John 3:16 mistranslation

Spiritual Jew said:

Peter said the Lord bought the false prophets and teachers that he referenced in 1 Peter 2:1. What do you think that means?

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I'd like to know where you got this from:
"the Lord bought the false prophets and teachers"

Spiritual Jew said:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus died for the false prophets and false teachers Peter mentioned here, but they chose to deny Him. So, they are not saved. Very simple.

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2 Peter is the only place--besides Luke and Paul--that uses the Greek word translated as heresy ... in fact, all of its derivatives come from them...

hairesis = from haireomai; properly, a choice, i.e. (specially) a party or (abstractly) disunion:--heresy (which is the Greek word itself), sect.

Jesus never taught His Apostle Peter that there was such a thing as a "false teacher", because there IS only one Teacher: Christ... according to Matthew 23:8-10... which was said to all of the Galilean Discipled-Apostles.

There were several Peters, back in the day... that one has the spelling "Simeon" Petros... rather than "Simon" Petros. Luke and Paul frequently used different words, which came from a semitic language or were unused by the Galileans.

Cockalorum said:

most people use John 3:16 to say everybody will be saved, when in reality the text says "The believing all" (the elect) will have eternal life. Their names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, and Jesus Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8

It is important to get the correct translation

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Excellent thread.

They actually hinge that "everbody" thought upon the word "world". But the world is Kosmos... meaning the orderly world. Not the chaos which always exists apart from law and order. The world itself rocks on its foundation because mankind is reordering what God has created. They don't trust Him, so they think it's up to them to fix things. The things they're fixing now is the result of their previous fixes.

The other hinge is the meaning of the word "believe". If you trust someone you don't go against what they've told you. That's the whole reason for God saying this:

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.LXX

What does it mean to go after other gods? The simple fact is that without the underlying Greek, the Bible itself is able to be twisted beyond all recognition.
When "classical education" fell by the wayside, mankind became less and less intelligent regarding the Master's design. And so they heaped up teachers upon teachers to fill that void, not remembering that Jesus spoke to the little children of the One Flock who would only ever hear the One Shepherd.

Ancient Israel fell because of this same crime against God. Moses was chosen as a go-between... and so Moses allowed things because of their hard-hearts. And they were tested by the Earth altar vs the stone altar... and they were allowed kings.
But Jesus says there is no go-between... that He Himself enters through the door, because He is the door. All others who go above/before/in-front-of Him are robbers... which you wouldn't even know without the Greek John 10.

Cockalorum said:

Jesus died for his sheep. not for the entire world John 10:15

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John 15:13-14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham wouldn't have really believed God if He hadn't taken Isaac to the sacrificial altar. It wasn't some metaphysical imputation at hand, but a real reckoning to his account was done by God only because he did what God commanded.

That same conditional thing happens here:

Genesis 17 1 And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, I am thy God, be well-pleasing before Me and be blameless, 2 and I will establish My Covenant between Me and thee, and I will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke to him, saying, 4 And I, behold! My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of a multitude of nations. 5 And thy name shall no more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraam, for I have made thee a father of many nations. 6 And I will increase thee very exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish My Covenant between thee and thy seed after thee, to their generations, for an Everlasting Covenant, to be thy God, and the God of thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give to thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou sojournest, even all the land of Chanaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them a God. 9 And God said to Abraam, Thou also shalt fully keep My covenant, thou and thy seed after thee for their generations. 10 And this is the Covenant which thou shalt fully keep between Me and you, and between thy seed after thee for their generations; every male of you shall be circumcised.LXX

It's conditional, this Covenant of Promise. No man will enter the Promised Land without having fully kept this Covenant.

Genesis 17:12 And the child of eight days old shall be circumcised by you, every male throughout your generations, and the servant born in the house and he that is bought with money, of every son of a stranger, who is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and My Covenant shall be on your flesh for an Everlasting Covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male, who shall not be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin on the eighth day, that soul shall be utterly destroyed from its family, for he has broken My Covenant.

The chosen and faithful 144k will keep this Commandment.

Cockalorum said:

"Whosoever" has been mistranslated. The original greek text says πas O' or Pas O' means "The All" Believing is a participle, a participle is an adjective modifies nouns and pronouns so the participle Believing modifies all since all is a pronoun what the text should say is "The believing all"

"The believing all" will not perish but have everlasting life, is what the text says. it isn't everyone in the whole world that is saved but "The believing all".

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You're misreading the text. This verse doesn't teach universalism. Here's the relevant phrase in several translations:


There's no universalism here, and no mistranslation requiring an improvement. It simply teaches that every single person who believes will be accepted.

Cockalorum said:

my Life experience in dealing with Christians, the moment I bring up biblical truth about election and predestination they throw John 3:16 at me to say Jesus died for the whole world

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I think you misunderstood the argument of arminians. They do not use J 3:16 to argue that all will be saved, but to argue that faith is what saves (instead of election/predestination).

They argue in the way "whoever believes will be saved, i.e. anybody can believe and be saved".

Cockalorum said:

my Life experience in dealing with Christians, the moment I bring up biblical truth about election and predestination they throw John 3:16 at me to say Jesus died for the whole world

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Jesus did die for the whole world.

-CryptoLutheran

Cockalorum said:

no he did not and Jesus makes this clear he died for his sheep not the whole world. John 10:11-16

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These aren't mutually exclusive statements.

Try again.

-CryptoLutheran

Cockalorum said:

no he did not and Jesus makes this clear he died for his sheep not the whole world. John 10:11-16

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Isaiah 53:6: “All we, like sheep, have gone astray, we have each of us turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5

14 For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

1 John 2:1-2

“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an Advocate before the Father — Jesus Christ, the Righteous. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Cockalorum said:

those verses are not proof of Universalism. There is no biblical proof or support for universalism whatsoever, if everybody was saved then nobody would go to hell, Jesus would be a big time liar, and everyones name would be found in the book of life rendering judgement meaningless.

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Those verses were not being offered as proof of Universalism.

If you're going to participate in these discussions, ... it would help if you got your terminology straight ...

Cockalorum said:

Salvation is not universal, in fact universalism is contrary to Bible and not the gospel at all. Salvation is selective and specific. Salvation is specifically limited to:

• those who are the elect (Matthew 24:31; 2 Timothy 2:10, 19; Titus 1:1-3; 1 Peter 1:1-3), chosen since before the beginning of the world (Ephesians 1:3-12), and predestined for salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; 1 Peter 2:7-9)
• those who are chosen (Matthew 22:14; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4-10; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17; James 2:5; Revelation 17:14)
• those who are appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48)
• those who heard the word of salvation and believed (John 5:24; Ephesians 1:13)
• those who believe (Luke 18:14; John 1:11-13; 3:16, 18; 36; 11:25-26; Romans 10:11; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16; 3:22-26; 1 Timothy 1:16; Hebrews 3:19; 6:12; 11:1-40; 1 Peter 1:5; 2:6; 1 John 5:5; etc.)
• those on whom God has mercy (Romans 9:18)
• those whom God calls to himself (Acts 2:39; Romans 1:5-6; 8:30; Hebrews 9:15; Revelation 17:14)
• those to whom it is granted by God (2 Peter 1:3-4)
• those who are known by Jesus (Matthew 7:23)
• those for whom a place has been prepared (Matthew 20:23; Mark 10:40)
• those to whom the truth is revealed (Luke 10:21-24)
• those who receive Him (John 1:12; Revelation 3:20-21)
• those who are born again (John 3:4-8; 1 Peter 1:3)
• those to whom Jesus gives life (John 5:21)
• those whose eyes have not been blinded by God (John 12:39-40) or their minds hardened (2 Corinthians 3:14-18)
• those who do not reject salvation (Hebrews 2:3) or harden their hearts (Hebrews 3:7-15)
• those who were given to Jesus (John 17:2, 6, 9, 10, 24)
• those who call on the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13)
• those who received the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:11)
• those who persevere in the faith (Matthew 10:22; Romans 11:17-24; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Colossians 1:21-23; 2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrews 3:14)
• those whose names are in the “book of life” (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 13:8-9; 17:8; 20:15)
• those who are not deluded and thus condemned (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)
• those who confess Jesus (Romans 10:9; 1 John 4:15)
• those who have the Son (1 John 5:10-12)
• those who do not deny Christ and are thus not designated for condemnation (Jude 4,5)
• those who are faithful (Revelation 2:10; 17:14)
• those who repent (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30-31; 1 John 1:9)
• those who love God (Deuteronomy 7:9; Romans 8:28; James 2:5)
• those who love others (1 Corinthians 13:2-3; Galatians 5:6; 1 John 4:12, 20, 21)
• those who enter through the narrow way (Matthew 7:12-14)
• those who do not deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of truth (Hebrews 10:26-27)
• those who have not rejected God the Father (Romans 1:18-32), God the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29), or God the Son (John 3:36; John 8:24)
• those who are obedient (Deuteronomy 7:9; Deuteronomy 9:16-18; Nehemiah 1:5; Psalm 25:10; Psalm 103; 11-19; Ezekiel 18; Matthew 5:19-20; Matthew 6:19-21; Matthew 7:16-27; Matthew 10:38; Matthew 12:36-37; Matthew 12:50; Matthew 13:36-43; Matthew 16:25-27; Matthew 18:23-35; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 8:34-35; Luke 6:46-49; Luke 10:25-37; Luke 11:28; John 5:29; John 8:51; John 14:21-24; John 15:1-6, 10, 14; Acts 5:32; Romans 1:18; Romans 2:1-16; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:13; Romans 14:17-18; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Corinthians 7:19; 1 Corinthians 9:24-27; Galatians 5:19-21; 6:7-9; Ephesians 5:3-14; Philippians 2:12-18; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Timothy 2:21-22; Titus 1:16; Hebrews 3:6-18; Hebrews 10:36; Hebrews 12:14-17; James 1:12-15; James 2:17-26; 1 Peter 1:22; 1 Peter 2:1-2; 1 Peter 4:17-19; 2 Peter 1:10-11; 1 John 1:6-7; 1 John 2:29; 1 John 3:16-24; 1 John 5:2-3; Jude 1:7; Revelation 2:2-11; Revelation 3:8-12; Revelation 21:5-9, 27; Revelation 22:14-19)

Other points:

• Not even everyone who calls Jesus “Lord” enters the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21; James 2:19).
• Jesus said He would give his life for "many." Many does not equal all (Mark 10:45).
• A certain type of sin is unforgivable (Mark 3:28-29). Theologians teach that the unforgivable sin is a willful and continual rejection of God.
• Resurrection to damnation cannot be universalism (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 18:9; John 5:28-29; Jude 7; etc.).
• Everlasting destruction cannot be universalism (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10).
• Eternal fire for those cursed cannot be universalism (Matthew 25:41).
• The wrath of God against unrighteousness cannot be universalism (Romans 1:18).
• The fiery lake of burning sulfur cannot be universalism (Revelation 21:8).
• Resisting or betraying Jesus is said to lead to a curse worse than if he had never been born (Mark 14:21). Such a curse cannot be universalism.
• The “road to destruction” cannot be universalism (Matthew 7:13-14).

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I haven't argued for universalism. I've argued for universal atonement. Very different.

I'm curious: How do you interpret passages like Romans 5:18, 1 Timothy 4:10, and Romans 11:32?

-CryptoLutheran

Cockalorum said:

most people use John 3:16 to say everybody will be saved, when in reality the text says "The believing all" (the elect) will have eternal life. Their names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, and Jesus Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8

It is important to get the correct translation

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I've never heard traditional doctrine use John 3:16 "to say everybody will be saved." Universal salvation is a radical fringe.

Cockalorum said:

It is important to get the correct translation, "The believing all" is not Whosoever

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How long have you study Ancient Greek?