Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

Saint Steven said:

It shouldn't be that difficult to see God the Father as something other than a barbaric and sadistic tyrant.

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I agree, it shouldn't be that difficult, but it can be made difficult if you try really hard.

The meaning of this verse seems to be pretty simple. It says that faith is s gift from God:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

So if you believe ECT you also have to believe in a God who deliberately withholds belief from some knowing so that they will not be saved. What else could this be called other than sadism? But to believe that God follows this policy, you have to deny that He does not delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23, 33:11), that He loves even his enemies (Matthew 5:43-48), and that He wants all people to know the truth and be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)

It shows what a powerful grip ECT can have on your thinking to force anyone to do this.

Hmm said:

Good find. I was wondering what sense ECT makes if we are all created in the image of God and have this divine spark in us. Does God somehow quickly remake us not in His image before throwing us into this supposed eternal hell? In that case,.wouldn't He be punishing a fundamentally different person, which seems pretty unfair on them? Or does He cast us off with the divine spark intact. In that case isn't He punishing Himself forever?

Or is it perhaps that the idea of ECT is nonsensical? Hmm.

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To be alive in "hell," you must have the Spirit of Life in you...even though you're "dead." If you sit back and think about it, God then, is in "hell" forever too. That's close to blasphemy, IMHO. The consequences of "hell" theology are crazy and confusing.

Lazarus Short said:

To be alive in "hell," you must have the Spirit of Life in you...even though you're "dead." If you sit back and think about it, God then, is in "hell" forever too. That's close to blasphemy, IMHO. The consequences of "hell" theology are crazy and confusing.

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Well put. If something is real then the more you look into it, the clearer it becomes because it's part of an orderly universe. God is a rational being and has created an orderly universe that reflects that rationality. But the deeper you look into ECT, the more illogical and bat* crazy it becomes. I've done some research and this craziness becomes apparent about 1mm in.

Saint Steven said:

Reminded me of this one. (king james to thank? - lol)

Psalm 139:8 KJV
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

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I'm sure that should have been rendered as "sheol" or at least as "the grave."

It is interesting that folks are worried about God's honor and satisfying divine wrath, but they don't consider what that says about divine fullness and power. God doesn't need anything from us, there is nothing to satisfy. It's all Grace from start to finish, but folks act like God set out to create a good creation and then things got out of hand. The irony of those who assert divine sovereignty and then an ECT conclusion is that God failed in power. It's a self-defeating position. God is sovereign and God fails in what God creates.

ETA: Sorry to just step in, y'all. I was reading and had a thought lol.

public hermit said:

ETA: Sorry to just step in, y'all. I was reading and had a thought lol.

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You're welcome - as you have probably gathered, this thread is for ALL, not just for SOME!

And your typical clarity of thought is especially welcome.

Saint Steven said:

That's a good point.

I believe revenge is a sin. We probably shouldn't be accusing God of it. As if he could do something we are commanded not to, but it's acceptable behavior for God, because he's God and he can do as he pleases.

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They think justice is achieved by punishment if repayment cannot be made. Anselm and Calvin both argued that either repayment is made or punishment. Punishment secures repayment because it subjects humanity, which means we are once again put in our proper place. It's about as toxic a conception of God as one could want.

The thing they miss in holding that position is that no forgiveness or grace is possible under those circumstances. It's a pound of flesh for a pound of flesh. It's a gross approach to understanding God's ways, and it is transferred to how Christians treat others. If punishment is good for God, it's good enough for us. Reconciliation is for sissies.

Justice is achieved when life flourishes. Christus Victor

Hmm said:

You're welcome - as you have probably gathered, this thread is for ALL, not just for SOME!

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It is a strange impulse to insist exclusion is part and parcel of all things being in God. But, we'll see. I want to err on the side of divine sovereignty and love. I feel like that's a good bet.

Ro 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
(NAS95)

public hermit said:

It is a strange impulse to insist exclusion is part and parcel of all things being in God.

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Yes. Maybe part of it is that it makes us feel that were doing something right (because others are doing something wrong), and we all like to feel that we're doing the right thing. But this is saying that our faith is meritorious so indifferent to saying our works save us.

If revenge is a sin, how do we define "the wrath of God"? I would use the word perfect but being imperfect I cannot comprehend it's full meaning, so I must revert to the word faith if I even understand it's meaning. As to someone being turned of by Gods wrath, I am sure He can handle perfectly as well.