A few questions for Protestants

Buzzard3

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In genuine believers. He was talking to the disciples, that's all who follow Jesus.
Oh, so you're saying any and all "genuine believers" have been led by the Holy Spirit to "all truth" ... this is your interpretation of John 16:13?

Fistly, how do define a "genuine believer"?
And how long does someone have to be a "genuine believer" before the Holy Spirit leds that person to "all truth"? One day? One year? Ten years?

Secondly, if any and all "genuine believers" have been led by the Holy Spirit to "all truth", why are there so many different and often conflicting opinions of what "all truth" is amongst these "genuine believers"?

Thirdly, if you are a "genuine believer", the Holy Spirit has led you to "all truth", right?

If I am a "genuine believer", that means the HS had led me to"all truth", right?
 
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Buzzard3

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According to your quote it's in people who have the Holy Spirit.
I didn't ask you WHERE "the truth" is; I asked you WHAT "the truth" is.

And according to your interpretation of that passage in Eph 4, since you "have the Holy Spirit", "the truth" is in you, right? So go ahead, tell me what "the truth" is.
 
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renniks

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Thirdly, if you are a "genuine believer", the Holy Spirit has led you to "all truth", right?
Well, have any of us reached the pinnacle of faith and knowledge yet?
"He will guide you into all truth". A better translation is "into all the truth".
The Holy Spirit is our guide
See Matthew 15:14; Luke 6:39; Revelation 7:17; and Acts 8:31.

The idea that any church will then contain all the truth is in error. If it did it would be a perfect church which we all know has never existed.
We ( our sin nature) are always in the way of receiving all the truth that is possible to understand. To claim your particular Church contains all truth is just as problematic, since the RCC has a very long list of abuses and false doctrines down through history. Perhaps if your church leaders had actually listened more to the Holy Spirit than to greedy individuals in it's leadership, it would not have needed a reform.
 
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renniks

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I didn't ask you WHERE "the truth" is; I asked you WHAT "the truth" is.

And according to your interpretation of that passage in Eph 4, since you "have the Holy Spirit", "the truth" is in you, right? So go ahead, tell me what "the truth" is.
The necessary truths are not hidden. The truth, of course, is Jesus himself. It's not any individual denomination.
 
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timothyu

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In other words, none of these Scriptures say what you claim they say. You are yet to answer my question by providing a Scripture that says the Church's structure must not resemble any earthly government.
They all say the thinking and systems of man are corrupt compared to the Kingdom. If it were not so He wouldn't have said it since the Garden. Christianity is by no means free of corruption. One of the most easily accessible things for the Adversary to return man's focus on the world and it's institutions and governments. So much attention paid to church institutions and so little to the Kingdom of God. Anyone can mimic the Kingdom but few live it. Being a friend of the world is simply living the same self serving ways of man. Self interest was the original sin ,putting our will ahead of the will of God.
 
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timothyu

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Your answer makes no grammatical sense. Jesus directly addressed Peter in Matt 26:18 for a reason ... that reason is contained in v.18 or 19, or both.
Sadly you leave out 16 and 17 which gives it context.
 
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Albion

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7. So.....the big question to you all is..... if you can't agree which one of you is correct, and the others are not, to whom or what can you turn to make that decision?
As another Catholic poster insisted recently, having someone to settle on a single answer is what's most important. That seems to be more important than having the correct one!

If having a single person issue his interpretation, whether correct or incorrect, to which all the followers will say "yes, yes," is the objective, then of course most Protestants are going to say "count me out."

But of course, even this isn't the way it works with the Catholic churches. That's because...

...No two of them agree on doctrine!

It doesn't matter that one of them has a Pope who supposedly is authoritative. The rest of the Catholic churches don't agree with him and don't care much what he says.

What's more, even among professing, loyal followers of the Pope in Rome, there is no unanimity of belief. The idea that there actually is such unity is just something to say to Protestants.

In short, the whole routine is an illusion.
 
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Fidelibus

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As another Catholic poster insisted recently, having someone to settle on a single answer is what's most important. That seems to be more important than having the correct one!

Please show the poster and post you are referring too .

If having a single person issue his interpretation, whether correct or incorrect, to which all the followers will say "yes, yes," is the objective, then of course most Protestants are going to say "count me out."

Count me out? count them out on what? My inquiry wasn't about counting this or that person out, it was about if two or more Protestants from any of the many Protestant/non-denominational churches or sects have a disagreement involving any certain scripture passage, and all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit, to who or what authority can they turn to decide who is correct in their interpretation, and who is not! Just like you timothyu, yeshuaFan, and pescador did on this thread on Matt. 16:19, 1 Tim. 3:15, and the true meaning of the term "The Way" as mentioned in scripture.

But of course, even this isn't the way it works with the Catholic churches. That's because......No two of them agree on doctrine!

100% deflection to the topic on hand. Not to mention being irrelevant and off topic.

It doesn't matter that one of them has a Pope who supposedly is authoritative. The rest of the Catholic churches don't agree with him and don't care much what he says.

Again, total deflection to the topic on hand, irrelevant and off topic.

What's more, even among professing, loyal followers of the Pope in Rome, there is no unanimity of belief. The idea that there actually is such unity is just something to say to Protestants.

Now you are resorting to comparing unity of the Catholic Church to the disunity among the tens of thousands splintered Protestant/non-denominational churches and sects?? If this dis-unity among the latter churches and sects wasn't so unfortunate, I'd end this with a "LoL", but will not.

In short, the whole routine is an illusion.

Sorry, but no. What is routine though Albion, is your lack of sand to answer the questions I put forth to you, over and over. Here is another chance for you, but pretty sure all I'd get is another one of your meaningless word salads. So, guess we'll see.

1. Why, if you are studying, learning believing from the same bible, are you have such different interpretations and beliefs in these scripture passages?

2. When you all study, read, and learn from the bible, are you not doing so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

3. When you all post your interpretations, beliefs, and understandings of scripture, is it your belief you are doing so under the guidance and truth from the Holy Spirit?

4. Would you all would agree there is no way the Holy Spirit would teach you error, there is only one truth?

5. Which one of you has the truth, and which of you do not?

6. Is it you that has the truth Albion? Or is it you timothyu that has the truth? Hmm.... maybe it's you pescador that has the truth? Could it be YeshuaFan has the truth?

7. So.....the big question to you all is..... if you can't agree which one of you is correct, and the others are not, to whom or what can you turn to make that decision?

The Ball is in your court Bub!

Have a Blessed evening!
 
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timothyu

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and the true meaning of the term "The Way" as mentioned in scripture.
Jesus represented the counter-culture of the Kingdom which ran contrary to the self serving ways of mankind, as mentioned in scripture. These are the ways of the Kingdom, The Father, the Son, and followers of the Kingdom and Jesus. It was a way of life hence the Way represented by Jesus who was the original example of the way, putting the will of the Father ahead of our own and loving all as self, as mentioned in scripture. Caring for all as we would be cared for by them, rather then putting self interest and gain first as the later gentile religion did.

50 protests at locations in Russia recently demonstrated the way by protesting the abuse being heaped upon the Ukraine. Of course the ways of man treated them as heretics to authourity, just as the Gentile church once did. That punishment in both cases definitely was/is not the way Jesus taught. But many institutions of authourity like to falsely claim the title.
 
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timothyu

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Jesus teaches us and starts a way of life modelled on the Kingdom of God, not the kingdoms and institutions of man. Hmmm... what would the Adversary do. Oh I know! Take that way of life and institutionalize it in the same way man had/has done all along. Back to square one.
 
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Fidelibus

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Jesus represented the counter-culture of the Kingdom which ran contrary to the self serving ways of mankind, as mentioned in scripture. These are the ways of the Kingdom, The Father, the Son, and followers of the Kingdom and Jesus. It was a way of life hence the Way represented by Jesus who was the original example of the way, putting the will of the Father ahead of our own and loving all as self, as mentioned in scripture. Caring for all as we would be cared for by them, rather then putting self interest and gain first as the later gentile religion did.

50 protests at locations in Russia recently demonstrated the way by protesting the abuse being heaped upon the Ukraine. Of course, the ways of man treated them as heretics to authourity, just as the Gentile church once did. That punishment in both cases definitely was/is not the way Jesus taught. But many institutions of authourity like to falsely claim the title.

All I see here timothyu is nothing more than another meaningless word salad, something that is a common response from a different Protestant adherent of sola scriptura like yourself. (He knows who he is) I was hoping timothyu, you may have a little more sand than your cohort I am referring too.
Unfortunately, it seems that was nothing more than wishful thinking on my part. Sad...very sad.

Anyway, if you think I am in error, I am all for giving you another chance. I will repost:

"If two or more Protestants from any of the many Protestant/non-denominational churches or sects have a disagreement involving any certain scripture passage, and all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit, to who or what authority can you turn, to decide who is correct in their interpretation, and whom is not! Just like you, and Albion, yeshuaFan, and pescador did on this thread in regards Matt. 16:19, 1 Tim. 3:15, and the disagreement regarding the true meaning of the term "The Way" as mentioned in scripture."

So, once again timothyu, since this is a thread for non-Protestants to ask Protestants questions regarding their church's teachings, (which ever one of the many different Protestant churches and sects that may be) I will then repost these same questions I presented to your fellow Protestants....Albion, YeshuaFan, Pescador, and yourself, timothyu as follows:

"1. Why, if you are studying, learning believing from the same bible, are you have such different interpretations and beliefs in these scripture passages?

2. When you all study, read, and learn from the bible, are you not doing so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

3. When you all post your interpretations, beliefs, and understandings of scripture, is it your belief you are doing so under the guidance and truth from the Holy Spirit?

4. Would you all would agree there is no way the Holy Spirit would teach you error, there is only one truth?

5. Which one of you has the truth, and which of you do not?

6. Is it you that has the truth Albion? Or is it you timothyu that has the truth? Hmm.... maybe it's you pescador that has the truth? Could it be YeshuaFan has the truth?

7. So.....the big question to you all is..... if you can't agree which one of you is correct, and the others are not, to whom or what can you turn to make that decision?"

So, I am hoping timothyu, unlike one of your fellow Protestant posters, I am looking forward to seeing if "YOU" have the sand to answer this question.

Thank you in advance!
 
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Fidelibus

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I've answered what is pertinent to my point of view.

And you completely avoided the questions I asked. A perfect example of the "Wave of the Hand" style of disputation that we are becoming oh so familiar in dealing with Protestants such as yourself, when confronted why so many differing scripture interpretations/beliefs among the many different Protestant/non-denominational churches/sects and individuals. And to who or what authority can these churches/sects and individuals turn to decide who has the truth, and who does not. All while claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations, no less.

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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eleos1954

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God can work through people and even objects. Remember Matthew 18:

"Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,
and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Peter and the other disciples were to continue Christ’s work on earth in preaching the gospel and declaring God’s will to men and they were armed with the same authority as He possessed in this regard.

In Matthew 18:18, is reference to the binding and loosing in the context of church discipline. The apostles do not usurp Christ’s lordship and authority over individual believers and their eternal destiny, but they do exercise the authority to discipline and, if necessary, expel disobedient church members.

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
 
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Buzzard3

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The necessary truths are not hidden.
Which verse says "These are the necessary truths ..."? How do you know what the "necessary truths" are?
The truth, of course, is Jesus himself. It's not any individual denomination.
Eph 1:22-23 says the Church is the body and "fullness" of Christ. Is your church the "fullness" of Christ?
 
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Buzzard3

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But of course, even this isn't the way it works with the Catholic churches. That's because...

...No two of them agree on doctrine!

It doesn't matter that one of them has a Pope who supposedly is authoritative. The rest of the Catholic churches don't agree with him and don't care much what he says.

What's more, even among professing, loyal followers of the Pope in Rome, there is no unanimity of belief. The idea that there actually is such unity is just something to say to Protestants.
Please cite an example of this widespread disagreement.
 
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