Can God Change

disciple Clint · Feb 22, 2022

com7fy8 said:
Well, Jesus is not on the earth now.

John is talking about Jesus on this earth, mainly.

And it depends on what you mean by 100% human.

As I have offered, Jesus is and was not able to sin . . . now or while in the flesh. So, Jesus is not 100% how human sinners are, in any case, and never was.

And Jesus is God's own Son, not what is true of humans.

To me, being human means being a creature, and not our Creator. And ones understand that Jesus is our Creator. So, I am not saying that Jesus is both. I believe Jesus is our Creator.

OK the Bible tells us that Jesus is fully man just like us and fully God. It matters not where Jesus is He still is incarnate and has two natures human and God, He is fully both. Jesus could be tempted, the devil was not wasting time in the wilderness where he tempted Jesus. Jesus did not sin because His human nature was perfect and was filled with the Holy Spirit, while He could be tempted He was obedient to the Father, that is seen in His struggles in the garden where He asks for the cup to be passed from Him.

Akita Suggagaki · Feb 22, 2022

disciple Clint said:
If something is perfect it can not be improved, Right? So that would mean that any change would result in something less than perfect, Right? God is not something less than perfect, Right? So God can not change, Right? OK

Improved, no. Changed yes.

Perfection can change. As I said before, look at the sunset. Is one moment more perfect than another?

com7fy8 · Feb 22, 2022

disciple Clint said:
OK the Bible tells us that Jesus is fully man just like us and fully God. It matters not where Jesus is He still is incarnate and has two natures human and God, He is fully both. Jesus could be tempted, the devil was not wasting time in the wilderness where he tempted Jesus. Jesus did not sin because His human nature was perfect and was filled with the Holy Spirit, while He could be tempted He was obedient to the Father, that is seen in His struggles in the garden where He asks for the cup to be passed from Him.

You have made yourself clear.

But >

You say, "Jesus could be tempted" > but being able to be tempted can have different meanings.

And I do not assume that Jesus could give in to evil, because Jesus is God's own Son and God "cannot be tempted by evil," we have in James 1:13. I understand this means God can not give in to however evil would try to effect and influence Him. And Jesus is the same as our Heavenly Father > "He who has seen Me has seen the Father also," Jesus Himself says, in John 14:6.

And you say, "Satan was not wasting time in the wilderness where he tempted Jesus." I understand that Satan was wasting his time, and not only by tempting Jesus; he was right in the presence of Jesus Himself, but he did not so greatly appreciate how he was with Jesus who is God's own dearly beloved Son; instead, Satan wasted that opportunity to be with Jesus and appreciate and adore and share with Jesus. That was a horrible waste!! And - - about what you are claiming . . . he could not overcome Jesus; so yes he was wasting time . . . and his eternity.

To me, it has been clear, all along, that Satan has done nothing but waste . . . waste his eternity, not only his time. What Satan does or can do does not decide anything, at all, about Jesus.

Strong in Him · Feb 22, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Can God Change

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

Change his nature, or attributes? No.
Change the way that he works? Yes; clearly. He once "lived" in a tabernacle; now he lives in his children. God once spoke through the prophets (and even through a donkey!), he now speaks through his Son, through the Bible or may speak to us directly.
It was once thought that whoever looked at God would die; but people looked at Jesus, touched him and even crucified him.

I prefer to think of Christ, in the words of the song, as taking on flesh.
He did not become human instead of being God - i.e changed from one to the other. The Word was God.

Jamdoc · Feb 22, 2022

com7fy8 said:
but he did not so greatly appreciate how he was with Jesus who is God's own dearly beloved Son; instead, Satan wasted that opportunity to be with Jesus and appreciate and adore and share with Jesus. That was a horrible waste!!

I kind of scratch my head about your stance here.
Satan was rejected by God for his rebellion, and angels are not redeemable by Christ, they can find no forgiveness.
to Satan, Jesus means a lot less to him, there's considerably less reason to adore the judge and executioner who you know is going to torture you forever.

Strong in Him · Feb 22, 2022

Jamdoc said:
I kind of scratch my head about your stance here.
Satan was rejected by God for his rebellion, and angels are not redeemable by Christ, they can find no forgiveness.

Agreed.
Satan hated God - and Jesus was God. He would never have worshipped God in Jesus.
His aim was to tempt Jesus and make him sin against his Father, so that he could not have borne the sins of the world and saved us from eternal death.
Then Satan would have had all of us, forever.

disciple Clint · Feb 23, 2022

com7fy8 said:
You have made yourself clear.

But >

You say, "Jesus could be tempted" > but being able to be tempted can have different meanings.

And I do not assume that Jesus could give in to evil, because Jesus is God's own Son and God "cannot be tempted by evil," we have in James 1:13. I understand this means God can not give in to however evil would try to effect and influence Him. And Jesus is the same as our Heavenly Father > "He who has seen Me has seen the Father also," Jesus Himself says, in John 14:6.

And you say, "Satan was not wasting time in the wilderness where he tempted Jesus." I understand that Satan was wasting his time, and not only by tempting Jesus; he was right in the presence of Jesus Himself, but he did not so greatly appreciate how he was with Jesus who is God's own dearly beloved Son; instead, Satan wasted that opportunity to be with Jesus and appreciate and adore and share with Jesus. That was a horrible waste!! And - - about what you are claiming . . . he could not overcome Jesus; so yes he was wasting time . . . and his eternity.

To me, it has been clear, all along, that Satan has done nothing but waste . . . waste his eternity, not only his time. What Satan does or can do does not decide anything, at all, about Jesus.

OK I think where we are still slightly apart is in your non acceptance that Jesus has two natures. His human nature is exactly like ours it can be tempted, the devil was trying to set up a conflict within the two natures of Jesus much like the conflict that Jesus experienced in the garden. No human nature wants to go through what Jesus went through to save us. Now in theory Jesus in His human nature could have given in to the temptation, He did not because His human nature was filled with the Holy Spirit well beyond the amount we are filled and as we know the more we are filled with the Holy Spirit the easier it is to be like Jesus and obey God. What would have happened if His human nature would have given in is a mater of Theological speculation and debate, there is an argument that His divine nature, (God), would have respected the free will decision of His human nature and allowed Jesus to return to the Father without completing His mission. The justification for that argument is that God loves man so much that God's love would cause Him to honor all free will decisions. This is no doubt a subject better handled in another thread. I just wanted to open your thoughts to the possibilities that exist.

disciple Clint · Feb 23, 2022

Strong in Him said:
Change his nature, or attributes? No.
Change the way that he works? Yes; clearly. He once "lived" in a tabernacle; now he lives in his children. God once spoke through the prophets (and even through a donkey!), he now speaks through his Son, through the Bible or may speak to us directly.
It was once thought that whoever looked at God would die; but people looked at Jesus, touched him and even crucified him.

I prefer to think of Christ, in the words of the song, as taking on flesh.
He did not become human instead of being God - i.e changed from one to the other. The Word was God.

No it was much more than taking on flesh that would deny His human nature, He remained God but also became fully human in every way exactly as we are human. Two natures each fully what they are but one person.

Strong in Him · Feb 23, 2022

disciple Clint said:
No it was much more than taking on flesh that would deny His human nature, He remained God but also became fully human in every way exactly as we are human. Two natures each fully what they are but one person.

That's what I said; he was God and remained God, as well as being human.
I was pondering the word "became" - which, to me, suggests ceasing to be one thing and changing to something else - he became sad, she became a redhead/nurse/teacher/missionary etc etc.

God did not stop being God when he was born as a human being.
Jesus was fully God + fully man in one person.

com7fy8 · Feb 23, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Jesus has two natures.

But our thread question is if God can change. And God is not Jesus Christ's body which can change. And Jesus Himself is not His body, I would say; Jesus Himself existed before His body existed; so Jesus is not His created body which is human and can change. So, whether or not His body can change is not relevant to whether or not Jesus Himself is capable of changing.

James 1:13 is clear > "God cannot be tempted by evil". He can not be changed by evil. And Jesus is God as the Son of God. He can not be tempted by evil . . . meaning evil can not change Him in its effort to tempt Him. Evil can come against Him with temptation, meaning to try to change Jesus, but it can not succeed.

So, yes the created body human of Jesus could change; but Jesus Himself can not change. But, like I mean, Jesus Christ's body is not Jesus who existed before His human body existed. So, the nature of His body, then, is not really His own true one nature which existed before His body did.

Jesus can not be changeable and not changeable in His nature, I would say.

disciple Clint · Feb 23, 2022

com7fy8 said:
But our thread question is if God can change. And God is not Jesus Christ's body which can change. And Jesus Himself is not His body, I would say; Jesus Himself existed before His body existed; so Jesus is not His created body which is human and can change. So, whether or not His body can change is not relevant to whether or not Jesus Himself is capable of changing.

James 1:13 is clear > "God cannot be tempted by evil". He can not be changed by evil. And Jesus is God as the Son of God. He can not be tempted by evil . . . meaning evil can not change Him in its effort to tempt Him. Evil can come against Him with temptation, meaning to try to change Jesus, but it can not succeed.

So, yes the created body human of Jesus could change; but Jesus Himself can not change. But, like I mean, Jesus Christ's body is not Jesus who existed before His human body existed. So, the nature of His body, then, is not really His own true one nature which existed before His body did.

Jesus can not be changeable and not changeable in His nature, I would say.

com7fy8 said:
So, the nature of His body, then, is not really His own true one nature which existed before His body did.

Two natures, Two natures, one human and one divine, one plus one equals two.

com7fy8 · Feb 23, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Two natures, Two natures, one human and one divine, one plus one equals two.

Yes, but what about how "God cannot be tempted by evil"? James 1:13.

Jesus existed before He had His human body. So, His body is not really Jesus, I would say. And therefore the human nature of His body is not really His nature.

Strong in Him · Feb 23, 2022

com7fy8 said:
Yes, but what about how "God cannot be tempted by evil"? James 1:13.

Jesus existed before He had His human body. So, His body is not really Jesus, I would say. And therefore the human nature of His body is not really His nature.

The Word existed before Jesus was born. He was not called Jesus until the angel told Joseph to name him Jesus, Matthew 1:21.
As a human being, Jesus was tempted; the Gospels tell us that and, if he hadn't been, he wouldn't be like us in every way except for sin.
Can God be tempted? No. But neither can God die, and Jesus did.
We humans, with finite minds, are never going to be able to fully understand God.

Neogaia777 · Feb 23, 2022

God the Father cannot be tempted by evil.

Jesus could, but did not once give into it.

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Feb 23, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
God the Father cannot be tempted by evil.

Jesus could, but did not give into it.

God Bless!

Your guy's lack of true genuine understanding, and not knowing God, is why you are running into, and/or are noticing, and/or are facing, all these apparent "contradictions".

They wouldn't be an issue if you truly knew.

But all would become "clear".

But you'd have to be able to come to know, and/or accept, all the differences between the Three, and you refuse to, so...

God Bless!

com7fy8 · Feb 23, 2022

Strong in Him said:
But neither can God die, and Jesus did.

I have understood that Jesus' body died . . . He simply moved from this life; but always Jesus still was alive spiritually. So, in the way that God cannot die, Jesus did not die. But as far as having a physical body that died, yes Jesus died . . . for our sins.

com7fy8 · Feb 23, 2022

Strong in Him said:
As a human being, Jesus was tempted; the Gospels tell us that and, if he hadn't been, he wouldn't be like us in every way except for sin.
Can God be tempted? No.

But nowhere does the Bible directly say Jesus could have given in to a temptation; nor does it say He could be controlled by the human nature of His physical body.

Being tempted does not necessarily mean you could give in to it. It means you are tested; it can mean an attempt is made to influence you; and/or it can mean you feel like doing something. But the fact that you are tempted does not guarantee that you could give in. And in case Satan thought he could beat Jesus or get Jesus to sin does not mean it is true, I would say . . . since Satan is a liar who I would understand was capable of fooling himself, as ones can do in their pride.

You can be tempted and feel like doing that thing and give in. Or, you can be attacked by a temptation and not give in, even though you could. But Jesus, when He was attacked by temptations, did not give in because He had the character not to . . . character incapable of failing.

As God's own Son, Jesus had the character of God so He could not give in to the temptation. Because "God cannot be tempted by evil," we have in James 1:13 > "He who has seen Me has seen the Farther," Jesus said - - even while He still was in His unresurrected body > John 14:6.

So, He functioned in His human body; but deeply He was how God is, not inferior like humans.

But yes, His body could change and die, because of its nature. But Jesus was not His body which died; Jesus is "the resurrection and the life" (in John 11:25) And He said He is, right while still in His mortal body. This life can not die.

Also, Jesus said . . . while on earth in His mortal body >

"All things that the Father has are Mine" > John 16:15. So, from this I understand that Jesus has immortality, and inability to give in to temptation. He can be tempted, yes, meaning He can be attacked by a temptation. But He can not be tempted, in the sense of being attacked and overcome.

Neogaia777 · Feb 23, 2022

I know in what ways Jesus was attacked by the enemy, because I experience the same, but unlike Jesus, I cannot keep up and/or change gears or shift/switch perspectives in my mind that fast mentally or that quickly, etc...

So, I have to avoid crowds, and crowded places, and groups of people, and be alone a lot, etc, and when I have to go out, I have to put headphones in so I do not go "absolutely crazy" mentally, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Feb 23, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
I know in what ways Jesus was attacked by the enemy, because I experience the same, but unlike Jesus, I cannot keep up and/or change gears or shift/switch perspectives in my mind that fast mentally or that quickly, etc...

So, I have to avoid crowds, and crowded places, and groups of people, and be alone a lot, etc, and when I have to go out, I have to put headphones in so I do not go "absolutely crazy" mentally, etc...

God Bless!

I occasionally give into some temptations to sin sometimes, other than that as well, which is also different from Jesus also, etc...

But that which most of the time is my own fault, and is not due to being overly tempted by the devil, or the enemy, etc...

But the "other things I just now mentioned", yeah, I definitely can "relate", etc, and I am not nearly as good as Jesus was at it, or about it, etc, and have a heck of a lot of "limitations" because of it, etc...

God Bless!

Strong in Him · Feb 23, 2022

com7fy8 said:
But nowhere does the Bible directly say Jesus could have given in to a temptation; nor does it say He could be controlled by the human nature of His physical body.

Being tempted does not necessarily mean you could give in to it. It means you are tested; it can mean an attempt is made to influence you; and/or it can mean you feel like doing something. But the fact that you are tempted does not guarantee that you could give in.

If there's no possibility that someone will give in to something, it's not a temptation.
I have no intention of playing poker, blackjack or whatever it is that people play, or even the lottery to try and win loads of money - so these things are not a temptation.
However many times I may say, "I'll kill him/her/them", I have no intention of doing so - so it's not a temptation.
Jesus was led into the wilderness by the Spirit, went without food for 40 days and was tempted to turn stones into bread. If there wasn't the slightest chance that he could have done that, it wasn't a temptation. I am pretty sure that, as a human being, Jesus would have been extremely hungry after 40 days.

And the bigger picture is that if he wasn't tempted, then he doesn't know what it's like when we are tempted; tempted to misuse power, to do things to satisfy our own needs, to act unethically for our own interests/health/self survival. He does know what it's like - so he is our mediator and can intercede for us.

com7fy8 said:
You can be tempted and feel like doing that thing and give in. Or, you can be attacked by a temptation and not give in, even though you could.

If the temptation is something that you might want, or consider - like making bread from stones after 40 days of hunger. Or if you make an emphatic statement - "I will give up chocolate for Lent" - or something dramatic happens - God saying "you are my Son." Then that devilish voice pipes up and says "ARE you?" "WILL you?"
Like on the adverts; people make you question if you are happy with your lifestyle and life choices, and try to persuade you that you want/need to change - which will, obviously, involve buying their product. Or that to be a cool person, and someone who will be accepted, you have to buy the latest brands/cover up your grey hair/be seen in the best places, or to be drinking the best wine, etc etc.
Those who value possessions, want to be accepted, to keep up with the Joneses, or use possessions as a form of status and security, may be swayed by such marketing - "look younger/fitter/cooler" etc.
Personally, they don't work on me, because, generally speaking, I don't care.

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