Was John talking about Daniel's prophecy?

Yahudim · Mar 9, 2022

daq said:
That isn't what I said. What I said was that if it is the primary Pesach then he would have been breaking the commandment: therefore it is Pesach Sheni. The author doesn't need to state that it is Pesach Sheni because it is simply called the Pesach in the Torah, (Numbers 9:6-12).

Moreover, for anyone who was not able to observe the primary Pesach, having been away on a far journey, or having been made unclean, etc., etc., Pesach Sheni is indeed the Pesach for that person.

However, if he had already observed the primary Pesach in its appointed time, he does not need to go up to Yerushalem again for Pesach Sheni, and can stay in the Galil, just as he did.

Claiming that I am trying to convince you of something I am not is a strawman. I certainly hope no one ever convinces you that the Master broke or ignored any of the Torah.

Either I misread one of your posts or my brain is turning to mush. The latter is a distinct possibility. :doh:

In any case, you have my sincere apologies if I have offended. That is not something I would ever want to do! :bow:

Behold, I grovel!

That said, I still don't see it.

Y'shua? Too far away? No evidence of that ever...
Unclean? Like the kind that requires a set number of days to reconcile? I can't think of how that could possibly happen! If He touched a dead person they weren't dead! Leprosy? Same result.

So I still don't get it! Nothing personal. But it reminds me of that island in the Caribbean, St. Hapnin.

With love and respect Chaver. I hate it when your mad at me. :hug:

daq · Mar 9, 2022

Phillip Hawley said:
Either I misread one of your posts or my brain is turning to mush. The latter is a distinct possibility. In any case, you have my sincere apologies if I have offended. That is not something I would ever want to do! Behold, I grovel!

That said, I still don't see it.

Y'shua? Too far away? No evidence of that ever...
Unclean? Like the kind that requires a set number of days to reconcile? I can't think of how that could possibly happen! If He touched a dead person they weren't dead! Leprosy? Same result.

So I still don't get it! Nothing personal. But it reminds me of that island in the Caribbean, St. Hapnin.

With love and respect Chaver. I hate it when your mad at me.

No, I'm not mad at all brother, but yeah, it seems you are still missing what I am saying: I am saying that he did observe the primary Pesach in that year, which is why he did not need to go up to Yerushalem in John 6:4, because John 6:4 is a Pesach Sheni, the second Pesach in the second month.

If John 6:4 is Pesach Sheni then all of the issues you raise dissolve because he had already observed the primary Pesach the month before, in the first month, in its appointed time.

Moreover from the midst of Pesach Sheni, (2/17-18), to the midst of Sukkot, (7/17-18), are 150 days or five months, (John 6:4, John 7:14, Genesis 7:11, Genesis 8:4), and of course, because Yom HaKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton in my understanding of the calendar, the seventeenth day of the seventh month is also a Shabbat, (and the ark rested in that day upon the mountains of Ararat, Genesis 8:4).

Yahudim · Mar 9, 2022

daq said:
No, I'm not mad at all brother, but yeah, it seems you are still missing what I am saying: I am saying that he did observe the primary Pesach in that year, which is why he did not need to go up to Yerushalem in John 6:4, because John 6:4 is a Pesach Sheni, the second Pesach in the second month.

If John 6:4 is Pesach Sheni then all of the issues you raise dissolve because he had already observed the primary Pesach the month before, in the first month, in its appointed time.

Moreover from the midst of Pesach Sheni, (2/17-18), to the midst of Sukkot, (7/17-18), are 150 days or five months, (John 6:4, John 7:14, Genesis 7:11, Genesis 8:4), and of course, because Yom HaKippurim is a Shabbat shabbaton in my understanding of the calendar, the seventeenth day of the seventh month is also a Shabbat, (and the ark rested in that day upon the mountains of Ararat, Genesis 8:4).

Maybe I just getting dense with age, but I still do not see that John 6 is referring to the second Pesach. Despite all the context, I still do not see the primary fact that would support that conclusion. Can you say it another way? Is there anything in John 6 that 'nails it down' so to speak? What I see is inconclusive at best.

Y'shua made it clear that He wanted to avoid that crowd because of their unbelief - starting with 6:25. I'm pretty sure that if He wanted to avoid them, He could have. But instead He used it as a teaching moment to further test His talmidim and separate His followers that followed for the wrong reasons - same as the hungry crowd.

When the narrative picks up in chapter 7, He is in the Galil and Sukkot is right around the corner. So again, I don't get it. I suppose it is possible. But I don't find anything solid to hang my hat on...

daq · Mar 11, 2022

Phillip Hawley said:
Maybe I just getting dense with age, but I still do not see that John 6 is referring to the second Pesach. Despite all the context, I still do not see the primary fact that would support that conclusion. Can you say it another way? Is there anything in John 6 that 'nails it down' so to speak? What I see is inconclusive at best.

Y'shua made it clear that He wanted to avoid that crowd because of their unbelief - starting with 6:25. I'm pretty sure that if He wanted to avoid them, He could have. But instead He used it as a teaching moment to further test His talmidim and separate His followers that followed for the wrong reasons - same as the hungry crowd.

When the narrative picks up in chapter 7, He is in the Galil and Sukkot is right around the corner. So again, I don't get it. I suppose it is possible. But I don't find anything solid to hang my hat on...

Shalom Phillip, can we just ignore the problem and tell ourselves that we see nothing solid to hang our hats on? This is why some, like Michael Rood, (with the help of Nehemiah Gordon, in the video that Vis posted), feel the need to find a reason to say that John 6:4 is a later addition and not original to the text.

There is a problem. It needs to be answered if we truly wish to understand. We have a text that says the Pesach was at hand or on hand, and yet, in that passage the Meshiah stays in the Galil and does not go up to Yerushalem for the Pesach.

These are the four basic choices:

1) It is the Pesach and something is wrong.

2) The statement is not original to the text.

3) It is Pesach Sheni and everything is peachy.

4) Just ignore it: nothing to see here.

Filippus · Mar 11, 2022

visionary said:
I found a video that may add some details to this discussion.. Nehemiah was a member for a few years as some of you remember.. PART 4/4 - Does John 6:4 Belong in the New Testament - NehemiasWall.com

He is supporting Michael Rood, who is trying to prove that Jesus's ministry was 490 days long.

Therefore it is critical for Michael Rood to remove one of the Passover's mentioned by the book of John to make his theory work.

The counter argument can be read here,

Should John 6:4 be Considered a Spurious Insertion into John's Gospel?

Shalom

Yahudim · Mar 11, 2022

I do not feel the need to answer Karaites in general, Nehemiah Gordon in particular or Michael Rood ever. Nor do I feel the need to acknowledge a purported problem when I am quite satisfied that the plain meaning of the text does not illustrate one. However, if someone can verify for me that there is actually an issue, wild horses couldn't drag me away.

As things stand, I looked and I did not see any evidence that the Master missed ANY Hag (or pilgrimage) Feast ever. Outside of speculating needlessly, I see no other choice but to take Messiah at His Word and believe, in faith, that He did the right thing according to His Father's instructions. It is a precept that Messiah walk the path of Torah blamelessly.

In closing, my faith is in Him and Our Father in Heaven. It is my choice to be very careful about what lay at the foot of His Throne. Others may consider this a prudent course of action.

daq · Mar 11, 2022

My closing statement concerning these things, and the issue discussed herein concerning John 6:4, is as follows:

Exodus 23:14-17, Exodus 34:22-23, Deuteronomy 16:5-7, Deuteronomy 16:16, 2 Chronicles 6:4-6, 2 Chronicles 8:12-13, 2 Chronicles 12:13.

daq · Mar 20, 2022

visionary said:
I found a video that may add some details to this discussion.. Nehemiah was a member for a few years as some of you remember.. PART 4/4 - Does John 6:4 Belong in the New Testament - NehemiasWall.com

I went back today and watched all three of the first three parts in this series. The patristic evidence cited and discussed seems to be a pretty strong argument.

Filippus · Mar 20, 2022

daq said:
I went back today and watched all three of the first three parts in this series. The patristic evidence cited and discussed seems to be a pretty strong argument.

What about the P66 manuscript?

See below.

daq · Mar 20, 2022

Filippus said:
What about the P66 manuscript?

See below.

Dating manuscripts is generally a tentative thing. That's why the dates given to them are usually in 50 to 100 year increments. Moreover others have argued, (scholars), that the dating for P66 and the other old text of John need to be reexamined. P66 and the other one normally used for that argument, (cannot remember which other one was mentioned in the video series off hand), were touched on in one of the videos.

I have also come to realize that there is a problem with the time of year with John 6:4, which was why I went back and watched the other videos today, the problem being that the feeding of the 5000 takes place in the fall, not the spring, and I was glad to see that they at least briefly touched on that aspect also, (I think that was in the first video if I remember correctly). This aspect really cannot be denied in the Luke version.

Luke 9:12-17 ASV
12 And the day began to wear away; and the twelve came, and said unto him, Send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages and country round about, and lodge, and get provisions: for we are here in a desert place.
13 But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they said, We have no more than five loaves and two fishes; except we should go and buy food for all this people.
14 For they were about five thousand men. And he said unto his disciples, Make them sit down in companies, about fifty each.
15 And they did so, and made them all sit down.
16 And he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake; and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.
17 And they ate, and were all filled: and there was taken up that which remained over to them of broken pieces, twelve baskets

Then they go to Caesarea Philippi: (Matthew 16:13)

Luke 9:18-33 ASV
18 And it came to pass, as he was praying apart, the disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Who do the multitudes say that I am?
19 And they answering said, John the Baptist; but others say, Elijah; and others, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
20 And he said unto them, But who say ye that I am? And Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
21 But he charged them, and commanded them to tell this to no man;
22 saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.
23 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose or forfeit his own self?
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in his own glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up into the mountain to pray.
29 And as he was praying, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became white and dazzling.
30 And behold, there talked with him two men, who were Moses and Elijah;
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

There is no way to separate the statement saying it was about eight days from the things at Caesarea Philippi. This vision takes place at Sukkot, and the likely reason why the authors state that Peter didn't know what he said, beside the fact that they were half asleep, was probably only because he didn't yet realize it was a vision.

Anyway, it's pretty clear that the feeding of the 5000 takes place shortly before Sukkot, leaving just enough time to return to Yerushalem and attend the feast, which is precisely what follows in John 7.

daq · Mar 21, 2022

Originally one of the many aspects of the Greek god Apollo was that he was considered the god of medicine and healing, which remained true, but after some time the myth evolved into his having a son named Asclepius. According to the mythology he then sent his son Asclepius to one named Chiron, ("surgeon"), to learn surgery, medicine, and healing powers of all kinds, and Asclepius was so wise that he quickly surpassed his teacher Chiron, and became the god of healing.

However Apollo retained the title of god of medicine and healing in Greek mythology, and this is important for some of the things already mentioned and discussed in this thread, particularly John 5, and the two pools outside the sheep gate to the north of the northern city wall, and the angel mentioned in John 5 in some manuscripts. The reason I say this is because of the timeline, which in my view now necessitates that John 5 be five months before Sukkot: for this fulfills multiple prophetic statements and time statements from other places in the scripture, (some already mentioned herein if I remember correctly).

What happens in John 5? This is the one miracle the Master did in Yerushalem which caused the rulers to begin seeking death, his death, but also their own: and why? because if you kill, you are essentially spiritually walking dead, having become a murderer. Therefore, when they begin seeking to kill the Messiah, they are seeking not only his death but their own spiritual death: and yet we see that they cannot find death for five months, lol, for he goes away into the Galil, until Sukkot.

Apollyon, (Revelation 9:11), is a word play on Apollo, turning the name of the mythological Greek god of medicine and healing into the Destroyer. The Greek god of John 5:4 is therefore either Apollo or Asclepius, which doesn't really matter either way because Asclepius is the son of Apollo, and for all intents and purposes they are the same, being nothing more than an evolution of the mythology, (however, see Proverbs 15:11, Revelation 1:18, and Revelation 2:23).

From John 5:18 to John 7:19 are therefore most likely five months, (Revelation 9:1-12), and we see that the Master went into the Temple and began to teach in the midst of Sukkot, dividing the feast of Sukkot in half, (John 7:14). These dates are the same as the flood dates: 2/17-18 to 7/17-18, 150 days or five months.

But of course, if one does not believe Yohanne the Immerser is the same Yohanne of the Apokalypse, perhaps none of this will make much sense or appear to be necessary.

Yahudim · Mar 21, 2022

@daq I have a problem with the assumption that this must be in the fall. For instance, in the Spring, the prevailing wind is from the North and East bringing the last vestiges of cool fronts to the area. At night it can become very cool and it is not uncommon to built booths around a shared fire pit. This is basic bushcraft that anyone would know. Just saying. I'm a - p a s h a t - kinda guy...

daq · Mar 22, 2022

Phillip Hawley said:
@daq I have a problem with the assumption that this must be in the fall. For instance, in the Spring, the prevailing wind is from the North and East bringing the last vestiges of cool fronts to the area. At night it can become very cool and it is not uncommon to built booths around a shared fire pit. This is basic bushcraft that anyone would know. Just saying. I'm a - p a s h a t - kinda guy...

Hmmm, well, I didn't quote Luke 9:34-35, Nahum 1:3, Zechariah 14:3-4, or 2 Peter 1:17-18, so how is my reading of Luke 9:12-33 not pashat?

The scripture I cited locks me in on this.

Matthew 16:13-28 ASV
13 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is? [Luke 9:18]
14 And they said, Some say John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. [Luke 9:19]
15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? [Luke 9:20]
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [Luke 9:20]
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ.[Luke 9:21]
21 From that time began Jesus to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up. [Luke 9:22]
22 And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [Luke 9:23]
25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. [Luke 9:24]
26 For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? [Luke 9:25]
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. [Luke 9:26]
28 Verily I say unto you, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. [Luke 9:27]

The context exactly follows the Luke companion passage except that Luke omits the keys of the kingdom portion, Mathew 16:17-19, and the episode of rebuke concerning Peter, Matthew 16:22-23. The Matthew passage, as plainly seen above, ends with the segue statement, Matthew 16:27, leading into the transfiguration event, Matthew 17:1. And what does the very next statement in the Luke companion passage say?

Luke 9:28 ASV
28 And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up into the mountain to pray.

According to the pashat reading of Luke 9 the transfiguration event is a mere eight days after the discourse at Caesarea Philippi. Whether one wants to believe that is in the fall or not, or whether it is right around Sukkot or not, is a different story altogether: but my readings of the verses cited above herein regarding this are also pashat, the plain and simple reading of those texts.

For example Zechariah 14:3-4 says the feet of the Most High will stand upon/over, (על), the mount of Olives, and that passage also makes mention of Sukkot later toward the end of the passage. Nahum 1:3 plainly states that the clouds are the dust of His feet, and that isn't my interpretation or a sod reading: that is simply what the Prophet says.

The Luke passage continues with the cloud enveloping them, and the voice from the cloud, which is clearly intended to be the voice of the Father.

Luke 9:34-35 ASV
34 And while he said these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my Son, my chosen: hear ye him.

And the clouds are the dust of His feet, (Nahum 1:3).

That's not a sod reading: perhaps it may be considered a sod understanding, but it derives from a simple pashat reading of those texts.

Yahudim · Mar 22, 2022

daq said:
Hmmm, well, I didn't quote Luke 9:34-35, Nahum 1:3, Zechariah 14:3-4, or 2 Peter 1:17-18, so how is my reading of Luke 9:12-33 not pashat?

The scripture I cited locks me in on this.

Matthew 16:13-28 ASV
13 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is? [Luke 9:18]
14 And they said, Some say John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. [Luke 9:19]
15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? [Luke 9:20]
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [Luke 9:20]
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ.[Luke 9:21]
21 From that time began Jesus to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up. [Luke 9:22]
22 And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [Luke 9:23]
25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. [Luke 9:24]
26 For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? [Luke 9:25]
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. [Luke 9:26]
28 Verily I say unto you, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. [Luke 9:27]

The context exactly follows the Luke companion passage except that Luke omits the keys of the kingdom portion, Mathew 16:17-19, and the episode of rebuke concerning Peter, Matthew 16:22-23. The Matthew passage, as plainly seen above, ends with the segue statement, Matthew 16:27, leading into the transfiguration event, Matthew 17:1. And what does the very next statement in the Luke companion passage say?

Luke 9:28 ASV
28 And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up into the mountain to pray.

According to the pashat reading of Luke 9 the transfiguration event is a mere eight days after the discourse at Caesarea Philippi. Whether one wants to believe that is in the fall or not, or whether it is right around Sukkot or not, is a different story altogether: but my readings of the verses cited above herein regarding this are also pashat, the plain and simple reading of those texts.

For example Zechariah 14:3-4 says the feet of the Most High will stand upon/over, (על), the mount of Olives, and that passage also makes mention of Sukkot later toward the end of the passage. Nahum 1:3 plainly states that the clouds are the dust of His feet, and that isn't my interpretation or a sod reading: that is simply what the Prophet says.

The Luke passage continues with the cloud enveloping them, and the voice from the cloud, which is clearly intended to be the voice of the Father.

Luke 9:34-35 ASV
34 And while he said these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my Son, my chosen: hear ye him.

And the clouds are the dust of His feet, (Nahum 1:3).

That's not a sod reading: perhaps it may be considered a sod understanding, but it derives from a simple pashat reading of those texts.

Hi daq,

Please forgive me. It seems I am often not clear in my writing. I don't have a problem with you or your research. It seems my problem is in seeing what you see.

As far as the Gospel accounts go, they jump from Pesach to Sukkot and back without even mentioning Shavuot. So constructing a timeline there seems to leave a lot of wiggle room.

There is little in the plain reading of these texts that assists in reconstructing a chronology, save to say that this event was near to Pesach when moments later you are reading about events around Sukkot. Then there are other accounts that simply say 'feast of the Jews' and leaves the reader to draw their own conclusions based on details contained therein.

Various attempts to 'harmonize' the Gospels or create a 'parallel' Gospel account has been going on since the sixteenth century. Needless to say, the Gospels, much less the scholars, do not all agree; and even much less so for being able to suss out the details needed to establish a chronology. Even limited chronologies such as what we are discussing here are very difficult.

Nonetheless, I can see why you might give one account within a limited framework, as having more weight than another. But we all have been down this path before (and many times at that). So I am a bit skeptical. But please don't take this as criticism of your efforts. It is not. I simply don't see any compelling evidence yet.

Was John talking about Daniel's prophecy?

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