Finnish Christian On Trial For Quoting The Bible On Twitter: ‘God Is Working’

miamited said:

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

Well obviously, you and I see what Jesus has called us to do as believers ministering to unbelievers differently.

God bless,
Ted

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He is not advocating to ministering to the unbeliever, he wants Christians to dominate the unbeliever and drive them out like they did from Spain.

He wants to bring back the glory days of Christian Europe. He forget that it was a son of a Baptist pastor started a war in Europe that killed 75 million people.

Tiberius Lee said:

You are advocating Christian establish Christian society, Christian nation, Christian government like in 15th century Europe.

There is no Biblical passage to support this kind of theology. As a matter of fact again and again teaching of N.T. is that we Christians are a temporary resident of this world, we do every thing to live eternal life in haven. What you want completely contradict Jesus teaching.


1. John 17:14-16 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.


2. John 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.


3. John 8:22-24 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”


4. 1 John 4:5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.


9. Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


10. James 4:4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.


11. 1 John 2:15-17 Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world. And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever.


12. John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”


13. Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.


14. Matthew 16:26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?


15. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.“


16. Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.


17. 2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


18. 1 Peter 2:11-12 Dear friends, I warn you as “temporary residents and foreigners” to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against your very souls. Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world.


19. Matthew 5:13-16 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.


20. Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.

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Is your contention that the Church and Christians are unfit to rule themselves but must rely on Pagans, Atheists, Muslims and Secularists to rule them? That we must a permanent serf class who can exist solely on the whim of others? I.e., you would prefer us to be like the Japanese Christians and just be slaughtered, rather than take an inch of authority in secular matters? Even if it benefitted the Church and the world in the long run? This is a suicidal view, not a wise or moral view.

I think such a vision cowardly and non-Christian quite frankly. Nowhere in the bible are we told Christians can't be rulers, that we can't judge between ourselves how our communities ought to operate. That we can't have standards. That we can't have a society. Indeed that's part of the point of the Church to be something separate and other than Non-Christians. Why do we have to submit ourselves as dhimmis to the standards and rules of others in political matters if our way of life and view of the world is better?

You're not really speaking biblically or connection to anything from the Christian tradition. Your speaking a subject or slave of secularism and the current elite who foster this sort of attitude. There's nothing noble or pious in it.

miamited said:

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

Well obviously, you and I see what Jesus has called us to do as believers ministering to unbelievers differently.

God bless,
Ted

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We clearly do have different ideas of ministering. You seem to think all power is used for evil purposes and that Christians are inherently untrustworthy when it comes to power. better to have an Atheist be our ruler, I am sure they will respect our wishes and not seek to impose themselves on us. They would never for instance insist schools be secular and if your children don't go to these institutions or receive an approved curricula they will take them away from you. Because clearly that is a better standard than the idea of teaching Christianity first, or holding a classical view of things, including education.

You seem to think that we can ignore the political and that it won't come after us. You have more of a problem with a Christian asserting themselves than a Muslim asserting themselves. It's simply a bad way of understanding how people operate. It trusts too blindly your ideological enemies to do what's in your interests. They will never do what's in your interest and we see this happening as secularism takes a firmer hold in the western world.

You are not allowed to criticize, from a Christian perspective homosexuality without being punished. Maybe you approve of this, I don't know. I know you have no solution to it if you say we can't have influence in legal and governmental matters. It's this view precisely that has undermined Christianity in the west. By divesting itself from all public expression other ideas and thoughts fill that void. Non-Christian ideas and thoughts. Is this a good thing? Am I supposed to be happy that the west has lost it's faith?

Hi @Tiberius Lee

I'm not so sure that he's advocating for driving them out, as much as just somehow making them obey God's laws and commands while they are with us. That didn't work for God in Israel, as far as the whole nation being subservient to His law. Some were, such as we read in the book of Daniel, and of course, it's accepted that most of the men and women who wrote their parts in the old covenant were. But I really think that a clear reading of the rising up of Israel and the nation as a whole was littered with sin and sinful people. God even defines them as a sinful brood.

Isaiah 1:4 Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.

Ezekiel in describing the future of Israel 37:23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them.

Jeremiah 23:14 And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that not one of them turns from their wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah.”

Hosea 10:9 “Since the days of Gibeah, you have sinned, Israel, and there you have remained.Will not war again overtake the evildoers in Gibeah?

Even Jesus declared, Matthew 23:31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.

Jesus further declared that the leaders of Israel were as white washed tombs. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean."

How in the world anyone could even conceive that a nation built by men could achieve such a great thing, is beyond me.

God bless,
Ted

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Is your contention that the Church and Christians are unfit to rule themselves but must rely on Pagans, Atheists, Muslims and Secularists to rule them? That we must a permanent serf class who can exist solely on the whim of others? I.e., you would prefer us to be like the Japanese Christians and just be slaughtered, rather than take an inch of authority in secular matters? Even if it benefitted the Church and the world in the long run? This is a suicidal view, not a wise or moral view.

I think such a vision cowardly and non-Christian quite frankly. Nowhere in the bible are we told Christians can't be rulers, that we can't judge between ourselves how our communities ought to operate. That we can't have standards. That we can't have a society. Indeed that's part of the point of the Church to be something separate and other than Non-Christians. Why do we have to submit ourselves as dhimmis to the standards and rules of others in political matters if our way of life and view of the world is better?

You're not really speaking biblically or connection to anything from the Christian tradition. Your speaking a subject or slave of secularism and the current elite who foster this sort of attitude. There's nothing noble or pious in it.

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Is that what you understood from those scriptures I posted. Wow , no wonder you and I have completely different view how a Christian should live their life.

miamited said:

How in the world anyone could even conceive that a nation built by men could achieve such a great thing, is beyond me.

God bless,
Ted

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Does God not use the nations of men to his own ends? Are the lives of Christians throughout history insignificant and mean nothing to God? When Alfred defended England from the Vikings, did God simply not care? Does that not in anyway figure into the plan of God throughout history?

What would you have preferred to have happened in history? No Christian nation be established? Then you would not be a Christian today. That's the simple truth of the matter.

Tiberius Lee said:

Is that what you understood from those scriptures I posted. Wow , no wonder you and I have completely different view how a Christian should live their life.

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Well no, my view is not bound to the scripture alone. Yet I don't see my ideas being contradicted in scripture. The Apostles ruled themselves. Paul told Christians to judge between themselves rather than go to the Roman courts. Paul even upheld the authority of the state to judge wrongdoers. Does that change the moment a Christian is in charge? It's okay for Caesar to punish wrongdoers and enact law, but when Constantine or Theodosius does it that's intolerable?

So long as you understand what you're advocating we can move on. You advocating the idea that Christians can be nothing more in this world, but servants and slaves to non-Christians in power. That they might never, for any reason whatsoever, seek their own interests. That any such endeavour in the past was evil and mistaken. This leads to some uncomfortable questions. Were the shoguns wrong to slaughter their Christian subjects? Had they the opportunity Japanese Christians might have taken power one day, especially if the Emperor converted. That is far more wicked than the Shinto Shoguns being in charge. Thus didn't they have the objective duty to kill and root out ruthlessly every follower of Christ in Japan and make them step on the image of Christ?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Well no, my view is not bound to the scripture alone. Yet I don't see my ideas being contradicted in scripture. The Apostles ruled themselves. Paul told Christians to judge between themselves rather than go to the Roman courts. Paul even upheld the authority of the state to judge wrongdoers. Does that change the moment a Christian is in charge? It's okay for Caesar to punish wrongdoers and enact law, but when Constantine or Theodosius does it that's intolerable?

So long as you understand what you're advocating we can move on. You advocating the idea that Christians can be nothing more in this world, but servants and slaves to non-Christians in power. That they might never, for any reason whatsoever, seek their own interests. That any such endeavour in the past was evil and mistaken. This leads to some uncomfortable questions. Were the shoguns wrong to slaughter their Christian subjects? Had they the opportunity Japanese Christians might have taken power one day, especially if the Emperor converted. That is far more wicked than the Shinto Shoguns being in charge. Thus didn't they have the objective duty to kill and root out ruthlessly every follower of Christ in Japan and make them step on the image of Christ?

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I am not advocating anything. I am just presenting scripture.

I am not interested what man made theology has to say. Unless you can back up your idea from scripture, I have ZERO interest. I think I told you that before.

Tiberius Lee said:

I am not advocating anything. I am just presenting scripture.

I am not interested what man made theology has to say. Unless you can back up your idea from scripture, I have ZERO interest. I think I told you that before.

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Well no, you're advocating a view contra mine. It is therefore necessary to ask what then is it permissible for a Christian to do or to be in any given society. What can the Christian do politically in your opinion? Nothing if I were to judge by your opinions thus far. He cannot advocate his interests or the interests of his community or children. He must be a subject to others. He is not fit to rule despite the Apostle saying that it is legitimate if non-Christians rule. Christians therefore are truly a servant caste of society.

But, If you disagree with the above and he can advocate for policies or ideas that are in his interest, what is your problem what what I say? What is your problem with my criticism of the current western world?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Well no, you're advocating a view contra mine. It is therefore necessary to ask what then is it permissible for a Christian to do or to be in any given society. What can the Christian do politically in your opinion? Nothing if I were to judge by your opinions thus far. He cannot advocate his interests or the interests of his community or children. He must be a subject to others. He is not fit to rule despite the Apostle saying that it is legitimate if non-Christians rule. Christians therefore are truly a servant caste of society.

But, If you disagree with the above and he can advocate for policies or ideas that are in his interest, what is your problem what what I say? What is your problem with my criticism of the current western world?

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I believe New Zealand is a free country like USA , you can criticize as much as you want.

But just so you know the world is lot bigger then the so called “ Western World” , may be visit some other part of the world which are not part of the West.

By the way , a true Christian is not a servant of anything but “Children of God” . Christ paid the penalty with his blood and made us FREE. if you are “Children of God” then you wouldn't consider yourself a servant.

Tiberius Lee said:

The western value, Judeo-Christian culture has ZERO impact on how Christianity works.

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We're likely going to have to agree to disagree on this. In a Christian country, children growing up might go to private Christian schools and receive a solid foundation for their lives and beliefs. Children growing up in a Christian country are far more likely to hear the Word of God, and more often. It's just common sense that there is more opportunity for seed to sprout as it is more readily available.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Given a choice, why would you not prefer people grow up learning that instead of learning that there are 57 genders?

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

We clearly do have different ideas of ministering. You seem to think all power is used for evil purposes and that Christians are inherently untrustworthy when it comes to power. better to have an Atheist be our ruler, I am sure they will respect our wishes and not seek to impose themselves on us. They would never for instance insist schools be secular and if your children don't go to these institutions or receive an approved curricula they will take them away from you. Because clearly that is a better standard than the idea of teaching Christianity first, or holding a classical view of things, including education.

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Oh, where to begin? I have no idea what you're going on about, this all power is used for evil purposes, etc. I think I have been clear earlier that I don't expect nor rely on the public school system to teach my children about the things of God. As I believe I also mentioned earlier, I would be wary of what 'denominational doctrine' they were teaching them. When I went to school back in the 60's, we always had fish in the cafeteria on Fridays. Why do you suppose that was? It was always fish sticks on Friday. Why?

Well, I'll tell you why. Because the RCC, much like they did centuries earlier in Europe gained enough power in many of the school boards to 'force' the schools to follow the practices of the RCC. That meat should not be eaten on Friday in honor of some silly idea that they had about Jesus eating fish with his disciples, although I don't know how they figured it to be Friday. But in their minds, because Jesus ate fish with his disciples, supposedly on Friday, then all believers ought to eat fish on Friday. I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in my children learning or adhering to the practices of the RCC.

So, I'm all for public schools staying out of the teaching of God. The second reason is because IF the public schools start teaching about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, guess what? Soon the Muslims will insist that they also teach their children about the teachings of Muhammed. The Mormons will insist that we teach them about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. The Hindus will want their children to be taught about the ways of Samsara. Where will it end? No!! I insist that my children be taught the ways of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by someone who knows and has trusted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

You seem to think that we can ignore the political and that it won't come after us.

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I never said that. Although I'm pretty confident that there will come a day that many political issues may well 'come after us'. However, for those resting in the Lord and his promises, they won't prevail against us. But yes, I believe that most people understand the days of great tribulation as have never been seen before or ever will be again, to be days in which society at large, political systems worldwide, will be persecuting believers. And I am absolutely ok with that because Jesus told us that when we are persecuted for his name's sake, we should rejoice, for it is an assurance of our salvation. He told his disciples that when we see these things taking place, we should look up and rejoice because his return is right around the corner.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

You are not allowed to criticize, from a Christian perspective homosexuality without being punished.

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Beyond just saying that it is a sin against God's desires for us, I don't criticize homosexuality. Of course, I don't generally hang out in such groups. If a friend or acquaintance of mine is caught up in the lust of homosexuality, or certainly a brother in the Lord, I will tell them that the life they are living is sinful in the eyes of God. But I'm not foolish enough to think that I should go out and stand on the street corner waving flags and holding up banners condemning the practice to a lost world. Gee, if I were to do that I'd have to have a sign as big as a 2 story building to list all of the sins that the world embraces and then no one would have the time to read it as they passed.

Let me ask you. Do you have any evidence that Jesus went about Greece telling them of all the sins that they were committing? How about Paul. Do we have evidences of Paul going into the lost world as he spread the news of Jesus, and railing at them about their sinfulness? I suppose, again, that it would be futile for me to ask you for any Scriptural references. You haven't yet answered my last request for such evidences. You throw out some claim that back in the first centuries some christians were apparently involved in such endeavors, but never quite offer any verifiable proof of such.

As a matter of fact, when Paul spoke of sinful activities, he was pretty careful to delineate what we should do about it in the world, and what we should do about it among the believers. I will say again that any christian trying to go out and make people live by God's law, without going through the first two steps that Jesus explained to us, isn't doing anything for the kingdom of heaven. It may make you feel better about your community. It may make you feel so very righteous in the sight of God. But, even if you could get everyone to follow the law of God, you wouldn't be doing anything for God's kingdom.

Anyway, I think we've likely beaten this horse to it's last breath, so I'm going to get my shovel and start digging the grave.

God bless,
Ted

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Does God not use the nations of men to his own ends?

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You mean like did He raise up Hitler to slaughter 6 million Jews? Idi Amin to kill off a lot of his own people? Pol Pot to slaughter half the nation of Cambodia? Josef Stalin who it is claimed is responsible for more than 50 million deaths?

No! What God's word says is that He establishes nations, not that He uses all of them to accomplish 'His own ends'. Although, there are a few that He has used to accomplish his ends. Egypt and Babylon come directly to mind.

God bless,
Ted

Tiberius Lee said:

I believe New Zealand is a free country like USA , you can criticize as much as you want.

But just so you know the world is lot bigger then the so called “ Western World” , may be visit some other part of the world which are not part of the West.

By the way , a true Christian is not a servant of anything but “Children of God” . Christ paid the penalty with his blood and made us FREE. if you are “Children of God” then you wouldn't consider yourself a servant.

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It's not that I consider myself a servant, though I am a servant of Christ, it's that your logic ultimately renders you, in political terms a servant to the non-Christian ruling class. If you oppose any attempt by Christians to do anything which is in their favour politically, you render yourself powerless. In education, in your defense, in your culture and in the society you live in. If the President decided that it was intolerable for children to be taught Christianity instead of being free to choose when they were of a proper age, you have no argument against them or cause to stop the President. You don't have a right to rule yourself and you have no right to oppose anyone who is non-Christian that rules you. For any reason whatsoever.

You rely purely on the grace of those who do not have your interests at heart. That is foolish. Unless you disagree with the premise, that yes, you do have legitimate interests. In which case you can legitimate exert those interests politically.

New Zealand, much like the rest of the Western world is only as free as what is tolerated. Christianity, if it were to truly challenge NZ society would quickly become intolerable for the average New Zealander. My views are not typical and I don't express them freely. The idea of freedom, that any state guarantees all freedoms is an illusion. I suspect this is part of our disagreement. You believe in Western Liberal democracy. I do not.

miamited said:

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

You mean like did He raise up Hitler to slaughter 6 million Jews? Idi Amin to kill off a lot of his own people? Pol Pot to slaughter half the nation of Cambodia? Josef Stalin who it is claimed is responsible for more than 50 million deaths?

No! What God's word says is that He establishes nations, not that He uses all of them to accomplish 'His own ends'. Although, there are a few that He has used to accomplish his ends. Egypt and Babylon come directly to mind.

God bless,
Ted

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Ah, so all leaders and nations are to be compared to Hitler and the Haulocaust. That's rather interesting. I guess we should consider every Christian King that lived on the level of Hitler then? King Alfred, in killing those poor Vikings, what a monster.

If you consider this to be the case then there can be no arguing here. Not all rulers were comparable to secular totalitarian regimes like the ones you mentioned. I dare say no Christian King ever came close to horrors of what a secular man like Hitler or Stalin did. Can you think of one?

miamited said:

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi



Oh, where to begin? I have no idea what you're going on about, this all power is used for evil purposes, etc. I think I have been clear earlier that I don't expect nor rely on the public school system to teach my children about the things of God. As I believe I also mentioned earlier, I would be wary of what 'denominational doctrine' they were teaching them. When I went to school back in the 60's, we always had fish in the cafeteria on Fridays. Why do you suppose that was? It was always fish sticks on Friday. Why?

Well, I'll tell you why. Because the RCC, much like they did centuries earlier in Europe gained enough power in many of the school boards to 'force' the schools to follow the practices of the RCC. That meat should not be eaten on Friday in honor of some silly idea that they had about Jesus eating fish with his disciples, although I don't know how they figured it to be Friday. But in their minds, because Jesus ate fish with his disciples, supposedly on Friday, then all believers ought to eat fish on Friday. I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in my children learning or adhering to the practices of the RCC.

So, I'm all for public schools staying out of the teaching of God. The second reason is because IF the public schools start teaching about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, guess what? Soon the Muslims will insist that they also teach their children about the teachings of Muhammed. The Mormons will insist that we teach them about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. The Hindus will want their children to be taught about the ways of Samsara. Where will it end? No!! I insist that my children be taught the ways of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by someone who knows and has trusted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

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You privately doing what you want is irrelevant. The vast majority of people will follow the system that is designed for them. That system is not designed to encourage Christianity in any form or fashion. You have an opposition to the RCC, but what would you prefer? A Catholic educated population or the current secular educated population?

Regarding Muslims and fairness, we don't have to respect Muslims or atheists. Especially if Christians gradually gained control again. it's a mistake to think in terms of liberal fairness or the equality of all religions under the law. This only undermines Christianity and can only continue to do so in the current system. Your argument is evidence of this. You don't want religion taught and so no religion will be taught. The culture as a result of forced secular education cannot therefore magically become more Christian. You've removed what was a fundamental aspect of education in the Christian west centuries beforehand. Christianity.

Ironically, with your standard, you only further atheism or non belief in general. Christianity literally doesn't matter enough to you to be taught to others. It's actually true in your worldview therefore it cannot be taught to others. This is an attitude Christians have to abandon if they want to have any effect on the culture going forward. Naturally it has to start within the Churches.

miamited said:

I never said that. Although I'm pretty confident that there will come a day that many political issues may well 'come after us'. However, for those resting in the Lord and his promises, they won't prevail against us. But yes, I believe that most people understand the days of great tribulation as have never been seen before or ever will be again, to be days in which society at large, political systems worldwide, will be persecuting believers. And I am absolutely ok with that because Jesus told us that when we are persecuted for his name's sake, we should rejoice, for it is an assurance of our salvation. He told his disciples that when we see these things taking place, we should look up and rejoice because his return is right around the corner.

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None of this prohibits us from seeking our interests politically or seeking to influence society in a positive manner.

miamited said:

Let me ask you. Do you have any evidence that Jesus went about Greece telling them of all the sins that they were committing? How about Paul. Do we have evidences of Paul going into the lost world as he spread the news of Jesus, and railing at them about their sinfulness? I suppose, again, that it would be futile for me to ask you for any Scriptural references. You haven't yet answered my last request for such evidences. You throw out some claim that back in the first centuries some christians were apparently involved in such endeavors, but never quite offer any verifiable proof of such.



God bless,
Ted

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Do you think Paul would have tolerated those under him engaging in sinful practices of the society around them and not hold each other to account?

As for verifiable proof of what the early Church did, I thought this was common knowledge. Paul excommunicated a man for sleeping with his Father's wife. St Cyprian in the second century was furious when he discovered that men and women were sharing sleeping quarters, despite the women being consecrated virgins. Christians did not partake in the sacrifices to Caeaser and this more than anything offended the society around them.

What specific practice do you think I have made up here?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

what would you prefer? A Catholic educated population or the current secular educated population?

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This is the crux of the argument. If you aren't supporting one, then you're supporting the other. Get off the fence and make a choice, do you want Christianity or do you want atheism? Atheists will deny it, but atheism is a religion too, certainly secular humanism is. Christians are cowed into remaining silent while schools indoctrinate their children. Maybe the churches should have had a bigger hand in education instead of the state. But the state is the new god for many in the modern west.

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Ah, so all leaders and nations are to be compared to Hitler and the Haulocaust.

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You really don't process information well. No, I'm not saying that all nation leaders need be compared to Hitler and other pretty nasty leaders. I'm just countering your claim that:

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Does God not use the nations of men to his own ends?

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I said that yes, He can. But no, I don't believe that based on these various nation leaders that I mentioned, that we can just take that as an across the board fact that God uses the nations of men for His purposes. And so to bring this back around to the point that was being made:

miamited said:

How in the world anyone could even conceive that a nation built by men could achieve such a great thing, is beyond me.

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There have not been any nations of the world, that are particularly beholden to God. God created Israel and God stood as their king, until the wickedness of the people caused them to ask for a king like all the other nations had. My point was that even Israel was not able to remain faithful and beholden to God. Therefore, for one to expect that some nation created by men could do it, would seem, to me, quite an impossible task.

Now, there are nations that give a nod to God. The U.S., Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and many others include God in their preambles or founding documents, but the people, the folks who are living in those nations, are all just about as wicked as any other, overall. There are some born again believers in every one of them, I'm sure, but the majority of the populations are lost people doing lost things.

Please, please. Stop putting words in my mouth, so to speak. You keep telling me that you believe that I'm just all hunky dory OK with the wickedness of the world. No I'm not. But I've read the book and so I know that it's happening and will get much, much worse.

God bless,
Ted

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Do you think Paul would have tolerated those under him engaging in sinful practices of the society around them and not hold each other to account?

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No, but that was what I said. Paul held different standards for those under him, just as I would and do. I expect believers to act like believers. But we're not talking about believers overall. We're talking about nations of people. People who, for the most part, are certainly not born again believers. Yes, Paul did write that those outside of the 'church' were going to do lost things and that we had to live among them.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 1 Corinthians 5:12

What business is it of yours to judge those outside the church. That's what Paul wrote, if we personalize it to ourselves.

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi



No, but that was what I said. Paul held different standards for those under him, just as I would and do. I expect believers to act like believers. But we're not talking about believers overall. We're talking about nations of people. People who, for the most part, are certainly not born again believers. Yes, Paul did write that those outside of the 'church' were going to do lost things and that we had to live among them.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 1 Corinthians 5:12

What business is it of yours to judge those outside the church. That's what Paul wrote, if we personalize it to ourselves.

God bless,
Ted

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This is an actual relevant verse for once instead of a series of verses loosely exhibited. What indeed should the Church care for those outside of it? What should happen, as happened historically if the Church inherits the authority of those who once hated them? As was the case of Rome? Is the Christian still supposed to let themselves be unable to judge the Pagan? For instance, Constantine was he illegitimate when he dispensed justice to a Pagan because it wasn't his place as a Christian? Or was what Paul said about the authorities and their rightful power to judge people for their actions applicable to Constantine?

I have thought about this at great length and I cannot come to any other conclusion than you are wrong in your interpretation if it leads you to thinking Christians must abstain from all power and self interest and subject themselves entirely to the whims of others. The problems are too insurmountable to overcome and if all Christian authority since the fourth century has been illegitimate what does say about our faith and the supposed God who tolerated such evil? Why did God create the conditions which lead to the most unfit people on earth having authority in the first place via Christianity and it's teachings?

I would like your honest opinion, do you think it was a mistake for the Spanish to resist Muslim rule? Should they, by your standards, if they wanted to be true faithful Christians, have given up their kingdoms without a struggle?