to the collection because it doesn’t fit the library’s focus is different than removing a book because some object to it. If you want to discuss collection development I suggest you start a thread on that topic. Not purchasing a inappropriate contentographic book for a school library is collection development. Removing Harry Potter from the collection because parents object to claiming it promotes witchcraft is book banning.

The Nazis had public book burnings such as the one depicted in Indiana Jones. The Communists and certain Christians banned books, but usually without the public spectacle. Books simply disappeared from libraries after the Communists took over in Russia. I stand by my statement.

I never said that others have not engaged in such censorship, did I? I simply said that the Nazis were the leading example.

Trained librarians? You do realize that a Master of Library Science (MLS) or equivalent degree is usually required for librarians in the US, don’t you? Of course there can be other requirements—I was required to have both an MLS and a JD because I was an academic law librarian. Learning collection development standards is part of that degree.

And I would expect that the collection development standards at a parochial school would be different from a public school, but again that is a different topic.

I wouldn’t? I was a law librarian. My library included such material. We would have had dissident authors as long as they were law related (our library’s focus).

If the parents of any given school decide they don't want Harry Potter in their school library, what gives you the right to force Harry Potter on them?

Nazis are not the leading example. They are but one example and hardly the most prominent given that their history was less than thirty years, when compared to the two thousand year old tradition of Christians censoring views and books that were found impermissible. Book burning is not the only way to remove books. Libraries and their contents aren't even particularly relevant. What matters more in the general society is the curriculum students are taught and what books they will be forced to learn from. This has far more impact on people.

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If the parents of any given school decide they don't want Harry Potter in their school library, what gives you the right to force Harry Potter on them?

How is anyone forcing Harry Potter or any other book on anyone? What you are saying makes no sense. The book is on the shelf. No one is being forced to read it.

Nazis are not the leading example. They are but one example and hardly the most prominent given that their history was less than thirty years, when compared to the two thousand year old tradition of Christians censoring views and books that were found impermissible. Book burning is not the only way to remove books.

And, again, the Nazis were the most prominent. I stand by what I said.

Libraries and their contents aren't even particularly relevant.

Many would disagree with you.

What matters more in the general society is the curriculum students are taught and what books they will be forced to learn from. This has far more impact on people.

But that isn’t what we are discussing here. Please go back and read the OP. If you want to discuss books used in the classroom feel free to start a new thread.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
How is anyone forcing Harry Potter or any other book on anyone? What you are saying makes no sense. The book is on the shelf. No one is being forced to read it.

Are you fine with Parents removing Harry Potter then if they don't want their children exposed to it? You're the one who gave the example and it seems it was intended to say that of course schools should have Harry Potter and the parents should be ignored.

But if you don't want to force schools, libraries or other public institutions to have certain books, what is your problem with conservatives removing books you approve of?

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Are you fine with Parents removing Harry Potter then if they don't want their children exposed to it? You're the one who gave the example and it seems it was intended to say that of course schools should have Harry Potter and the parents should be ignored.

But if you don't want to force schools, libraries or other public institutions to have certain books, what is your problem with conservatives removing books you approve of?

Of course I would be opposed to parents having Harry Potter removed. Have you read the thread? That is what it is about.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
Of course I would be opposed to parents having Harry Potter removed. Have you read the thread? That is what it is about.

Then you would force the parents to keep Harry Potter in the library right? Against the will of the parents despite, lets say for the sake of the argument, a majority agreeing with removing it? What gives you that right over others and their children?

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Then you would force the parents to keep Harry Potter in the library right? Against the will of the parents despite, lets say for the sake of the argument, a majority agreeing with removing it?

If it is removed, what do the kids who want to read it and whose parents do not object to it do?

And actually there are few if any cases where a majority of the parents want a book removed. Usually it is a vocal minority.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
If it is removed, what do the kids who want to read it and whose parents do not object to it do?

They leave the school and find another or read it in their homes.

Unless you want to advocate the minority dictating to the majority.

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
They leave the school and find another or read it in their homes.

Unless you want to advocate the minority dictating to the majority.

So people should have to move. Of course. Why didn’t I think of that?

What is being “dictated.” No one is being forced to read the book.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
What is being “dictated.” No one is being forced to read the book.

You are dictating the terms. You are forcing the body to have a book they do not want and have agreed in the majority to get rid of. Here you have two competing claims which cannot be reconciled. That book being there is a defeat to the team which would remove it, and a victory to your team that would see it remain there so children can read it.

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You are dictating the terms. You are forcing the body to have a book they do not want and have agreed in the majority to get rid of. Here you have two competing claims which cannot be reconciled. That book being there is a defeat to the team which would remove it, and a victory to your team that would see it remain there so children can read it.

But there is nothing that can’t be reconciled here. No one is being forced to read the book. Why can’t you figure that out?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
But there is nothing that can’t be reconciled here. No one is being forced to read the book. Why can’t you figure that out?

But they don't want the book there and you are insisting they keep it there. Why do they have to have it? What are you willing to do if they are insistent on getting rid of it or not accepting other books you want in the school library?

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
But they don't want the book there and you are insisting they keep it there. Why do they have to have it? What are you willing to do if they are insistent on getting rid of it or not accepting other books you want in the school library?

Explain to me what is wrong with having the book there? And, again, in the cases I have studied it is always a vocal minority, never a majority, who want to have a book removed.

Margaret3110 · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
But there is nothing that can’t be reconciled here. No one is being forced to read the book.

OK, but on the other hand, it's not that hard to obtain a book outside of school ... there are city libraries, bookstores, online, etc. Putting it in a school library suggests that this is something we want and encourage our children of that age to read - does it not? It reflects our values. No one is suggesting making the possession of a book illegal, as far as I'm aware.

(I personally have no problem with Harry Potter ... but if my son wanted to read it and it wasn't in his school library, I would just check it out from the regular library or buy it.)

Archivist · Apr 6, 2022

Margaret3110 said:
OK, but on the other hand, it's not that hard to obtain a book outside of school ... there are city libraries, bookstores, online, etc. Putting it in a school library suggests that this is something we want and encourage our children of that age to read - does it not? It reflects our values. No one is suggesting making the possession of a book illegal, as far as I'm aware.

(I personally have no problem with Harry Potter ... but if my son wanted to read it and it wasn't in his school library, I would just check it out from the regular library or buy it.)

Not everyone has access to public libraries, nor can everyone afford to buy a copy.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 6, 2022

Archivist said:
Explain to me what is wrong with having the book there? And, again, in the cases I have studied it is always a vocal minority, never a majority, who want to have a book removed.

Nothing is wrong with having Harry Potter there in my opinion. But if a majority of any group decided they didn't want it in an institution they control, why does my will get to dictate to them what I might prefer? This is a hypothetical, not a real scenario, but the point is to get across that localities should be able to decide for themselves what materials they want in the schools or institutions they are in control of.

I see no general principal why any group as to admit material it thinks is detrimental.

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