Self-righteousness vs Humility

James_Lai said:

Jesus is about what He wants us to do and what to believe in.

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. . . in sharing with God and how He has us succeeding in His peace and joy.

James_Lai said:

this phrase means nothing, really.

There’s a very clear teaching of Jesus, so the response is either do or don’t. Can’t hide from it even behind vague wordings…

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But it is clear how God wants us to succeed at doing what Jesus says, while we are sharing with Him in His joy and peace.

Jesus says what He wants is possible with God.

"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (in Matthew 19:26)

So, we are offering that He means that what He desires is not possible with humans, but with God. And with God includes in sharing with Him in us.

And trusting in Jesus includea sharing with Him in His own peace and joy > "My peace", He says in John 14:27, and "My joy", in John 15:11 and John 17:13.

James_Lai said:

I disagree that Jesus teaching is complicated and prone to all sorts of understanding of I understand you correctly.

I think it’s mostly very simple and clear, the problem lays with people because they don’t want to accept and follow it, but they still want to be associated with Him. So they invent all kinds of workarounds… I don’t like it at all. Be or don’t be.

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Well, if what you're saying is true and the teachings of Jesus are neither complicated, nor prone to "all sorts of misunderstanding(s)," and they do not present any kind of difficulty to a person in the least existentiallly, then why do you think we have so many folks these days who not only avoid becoming Christian but we also see Christians becoming "former" Christians and leaving Jesus far behind?

Moreover, if you're correct, then the fact Christians feel the need to publish various hermeneutical and exegetical books is a more or less useless thing to do, right? As far as this goes, even at the moment I have a book sitting right here on my desk titled, "The Hard Sayings of the Bible" by Walter C. Kaiser Jr., Peter H. Davids, F.F. Bruce and Manfred T. Brauch. Maybe I should just toss such a piece of literature in the trash (along with 30 other books on Hermeneutics and Exegesis that I have)?

No, we'll just have to rationally disagree with each other on this point, James. While you're correct to say that following Jesus is something we either do or we don't, this truism (and it is a mere truism) doesn't explain nor cancel out the various kinds of difficulties we all have to face day in and day out in order to "be" and remain a Christian.

It’s honesty. I can’t live how Jesus said I need to live, I’m not ready. I hear Him. I can’t commit to something I’m not going to do, it’s dishonesty.

The whole point is that no one can live like Jesus said without the help that Jesus provides.

Paul captured some of the frustration that comes from trying to go good without help from God in Romans chapter 7.

The Jews were promised a kingdom with a new covenant that included them being "clanged" so that they could keep the law. The nation failed to receive the kingdom at that time, but will in the future.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Today Christians have the opportunity to move in a direction towards the perfection of Jesus with the help of His Spirit.

This is not very discernible to those without the Spirit.

It sounds like you expect Christianity to be digital;

I don’t like it at all. Be or don’t be.

The Christian life is analog as it is expected and hoped that we would grow and mature;

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

James_Lai said:

Yes, most of the literature is not about Jesus, but opinions of religious thought about Him. Along the path of avoiding Him but still making appearance of listening to Him

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Which literature are you referring to? Because while it might be the case that my books on hermeneutics and exegesis could be deserving of the fire, I'm quite sure they aren't about having opinions of thought about Jesus but rather how to pay attention to literary, cultural and linguistic critical studies of the texts themselves.

Are you familiar with hermeneutics and exegesis as fields of scholarship? I'm just wondering because your statement doesn't match the 'type' of literature I'm referring to. So, I have to be skeptical of your evaluation here.

James_Lai said:

Okay the methodology of approaching texts yes it’s very good material.

What I meant was, the interpretations involved.

But yes I do see how certain teachings could be interpreted in different ways. Though I don’t see as much room for interpretation as people give themselves freedom to. It runs rampant.

Or even bigger problem is pick and chose, cut and paste approach. What I like I accept, what I don’t like I don’t accept and explain away…

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How about this: I 'like' none of it, for whatever that word actually does mean in any one case, and I'm ONLY going to give as much credance to ANY religious texts in our lowly, wartorn, naturally inhospitable world as I can muster through academic level research and critical thinking.

And I intend to impress upon the seeming masochistic allusion that I say it should be "hopefully painstaking" ... because mental pain in the area of research through which we challenge our biases as much as possible [and we all have them] is the approach that, existentially speaking, is the one that I think pushes us toward epistemological integrity, whether we like it or not. Life burns us, whether we like it or not.

James_Lai said:

Read what Jesus says, then analyze what Christians believe in and practice. Not the same thing!

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Lotta' vacuous generalization with no meaning or support. . .

I'm thinking you do not correctly understand Christianity and condemn others for not following your misunderstanding of it.

James_Lai said:

Yes. But before you get into existential understanding, ideals vs reality, goals vs costs etc consideration, the first question is, do you truly accept this way knowing what it means and what it requires of you? I read Jesus, and so all the multiple versions of distortions and primitivizations to adapt to current situations and to current people are mind-blowing… It hurts

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You need to read more of the epistles to truly understand the meaning of Christianity.
You're on the outside looking in, not a good position for correct understanding.

James_Lai said:

I reas Jesus in the Gospel, and it has nothing to do with truism, because a minute tiny minority accept Him as He is and what He says often goes against how people view themselves and the society.

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Yeah, but that's not what you were focusing on previously. Sure, Jesus said the gate is narrow and few there be who enter that way.

So as the result, Christianity rejects His simple and clear teaching and invents a thousand and one way to avoid Him while pretending they hear Him.

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Ok. So, if I understand you right, then the "tiny minority who accepts Jesus" isn't Christianity? Those few are --- some other religious thing? What is "Christianity" then?

My apologies, but I'm not sure I follow you in this line of thinking, James. Maybe you need to requalify your assertion a little bit to avoid the denotative inconsistencies?

James_Lai said:

Hello.
I’ve been to many many churches and met many Christians. Why is it that 99% of Christianity or more is the opposite of Jesus’ teaching?

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I've been off the forum for a week or two, mostly because you, James, were not posting. So thanks for giving me something worthwhile to read and respond to.

I agree with the percentage, but disagree on the word "opposite". I would use the word "skewed" to indicate that the great majority of professed Christians do not fully internalize nor apply the teachings of Jesus. Why? Perhaps because those teachings are difficult, and it is easier and more acceptable to take the well traveled road with everyone else, rather than to strike out into the unknown with Jesus, to be different, as Christians must be. Or maybe because most Christians do not really get the message, they don't understand what Jesus is truly asking of us. Another could be that immersing oneself in liturgy prayer, song, rites, rituals, symbols and icons makes one feel Christian, while really living the Gospel would put us at odds with most of our family, friends, and most other "Christians", as Jesus pointed out to those who wished to follow him.

I have known very few true Christians in my lifetime. I know I am not there yet, but still working on it. I can think of a handful of people over my many decades who I would say actually followed the Gospel as close as one humanly can. One of those was a Catholic nun, who was my spiritual guide for more than a half century and who I now consider my guardian angel. But another was someone who was Lutheran. Both of them and perhaps a couple of others were beacons of light enlightening me as to what it meant to be a disciple of the Christ, and who illuminated the path I took and am still taking.

Of course, James, you will get pushback on this as most of us don't want to have the light of truth shining on our own faults and failures. To me, however, it is as easy as reading the Gospels and what Jesus commanded us to do if we wanted to be his followers. Then to look around you, and observe the people in your community, your friends and family, the members of your church, and at the overall secularism of our culture and world. Then ask: How do they, and I, measure up to how Jesus showed us and told us to live? The answer is clear to those with ears to hear, and eyes to see.

The header on your post is a great summary. A lot of self-righteousness but very little humility in evidence among today's Christians.

Martinius said:

I've been off the forum for a week or two, mostly because you, James, were not posting. So thanks for giving me something worthwhile to read and respond to.
I agree with the percentage, but disagree on the word "opposite". I would use the word "skewed" to indicate that the great majority of professed Christians do not fully internalize nor apply the teachings of Jesus. Why? Perhaps because those teachings are difficult, and it is easier and more acceptable to take the well traveled road with everyone else, rather than to strike out into the unknown with Jesus, to be different, as Christians must be. Or maybe because most Christians do not really get the message, they don't understand what Jesus is truly asking of us. Another could be that immersing oneself in liturgy prayer, song, rites, rituals, symbols and icons makes one feel Christian, while really living the Gospel would put us at odds with most of our family, friends, and most other "Christians", as Jesus pointed out to those who wished to follow him.

I have known very few true Christians in my lifetime. I know I am not there yet, but still working on it. I can think of a handful of people over my many decades who I would say actually followed the Gospel as close as one humanly can. One of those was a Catholic nun, who was my spiritual guide for more than a half century and who I now consider my guardian angel. But another was someone who was Lutheran. Both of them and perhaps a couple of others were beacons of light enlightening me as to what it meant to be a disciple of the Christ, and who illuminated the path I took and am still taking.

Of course, James, you will get pushback on this as most of us don't want to have the light of truth shining on our own faults and failures. To me, however, it is as easy as reading the Gospels and what Jesus commanded us to do if we wanted to be his followers. Then to look around you, and observe the people in your community, your friends and family, the members of your church, and at the overall secularism of our culture and world. Then ask: How do they, and I, measure up to how Jesus showed us and told us to live? The answer is clear to those with ears to hear, and eyes to see.

The header on your post is a great summary. A lot of self-righteousness but very little humility in evidence among today's Christians.

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One does not understand Jesus' teachings correctly without an understanding of the epistles, which are omitted in this whole discussion.

Clare73 said:

One does not understand Jesus' teachings correctly without an understanding of the epistles, which are omitted in this whole discussion.

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I reference the Gospels because those writings, and only those, contain the actual deeds and words of Jesus. The Epistles are the words of Paul and other writers, well after the time that Jesus was on the Earth. To me, the Gospels contain the core, the essence of what it means to be a disciple. The Epistles certainly elaborate on that, often regarding specific circumstances and places. But they are not the words of Jesus.

On the other hand, some of the Epistles are the earliest Christian writings that we have, and are great commentaries on what was being taught prior to the Gospels being committed to writing. So they do tell us much about how people in some of the early Christian communities (plural, as they were many and varied) were living as disciples.

So I would agree that the Epistles, or at least some of them, are important to getting a fuller picture of the early Christian church, but the Gospels, especially the Synoptics, have primacy. And my general contention is that most of us do not come close to living the Gospel, and that includes me. Unfortunately, many professed Christians don't even make a strong effort to do so. Your signature line quotes this passage: let him who boasts boast in this: that he understands and knows me. I concur, and would add that most people's understanding and knowledge of Jesus is insufficient. They may boast, but it is an empty boast.

Martinius said:

I reference the Gospels because those writings, and only those, contain the actual deeds and words of Jesus. The Epistles are the words of Paul and other writers, well after the time that Jesus was on the Earth. To me, the Gospels contain the core, the essence of what it means to be a disciple. The Epistles certainly elaborate on that, often regarding specific circumstances and places. But they are not the words of Jesus.

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CONTRARE!!!

Jesus wrote nothing.
All we have are his words from those he taught, including Paul who was caught up to the third heaven--the throne of God (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) to receive his doctrine from Jesus Christ, personally (Galatians 1:11-12). He presents the words and teaching of Jesus, just as the others do.

On the other hand, some of the Epistles are the earliest Christian writings that we have, and are great commentaries on what was being taught prior to the Gospels being committed to writing. So they do tell us much about how people in some of the early Christian communities (plural, as they were many and varied) were living as disciples.

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It's not about "how they were living," it's about Jesus' teaching.

So I would agree that the Epistles, or at least some of them, are important to getting a fuller picture of the early Christian church, but the Gospels, especially the Synoptics, have primacy. And my general contention is that most of us do not come close to living the Gospel, and that includes me.

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And my contention is the epistles are as much the teaching of Jesus as are the gospels, and you don't understand the gospels correctly without understanding the epistles. They cannot be separated.

Unfortunately, many professed Christians don't even make a strong effort to do so. Your signature line quotes this passage: let him who boasts boast in this: that he understands and knows me. I concur, and would add that most people's understanding and knowledge of Jesus is insufficient. They may boast, but it is an empty boast.

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And that is a function of the Holy Spirit, not whose words are on the page.

Clare73 said:

CONTRARE!!!

Jesus wrote nothing.
All we have are his words from those he taught, including Paul who was caught up to the third heaven--the throne of God (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) to receive his doctrine from Jesus Christ, personally (Galatians 1:11-12). He presents the words and teaching of Jesus, just as the others do.

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This was to my statement that only the Gospels contain the words of Jesus, and not the Epistles. So I am not sure what the CONTRARE is all about, since Clare73 goes on to say that "Jesus wrote nothing". I agree with that. Everything we get from the mouth of Jesus is, at best, second hand, and may be 3rd or 4th hand.

I am scratching my head over Paul getting "doctrine" from Jesus "personally". According to Acts, Paul received a vision of/from Jesus but was instructed by Ananias and other disciples (Acts 9).

It's not about "how they were living," it's about Jesus' teaching.

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And the teaching of Jesus was about how to live as his disciple. We may be splitting hairs here. Much of what is in Paul's letters is about how disciples in the communities he addressed were doing in following the teachings of Jesus, i.e. how they were living the Gospel. Jesus' words, commandments and teachings are meaningless UNLESS we live them. That is my point, and seems to be what Paul was saying in much of his writing.

And my contention is the epistles are as much the teaching of Jesus as are the gospels, and you don't understand the gospels correctly without understanding the epistles. They cannot be separated.

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Here is where we must depart. I think the Gospels take clear precedence. The Epistles are important but not totally necessary to understanding the Gospels. None of the Gospels were put into writing for several decades after the Resurrection. Paul evangelized and taught at least two decades after the Resurrection. So there was a gap, where disciples had little or nothing in writing, most likely just oral transmissions (and some writings) that were compiled into the Gospels we have today.

Paul addressed his letters to particular communities. Only later, again probably not for a couple of decades, were they circulated more widely. If my memory is correct, the first reference by someone else to a letter of Paul occurs around 90-100 CE. Keep in mind that everything was written and copied by hand. So the various Christian communities in the first century CE were not aware of most of Paul's letters. But they DID hear and eventually had read to them the teachings and stories that comprised the Gospels. Many people became Christians on the strength of what they heard (and that eventually was incorporated into the Gospels) before and without any of the Epistles.

So my contention is that Paul's letters, and the other Epistles, are in essence explanation, commentary, and expansion on what Jesus taught. Sort of like a sermon or homily, Paul was preaching to the faithful, emphasizing what it meant to be a disciple, to keep them on track, or to get them back on track.

The Gospels are sufficient unto themselves to know what it means, and what one must do, to be a disciple of Jesus.

And that is a function of the Holy Spirit, not whose words are on the page.

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This was a response to the paragraph in which I said, "most people's understanding and knowledge of Jesus is insufficient". The problem with this idea is that it places all the responsibility on the Holy Spirit. It is the individual's responsibility to learn and apply what Jesus taught and commanded. We have the option of doing that or not. Most people do try, but in a half-hearted way. I will not blame that on the failure of the Spirit, but rather on the failure of the person to internalize the Gospel message and then apply it to their own lives.

Clare73 is correct in that it is not the function of the "words on the page", but rather that one reads those words and applies those words, seeking guidance from the Spirit.

As in some prior threads, this one has devolved into a two person conversation. No one else is participating, unfortunately. I will not get into endless arguing back and forth, so again I will say that we must agree to disagree. My view of God, of scripture, of faith, and of discipleship is not the same as that of Clare73. Neither of us will convince the other of our position, so let's let it rest and move on.

To Clare73, I appreciate the dialogue, and will pray that you receive all the blessings that God will bestow on you during this season of reflection and penance, as we await the joy of Easter.

Peace and blessings,
Martin