The Christian teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist Church

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BobRyan

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So how can one have any assurance with the Investigative Judgement hanging over their head?

I have a lot of respect for theAdventist Hebrew scholar Ray Cottrell who took this on from the Hebrew Bible--but unfortunately was stymied by GC Higher ups. Very sad story.

What say you about Mr. Cotrell? https://www.sabbathinchrist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/cottrell-1844.pdf

Looks to me like he seemed to be fairly normal and in harmony with SDA doctrine until sometime after his retirement in 1977. After that he seemed to derail a bit
 
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SustainableBlueberry

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I am hoping you read his message-- a lot of what he studied was prior to 1972 (not 1977) when you said he was “normal”.


Page 13 from the paper: "The Commentary experience with Daniel already mentioned led me into an

unhurried, in-depth, spare-time, comprehensive study of Daniel 7 to 12

that continued without interruption for seventeen years (1955-1972), in

quest of a conclusive solution to the sanctuary problem. My objective was to

be fully prepared with definitive, objective, biblical information the next

time the question should arise during the course of my ministry for the

church.



Among other things I memorized, in Hebrew, all relevant portions of Daniel 8

to 12 for instant recall and comparison (60 verses), conducted exhaustive

word studies (38) of more than 150 relevant Hebrew words Daniel uses,

throughout the Old Testament, studied the Hebrew grammar and syntax in

detail, made a minute analysis of contextual data,(39) compared ancient Greek

and Latin translations of Daniel,(40) investigated relevant apocryphal and New

Testament passages,(41) traced Jewish and Christian interpretation of Daniel

from ancient to modern times,(42) and made an exhaustive study of the

formation, development, and subsequent Adventist experience with the

traditional sanctuary doctrine.(43) Eventually I incorporated the results of

this investigation into an 1100 page manuscript which I later reduced to 725

pages but decided not release for publication until an appropriate time.



The above considerations conclusively demonstrate that our [Adventist] traditional

interpretation of Daniel 8:14, the sanctuary, and the investigative judgment

as set forth in Article 23 of Fundamental Beliefs does not accurately

reflect the teaching of Scripture with respect to the ministry of Christ on

our behalf since His return to heaven. (44) Accordingly, it is appropriate (1)

to note wherein Article 23 is thus defective,(45) (2) to revise the article so

as to reflect Bible teaching on this aspect of His ministry accurately, and

(3) to suggest a process designed to protect the church from this and

similar traumatic experiences in the future.



After the secret Daniel -Hebrew scholar committee was called (and disbanded) why did the GC hierarchy never acknowledge or counter Cottrell et. al. work in the Hebrew nor ever address his statement (in bold above?) If according to the Hebrew Bible (Daniel) Article 23 is defective, and you all state you are sola scriptura ...why does Article 23 remain unrevised to reflect actual Bible teaching (from the original autographs) on this aspect of Christ’s ministry when Article 23 as written is not supported by Daniel 8:14 [in Hebrew] and has been confirmed by multiple Adventist Hebrew scholars?
 
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I am hoping you read his message-- a lot of what he studied was prior to 1972 (not 1977) when you said he was “normal”.

I am not arguing he was not studying when he was normal - prior to retirement
 
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BobRyan

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If according to the Hebrew Bible (Daniel) Article 23 is defective, and you all state you are sola scriptura ...why does Article 23 remain unrevised

because it does not "become defective" on the say-so of a retired pastor.

=== current data on Fundamental beliefs of SDAs


23. Marriage and the Family:
Marriage was divinely established in Eden and affirmed by Jesus to be a lifelong union between a man and a woman in loving companionship. For the Christian a marriage commitment is to God as well as to the spouse, and should be entered into only between partners who share a common faith. Mutual love, honor, respect, and responsibility are the fabric of this relationship, which is to reflect the love, sanctity, closeness, and permanence of the relationship between Christ and His church. Regarding divorce, Jesus taught that the person who divorces a spouse, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery. Although some family relationships may fall short of the ideal, marriage partners who fully commit themselves to each other in Christ may achieve loving unity through the guidance of the Spirit and the nurture of the church. God blesses the family and intends that its members shall assist each other toward complete maturity. Parents are to bring up their children to love and obey the Lord. By their example and their words they are to teach them that Christ is a loving disciplinarian, ever tender and caring, who wants them to become members of His body, the family of God. Increasing family closeness is one of the earmarks of the final gospel message. (Gen. 2:18-25; Matt. 19:3-9; John 2:1-11; 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 5:21-33; Matt. 5:31, 32; Mark 10:11, 12; Luke 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:10, 11; Ex. 20:12; Eph. 6:1-4; Deut. 6:5-9; Prov. 22:6; Mal. 4:5, 6.)


24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)


1. there is a Sanctuary in heaven - Heb 8:1-5
2. in it Christ ministers as High Priest - Heb 4:14-16
3. there is a pre-advent judgment Dan 7:9-26
4. It is based on facts contained a review of books - Dan 7:9-10
5. the "judgment solution" in Dan 7 correlates to the sanctuary cleansing solution given in Dan 8:13-14.
 
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I am not arguing he was not studying when he was normal - prior to retirement
Ok fine. What about his and the secret committee's conclusions from the Hebrew Bible about Daniel 8? It seems a shabby way to treat a humble, gifted scholar by just ignoring his careful conclusions from the Hebrew Bible yet publicly state that we are sola scriptura? Huh? Seems like a bit of organizational cognitive dissonance about a key pillar in your belief system. What say you?​
 
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He was no ordinary pastor but a gifted Hebrew scholar. What about what Daniel 8 states in the Hebrew? How hard is it to say ... we were mistaken Daniel 8 in the Hebrew teaches something different and we are revising #24 accordingly?
 
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BobRyan

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He was no ordinary pastor but a gifted Hebrew scholar. What about what Daniel 8 states in the Hebrew? How hard is it to say ... we were mistaken Daniel 8 in the Hebrew teaches something different and we are revising #24 accordingly?

first you have to find a mistake. I have provide #24.
 
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BobRyan

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Seems like a bit of organizational cognitive dissonance about a key pillar in your belief system. What say you?​

I say as editor of AToday - after his retirement from his job for the denomination itself -- he had a huge megaphone blasting out every complaint he ever dreamed of - getting far more mileage out of it than any of his peers. His is not a case about lack of attention.
 
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tall73

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Ellen White was a messenger, not a Prophet.

Folks can read Ellen White on the matter and see that she claimed her work included "much more than the word 'prophet' signifies."


Some have stumbled over the fact that I said I did not claim to be a prophet and they have asked, Why is this?

I have had no claims to make, only that I am instructed that I am the Lord's messenger; that he called me in my youth to be his messenger, to receive his word, and to give a clear and decided message in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be his messenger. "Your work," he instructed me, "is to bear my word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make my Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. My Spirit and my power shall be with you.

"Be not afraid of man, for my shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil."

Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies. {RH, July 26, 1906}
 
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Ok fine. What about his and the secret committee's conclusions from the Hebrew Bible about Daniel 8?​

A so-called "secret committee" can decide whatever they wish - but they can't define new doctrine or redefine existing doctrine... so go ahead and "stay secret" if that is all they wish.
 
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He was no ordinary pastor but a gifted Hebrew scholar. What about what Daniel 8 states in the Hebrew? How hard is it to say ... we were mistaken Daniel 8 in the Hebrew teaches something different and we are revising #24 accordingly?


A great many scholars differ on the same subject all day long. My "test" for truth or error is not "does some scholar differ with another scholar"...

I prefer to see the actual Bible case for a given idea.
 
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BobRyan

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How hard is it to say ... we were mistaken Daniel 8 in the Hebrew teaches something different and we are revising #24 accordingly?

All they have to do is propose it - and then make their case for it to see if the denomination then votes to approve whatever change they are suggesting.
 
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tall73

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A great many scholars differ on the same subject all day long. My "test" for truth or error is not "does some scholar differ with another scholar"...

I prefer to see the actual Bible case for a given idea.

Agreed. we need to see the actual case. Ford did present his case publicly, and had many years to clarify that case.

But Cottrell went on record publicly about his position, but did not publish all of his evidence while still alive, saying it would wait for an appropriate time. I don't think that is a good way to handle things since now he is gone and cannot clarify any of his positions if it is published.

From his writings it is clear he didn't want to divide the church. And my understanding is there is a copy in his papers with the denomination. But it has not been given to the rest of the public.

 
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Ok fine. What about his and the secret committee's conclusions from the Hebrew Bible about Daniel 8? It seems a shabby way to treat a humble, gifted scholar by just ignoring his careful conclusions from the Hebrew Bible yet publicly state that we are sola scriptura? Huh? Seems like a bit of organizational cognitive dissonance about a key pillar in your belief system. What say you?​

They didn't ignore it or him in the long run. Though it took Ford forcing the issue to bring it up again. They discussed the findings at Glacier View, and Cottrell was there for that. So were some of the others who were on that committee.

Unfortunately I am not aware that Cottrell's actual exegesis document has been given to the public yet. He should have put his exegesis out if he wanted his whole case to be presented. If you are going to appeal to the denomination to reconsider the wisdom of the doctrine, then include all the evidence you have, not just the practical considerations he outlines in Asset or Liability.
 
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Agreed. we need to see the actual case. Ford did present his case publicly, and had many years to clarify that case.

Agreed and he is of course welcomed to his POV... but we should not have to pay him for it if we view his position to be in error.
 
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But Cottrell went on record publicly about his position, but did not publish all of his evidence while still alive, saying it would wait for an appropriate time. I don't think that is a good way to handle things since now he is gone and cannot clarify any of his positions if it is published.

From his writings it is clear he didn't want to divide the church. And my understanding is there is a copy in his papers with the denomination. But it has not been given to the rest of the public.

There are a great many people that have some incorrect view of something - and it has not all been published. So that is not the surprising part. What would be surprising is if Cottrell had ever said something like "I find something to be in error on xyz doctrine that nobody has ever published. It is in one of my personal papers but it too is not published"

I did not find anything from Cottrell of that form "I found something nobody else has considered or discussed in print". Which means he could easily just point to someone's work and say "look there" which he did.
 
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tall73

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There are a great many people that have some incorrect view of something - and it has not all been published. So that is not the surprising part. What would be surprising is if Cottrell had ever said something like "I find something to be in error on xyz doctrine that nobody has ever published. It is in one of my personal papers but it too is not published"

I did not find anything from Cottrell of that form "I found something nobody else has considered or discussed in print". Which means he could easily just point to someone's work and say "look there" which he did.

If your view is that the 700 some pages of his exegesis which he felt compelled to undertake is just re-hashed material, then perhaps you could talk to your contacts the next time you visit the bretheren of note and ask them to release this harmless document to the public.
 
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If your view is that the 700 some pages of his exegesis which he felt compelled to undertake is just re-hashed material .

I have some 900 pages from multiple SDA scholars after cottrell's fiasco in the document "The Sanctuary and the Atonement", and over 1000 pages in the 5 volume series from SDA scholars in the "Daniel and Revelation Committee" series of scholarly papers. Are we really down to "counting number of pages" when it comes to finding out what is true???

My view is that I know of no statement from Cottrell where he claims to have some unique bit of data that no one else had. I see areas where he claims someone else had a good argument about something... but I don't see anything where he claims nobody has actually found what he has found. Generally speaking scholarly arguments from exegesis of texts we all know very well - are sometimes compelling... sometimes not when trying to push a conclusion that the group got it all wrong.

The number of pages is not the detail that proves whether a given argument is compelling
 
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