Finnish Christian On Trial For Quoting The Bible On Twitter: ‘God Is Working’

miamited said:

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi



I don't think that you understand my position in this. Yes, absolutely! I see the culture falling deeper and deeper into rebellion and sin against God. BUT, I don't find that alarming because the Scriptures tell me that it's what I should be expecting to see, AS WE GET CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE RETURN OF THE LORD!!! I also don't find any solace in someone saying that this time of malaise and wickedness has come because Christians aren't doing their job right. You have yet to answer my question that I put to you several posts ago:


I mean, that's your claim right? Christianity is not thriving upon the earth because christians aren't doing what you think they should be doing. That they are losing ground because of their inability to assert the law of God over all mankind.

You seem to be decrying that a reality has come that those who understand the Scriptures have always expected to come, and for those anxiously awaiting the return of the Lord, know that these days have to come before he's going to return. You seem to think that world history will just go on forever and ever and ever and the truths of the last days will never come to pass if 'christians' would just do their job!

Friend, there is no scenario in the Scriptures where the world is overtaken by love and prosperity and peace because christians are out forcing mankind to live under the law of God. No!!! Not at all!! We individually have peace because we have peace with God through our acceptance and understanding of the gospel, but the world? The world??? The world is going to continue to wax more wicked and wicked and wicked until the day that God steps up from His throne and declares, "Enough!!! Son, go get your children!!! The time has come! The wickedness of the world is now as bad as I'm going to allow it to get!!!" You don't seem to understand that if the world doesn't go wicked, then God's final decree is never going to come to pass.

Now, do I like that it is more and more wicked? Nope. Do I see that each generation from way back in time has become more and more wicked than the one before? Yep. But I've read Paul's words to the Roman believers.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

What you are witnessing is the working out of a world in which we are sexually depraved. Even our women do things that are detestable as sexual practices. The minds of those of the world are depraved. The people of the world have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. As a people we have become gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, boastful. Inventing new ways of doing evil all the time. The world's people have no understanding, no fidelity, no love and no mercy. You've been warned of these days from ages past, but you think these days have come upon us because christians just aren't asserting the ways of God enough. God will not be mocked!! These days are coming upon us because the world has always hated God and as our populations grow exponentially that hate is manifest in all these ways of wickedness that Paul has written to us about.

Then Paul writes to Timothy. Telling him clearly that the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

We have all been warned that these days are coming and while godly believers would like it to be otherwise, it isn't what God's word has revealed to us. They're going to come and when they have run their course...Jesus will return!!! Praise God!!!

So again, my encouragement to you is to do what Jesus has asked of you:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

God bless,
Ted

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Welp, you're getting the world you desire Miamited. It's becoming a less Christian world as you let everyone with emnity towards Christ and Christianity take control.

I dunno though, doesn't seem like a world that's all that good to me. Seems like Christians could do something if they determined to, but instead you seem to want to encourage the general resignation and surrender.

I see it like the example of old Israel. When the country worshipped the Lord, they were blessed. And when they fell away, they were sold into slavery. The US was once a mostly Christian country, but now it is falling into atheism and humanism. Seems to me that those who were here when this happened bear some responsibility.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Welp, you're getting the world you desire Miamited. It's becoming a less Christian world as you let everyone with emnity towards Christ and Christianity take control.

I dunno though, doesn't seem like a world that's all that good to me. Seems like Christians could do something if they determined to, but instead you seem to want to encourage the general resignation and surrender.

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Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

As I said, you don't understand my position.

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

As I said, you don't understand my position.

God bless,
Ted

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As I think you don't understand mine.

iarwain said:

God can do all things of course. But if there were no value to spreading the gospel, we wouldn't be called to spread it. A person growing up in 1950s America, attending church every week, would be much more likely to hear the gospel. As opposed to someone growing up now, who will instead be taught that there are 57 genders and you should pick one for yourself so you can join in the big parade with The Gender Unicorn during Pride month.

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Obviously as a Christian, we should spread the Gospel. I have been quoting mark 16:15-16 in Post # 44, #48 and #51.

We preach the Gospel and let Holy Spirit work in people’s . We don’t create “Christian nation”, or Christian society so people may come to Christ.

Problem today in the West is that rather then preaching the Gospel in the church , church leader are too egger to preach the “ doctrine of politics” , or our western values are Judeo-Christian culture. Church member are too egger to hate the liberal then actually live a Christian life among the liberals.

Pastor are more egger to support “Freedom-Convoy” then support discipleship program in the church. Church member like their Pastor preach how LGBT community destroying the fabric of our society then Jesus was dinning with prostitutes and sinner.

Christians in the West would rather go to court to get their “freedom” to publish Bible verse in School magazine then witness to the school principle who denied publishing Bible verse.

Christians in the West would rather go to court and force Nativity Set in town square then set an example of how to celebrate Christmas by spreading “Peace on earth” to the people of the town.

Christians would stand in front abortion clinic with a sign which says “ you are going to hell” , then talk to the woman who is having abortion and show compassion.

Christians would rather spend hours and hours about those people who believe in 57 gender then actually go on their knees and pray for them.

LGBT community is not the enemy, liberals who wants to abolish school-prayer is not the enemy, the doctor who perform abortion is not the enemy- Christ came to earth and died for all these people.

The enemy is

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
— Ephesians 6:12

On the other hand, under unthinkable persecution, Christianity is growing in Asia , Africa and South America , simply because Christian don’t depend on government policy or how to put down LGBT community or if government allow School-prayer in public school or not. Christian put their faith in Christ , and Christ alone.

In 2004 I visited some American “ English Teacher” in China. After working all day in public school they would go house to house and have prayer meeting. The local people who would host these prayer meeting, they would put their entire families live at risk for One Hour prayer meeting. This is how Christianity works under immense persecution.

This is how the early church spread the gospel, this is how the gospel are spread in 21st century.

The western value, Judeo-Christian culture has ZERO impact on how Christianity works.

Tiberius Lee said:

Obviously as a Christian, we should spread the Gospel. I have been quoting mark 16:15-16 in Post # 44, #48 and #51.

We preach the Gospel and let Holy Spirit work in people’s . We don’t create “Christian nation”, or Christian society so people may come to Christ.

Problem today in the West is that rather then preaching the Gospel in the church , church leader are too egger to preach the “ doctrine of politics” , or our western values are Judeo-Christian culture. Church member are too egger to hate the liberal then actually live a Christian life among the liberals.

Pastor are more egger to support “Freedom-Convoy” then support discipleship program in the church. Church member like their Pastor preach how LGBT community destroying the fabric of our society then Jesus was dinning with prostitutes and sinner.

Christians in the West would rather go to court to get their “freedom” to publish Bible verse in School magazine then witness to the school principle who denied publishing Bible verse.

Christians in the West would rather go to court and force Nativity Set in town square then set an example of how to celebrate Christmas by spreading “Peace on earth” to the people of the town.

Christians would stand in front abortion clinic with a sign which says “ you are going to hell” , then talk to the woman who is having abortion and show compassion.

Christians would rather spend hours and hours about those people who believe in 57 gender then actually go on their knees and pray for them.

LGBT community is not the enemy, liberals who wants to abolish school-prayer is not the enemy, the doctor who perform abortion is not the enemy- Christ came to earth and died for all these people.

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In socio political terms do Christians have no one who seeks to undermine them? I.e. enemies? All of these groups you list out are our enemies insofar as they seek to undermine Christianity. To refuse to recognize them as such is to foolishly put yourself at their mercy. In refusing to combat them and their claims they usurp places in society that Christians once held and this only continues to undermine Christianity. It's like saying you would support Maxentius over Constantine, despite the latter obviously being better for the Church.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

In socio political terms do Christians have no one who seeks to undermine them? I.e. enemies? All of these groups you list out are our enemies insofar as they seek to undermine Christianity. To refuse to recognize them as such is to foolishly put yourself at their mercy. In refusing to combat them and their claims they usurp places in society that Christians once held and this only continues to undermine Christianity. It's like saying you would support Maxentius over Constantine, despite the latter obviously being better for the Church.

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10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Tiberius Lee said:

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

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This is a nice verse but how does it give us any practical advice about what do about the decline of Christianity in the current world? How would you put the armour of God on in practical real life actions? I could offer a certain take on how we could implement it, but it would put us radically at odds with the wider society we live in. Few Christians seem willingly to utterly consider themselves separate from the wider society we find ourselves in though.

Also, if we can't recognize wider enemies within our midst and police ourselves, we open ourselves up for infiltration and those who would corrupt the faith. This is why the early Church was soon keen to root out heresy. They understood that when heresy tangles itself in the Church it effects the whole body. Why do you think Paul was so harsh with the Galatians? Or why Athanasius was so relentless in his criticisms of the Arians?

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I only comment on what I perceive things to be and the direction we're heading in and it's something you don't seem to be keen on discussing.

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I'm humored by your claim that I don't seem 'keen on discussing' this issue. We've been carrying on a fairly lengthy discussion. Prior to post #43, I count 5 responses that I've made to your complaint. So, honestly, when I read that comment that you've made about my not seeming to be 'keen on discussing' your complaint, what I'm actually hearing is that you believe that I'm not 'keen on coming over to your side of the discussion'. That, I would agree so far, is true.

You have yet to show me a single piece of Scripture that would provide us some evidence that God has ever expected the faith in His Son to 'thrive'. God usually speaks of those who are faithful to Him as a 'remnant'. Even Jesus, in speaking to the disciples before he ascended back to the Father, spoke of many, many christians who would be turned away. So, not only is the world going to be seen as soundly rejecting the truth of God, but likewise many christians, according to what God's Son has told us.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Those that Jesus turns away in this account were people seen as christians by men upon the earth. No other body of people does the things that are accounted for here 'in the name of Jesus'...than christians. You won't find Hindis driving out demons in the name of Jesus. You won't find Muslims performing miracles in the name of Jesus. You won't find atheists prophesying in the name of Jesus.

Jesus then tells his disciples that in the last days the love of most will grow cold. Well, love isn't something that born again believers will ever have 'growing cold', so those 'most' must also be the people of the world.

Personally, I just think you've misunderstood the work of God in His providing salvation to all mankind. It isn't ever going to be the most popular choice that all of mankind is going to make. In fact, if I'm understanding all of these pieces of Scripture, as we move inexorably closer to the last days, christian faith will probably be a very small minority of all the people of the world. Do I like that idea? No. But I have read the Scriptures and I know that they are true in all that they tell us. Therefore, I believe that we should not ever expect christian ideals or law to thrive, except among those who have been born again. And that subset of the population is going to get smaller and smaller in relative size as we move further and further into the future.

Consider please. In Israel, when Jesus was being prepared to make his sacrifice, most of Israel had no idea who he really was and the purpose that he was fulfilling. These are the people of God!!! The people brought out of Egypt on eagle's wings by great signs and miracles for which God said was to prove to them that He was their God. Yet 1,500 years later, very, very few Israelites understood what was happening in those moments. Despite the fact that God has told them that a Messiah was coming. Despite the fact that God had told them what little tiny city he would come from. Despite the fact that angels heralded his birth. Despite the fact that Daniel had written of a prophecy that was given to him by an angel telling them exactly 'when' the Messiah would be there. Despite all of these facts found in the Scriptures, that collection of words that Israel so painstakingly kept and watched over, God declared that His people had no understanding.

So, my encouragement, we let the world go the way that it has always been destined to go. However, each of us, born again believers in the work of the Christ for our salvation, should be about doing the work that Jesus has given us to do. To wit:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

That's the work that your Lord has given you to do. If we each one reach one, with the gospel of salvation through the Lord, Jesus, then we will see the love of Christ abound within our nations.

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi



I'm humored by your claim that I don't seem 'keen on discussing' this issue. We've been carrying on a fairly lengthy discussion. Prior to post #43, I count 5 responses that I've made to your complaint. So, honestly, when I read that comment that you've made about my not seeming to be 'keen on discussing' your complaint, what I'm actually hearing is that you believe that I'm not 'keen on coming over to your side of the discussion'. That, I would agree so far, is true.

You have yet to show me a single piece of Scripture that would provide us some evidence that God has ever expected the faith in His Son to 'thrive'. God usually speaks of those who are faithful to Him as a 'remnant'. Even Jesus, in speaking to the disciples before he ascended back to the Father, spoke of many, many christians who would be turned away. So, not only is the world going to be seen as soundly rejecting the truth of God, but likewise many christians, according to what God's Son has told us.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Those that Jesus turns away in this account were people seen as christians by men upon the earth. No other body of people does the things that are accounted for here 'in the name of Jesus'...than christians. You won't find Hindis driving out demons in the name of Jesus. You won't find Muslims performing miracles in the name of Jesus. You won't find atheists prophesying in the name of Jesus.

Jesus then tells his disciples that in the last days the love of most will grow cold. Well, love isn't something that born again believers will ever have 'growing cold', so those 'most' must also be the people of the world.

Personally, I just think you've misunderstood the work of God in His providing salvation to all mankind. It isn't ever going to be the most popular choice that all of mankind is going to make. In fact, if I'm understanding all of these pieces of Scripture, as we move inexorably closer to the last days, christian faith will probably be a very small minority of all the people of the world. Do I like that idea? No. But I have read the Scriptures and I know that they are true in all that they tell us. Therefore, I believe that we should not ever expect christian ideals or law to thrive, except among those who have been born again. And that subset of the population is going to get smaller and smaller in relative size as we move further and further into the future.

Consider please. In Israel, when Jesus was being prepared to make his sacrifice, most of Israel had no idea who he really was and the purpose that he was fulfilling. These are the people of God!!! The people brought out of Egypt on eagle's wings by great signs and miracles for which God said was to prove to them that He was their God. Yet 1,500 years later, very, very few Israelites understood what was happening in those moments. Despite the fact that God has told them that a Messiah was coming. Despite the fact that God had told them what little tiny city he would come from. Despite the fact that angels heralded his birth. Despite the fact that Daniel had written of a prophecy that was given to him by an angel telling them exactly 'when' the Messiah would be there. Despite all of these facts found in the Scriptures, that collection of words that Israel so painstakingly kept and watched over, God declared that His people had no understanding.

So, my encouragement, we let the world go the way that it has always been destined to go. However, each of us, born again believers in the work of the Christ for our salvation, should be about doing the work that Jesus has given us to do. To wit:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

That's the work that your Lord has given you to do. If we each one reach one, with the gospel of salvation through the Lord, Jesus, then we will see the love of Christ abound within our nations.

God bless,
Ted

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Miamited, did Christianity thrive previously in history? Do you think that history is of so little consequence as to part of the reason why you and me both are Christians? I don't need the bible to say that Christianity should thrive, all I need is common sense to want the good to thrive instead of the bad. What is the alternative? Decay, destruction, death and futility of the good. The rise and ascendance of the bad. That has practical consequences and saying you're above it all and that we should just accept without resistance the current society is not a prospect that ends well.

You seem content with such decline and even want to revel in it. Any attempt to question the current status quo you consider an attack on the faith and as such you don't seek to challenge the current hegemony of non-Christian forces in the average person's life. If you believe it's wrong to seek to implement Christianity within society, then you're in luck. You are winning. Christianity is dying, in part to people like you who refuse to question the current system. People whose interests align against Christianity are taking over all aspects of society which Christianity once had influence on and then we see people shocked that there are less Christians in the world? It's almost as if people raised in a certain culture will adopt that culture's mores and way of being. This is okay for non-Christians to do, but the moment Christians, like my Christian ancestors, sought to implement Christianity practically in the lives of people it's wrong?

If you want to live in a monastery that rejects the world completely you can do so, but the average layman is not forbidden in seeking change in the temporal way of things. To discourage them is not to be holy, it's to be weak.

When I look at the Apostles or the early Christians of the first three centuries. I don't see men content with the situation, who would not change things even if they had the power. I vigorous critique of the established Roman system and a dedication to a way of life which would thwart the influence that Roman system has on Christians as much as possible. Yet Christians today are utterly hostile to such notions of being considered apart from the general society.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

This is a nice verse but how does it give us any practical advice about what do about the decline of Christianity in the current world? How would you put the armour of God on in practical real life actions? I could offer a certain take on how we could implement it, but it would put us radically at odds with the wider society we live in. Few Christians seem willingly to utterly consider themselves separate from the wider society we find ourselves in though.

Also, if we can't recognize wider enemies within our midst and police ourselves, we open ourselves up for infiltration and those who would corrupt the faith. This is why the early Church was soon keen to root out heresy. They understood that when heresy tangles itself in the Church it effects the whole body. Why do you think Paul was so harsh with the Galatians? Or why Athanasius was so relentless in his criticisms of the Arians?

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If you are looking for “practical advice” to implement in real world then religious books, especially Bible is not the book you go to.

After all the Story of Bible is this – a invisible person call himself God created Heaven and Earth from nothing in 6 days , after sometimes He though the creation he created not good enough so He sent rain to destroy the creation but save handful people and animal in a boat. After thousand years of that story a Virgin woman gave birth to a little buy who claim to be God, then the little boy grew up and died on the cross and rose from the dead and saved everyone who chose to believe in him.

Do you see the irony of trying to find “ practical advise” from this book?

If you are looking for practical advise to “thrive” , you are in wrong religion.

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Miamited, did Christianity thrive previously in history?

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I don't know, I'm not really confident that there was ever a period in world history, since Jesus started the work of building his 'church', that we could say that christianity has ever thrived, as a global faith. Yes, there have been areas and times when christianity grew rapidly. In Paul's day, we read of many who came to faith in a fairly short amount of time, but I think if we stack the actual numbers against the world's population at the time, it wouldn't be considered 'thriving'. At Pentecost we read of a great multitude coming to faith, but 5,000, while a huge number at one time, doesn't really put a big dent in the world's population. Remember that of those 5,000, many were from other nations. They had come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover, as the Jews from all over the world tried to do for that one feast of the year.

So, I'd argue that 'thrive' likely isn't a good definer of the growth of christianity at any time in world history. However, let's consider man's natural bent towards sin. God created a perfect realm for mankind to live and it was very quickly disturbed by the introduction of sin because man is so frail in temptation. Eve ate the fruit and then also gave it to Adam, and it begins. Within just some 1,500 years mankinds bent to sin became so bad that God despaired over having ever even created mankind and wiped out everyone on the earth, except for 8 people. From there Noah and his progeny repopulated the world, but again, a few hundred years later and mankind was building a ziggurat that would reach to the heavens, obviously against God's will for them and He once again stepped in and confounded the ways of man.

Then called Abram of Ur and within a few years God was raining down fire and brimstone upon the earth to cleanse the earth of some of the rampant sin. Even Abram, when God called him, didn't seem to really know God. God had to explain to him who He was. Then we move forward a few hundred more years and God brings His people out of Egypt and within months they are building a golden calf to be their God and once again God destroyed a lot of His people because of the rampant growth of sin.

Then we follow through the history of the nation of Israel. God was established to be their king, but they wanted a king like all the other nations had. Sin! As the line of kings reigned in Israel we find that the majority of the time God was condemning them and decrying that their sin was very, very great. Sin! Throughout those many, many years of rebellion God worked out His plan of salvation through His people, but they didn't even know who Jesus was when he came. Sin!

Jesus came and after 3 years of traveling through every city and nook of Israel, he was crucified. Most of Israel still didn't grasp what was going on. Sin and rebellion against their very own God! Then the apostles carried out the plan of Jesus to develop and grow the 'church' upon the earth. The 'church' for which Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. And they haven't. But man's bent to sin has continued. Starting off from a good strong position and then through rebellion and, what God referred to as 'stiff-necked-ism', people quickly began to fall away from the true worship and praise and obedience of the one true and living God.

Well, I'm here to tell you that man's nature has never changed. We are still seeing, that as we move further and further away from the truth that Jesus established as the gospel 2,000 years ago, man is slipping more and more into sin and rebellion against God. It is just the natural bent of mankind. Even God, in establishing the nation of Israel. A nation of people who would be His people and do His bidding, wasn't able to keep the nation pure and holy. Man's heart is wicked!!!! Who can know it?

Sure, all believers want the good to survive and bad to decay. Even unbelievers, as a whole, want the good to survive and the bad to decay. But that isn't what the Scriptures tell us is the truth of the working out of this age of God's creating.

God created a realm in which man could live and thrive. He created this realm with a purpose in mind and that purpose is found in the Revelation. He is one day going to stop life in this realm and call all mankind to judgment and take some, who have been faithful to Him, to be with Him to live an eternal existence with Him. Every other human being that ever lived on the face of the earth will be cast in the darkness that Jesus spoke of. Trust me or not, the Scriptures seem to be fairly clear that those cast into the darkness are going to far outweigh those who share in God's promise of eternal life with Him. Oh, it will still be an uncountable number, as we are now reaching 6,000 years of God's working to save a remnant of mankind for Himself. But the lost will largely outnumber the saved.

Remember what Jesus said about the gates? One gate is broad and wide and many there be that pass that way. The other gate is narrow and straight and few there be that find it.

God bless,
Ted

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

You seem content with such decline and even want to revel in it. Any attempt to question the current status quo you consider an attack on the faith and as such you don't seek to challenge the current hegemony of non-Christian forces in the average person's life.

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This is where I know that you just don't understand. No! I'm not 'content' with such decline, but I know that the word of God is true. It will decline!!!!!!! No! I don't consider an attempt to question the current status quo as an attack...I consider it lack of wisdom, if it is a believer who is bringing up the question. They, quite obviously, haven't understood what God has told them is going to be happening in this age as we move closer and closer to Jesus' return. They just don't understand.

Further I am concerned about those who espouse such an idea that, quite frankly, could only come about if christians were to become militant among the lost people of the world. I am absolutely confident that there is not a single new covenant example where we are instructed, taught, see an example of, militancy being a part of a believer's life upon the earth. We are to be 'wise' (that's a mind and thought thing) as serpents. Gentle (that's an action thing)as doves. We are to share the gospel in love not militancy.

I believe that for the majority of God's people, if we are able to share the gospel, and receive acceptance of it with a handful of people in our lives, we will have been good and faithful servants. Jesus told the parable of the workers and the talents. To the first the master gave five talents. To the second three and to the third one. Both the first and the second went out and put the talent (the gospel) to work and earned a return. The third hid it away, not spending it and earning a return. He was declared a wicked servant and cast out. My encouragement again, to you, is to take your talent (the gospel) and share it. Let the world go in the way that the world has always been prophesied to go, but you be one of the good and faithful servants.

God bless,
Ted

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

If you want to live in a monastery that rejects the world completely you can do so, but the average layman is not forbidden in seeking change in the temporal way of things. To discourage them is not to be holy, it's to be weak.

When I look at the Apostles or the early Christians of the first three centuries. I don't see men content with the situation, who would not change things even if they had the power. I vigorous critique of the established Roman system and a dedication to a way of life which would thwart the influence that Roman system has on Christians as much as possible. Yet Christians today are utterly hostile to such notions of being considered apart from the general society.

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Look. None of that composition comes from the Scriptures. I have no idea where you get this idea that the first apostles were somehow out trying to change world systems. Or whatever it is that you're saying the first apostles set out to do. As for the 'church' for the first 300 years. Other than the rise of RCC system of religion which was and has always been a very militant religion, I would also disagree. In fact, we read of a period shortly after the work of the first apostles when christians were cowed and hid their faith practices from the population and the governments. It's my understanding that's where the sign of the fish came from to represent our faith. No, the early christians never once are shown to have worked in some way to overthrow the practices of the general population.

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

Hi again @Ignatius the Kiwi



Look. None of that composition comes from the Scriptures. I have no idea where you get this idea that the first apostles were somehow out trying to change world systems. Or whatever it is that you're saying the first apostles set out to do. As for the 'church' for the first 300 years. Other than the rise of RCC system of religion which was and has always been a very militant religion, I would also disagree. In fact, we read of a period shortly after the work of the first apostles when christians were cowed and hid their faith practices from the population and the governments. It's my understanding that's where the sign of the fish came from to represent our faith. No, the early christians never once are shown to have worked in some way to overthrow the practices of the general population.

God bless,
Ted

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Insofar as the Apostles sought to convert souls yes, they were trying to change things in the world. Notably they tried to undermine Paganism by advocating Jesus Christ. This was demonstrated in visible practices like abstaining from certain foods, refusing to sacrifice to Caesar, refusing even to read and engage with certain people, ideas and books. It was only natural that if Christians ever got power, like they did historically, they would use that power to abolish Paganism as did the righteous rulers of Israel once did. Yet I'm supposed to believe that this was a bad thing for the Church to do, that they were supposed to be like us, and tolerate degenerate abominations like animal sacrifice. Yet if they had done that, the Christian world we are inheritors of would not have existed.

It's interesting how the early Christians are always mentioned in this context but no one looks at what they did and thinks we can put into practice today, what they themselves did. Why? Because that would put against society in a radical way that not many are comfortable with. Would you be willing to abstain from certain popular activities? Would you be willing to excommunicate members? Have a long catechism which actually tested converts and their ability to stay? Would we be willing to in our professional lives live according to the Gospel as much as possible even if it ran against the grain of the common secular morality we find ourselves living in? Would we be willing to strictly regulate Church marriages and punish violations as the early Christians did? They took these matters very seriously and because they took these matters seriously they managed to overcome the empire with their virtue and dedication.

The Apostles and the early Christians did all these things. At the same time they were not revolutionaries who thought of violent overthrowal of the powers at be as their leading cause. My contention is that it was a good thing that it happened. If you think it was a bad thing, that those Christians who complied with 'the world' as it were in assuming power which was always regarded as legitimate by Christians regardless of who held it, then you're part of them. You view yourself as something fundamentally separate to that entity.

I like the concise replies Miamited. Please try to keep them like this in the future.

Tiberius Lee said:

If you are looking for “practical advice” to implement in real world then religious books, especially Bible is not the book you go to.

After all the Story of Bible is this – a invisible person call himself God created Heaven and Earth from nothing in 6 days , after sometimes He though the creation he created not good enough so He sent rain to destroy the creation but save handful people and animal in a boat. After thousand years of that story a Virgin woman gave birth to a little buy who claim to be God, then the little boy grew up and died on the cross and rose from the dead and saved everyone who chose to believe in him.

Do you see the irony of trying to find “ practical advise” from this book?

If you are looking for practical advise to “thrive” , you are in wrong religion.

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Except the bible does offer plenty of practical advice we as Christians today simply won't follow. The bible is not an idealistic handbook of ideas that will never materialize into reality, but something much more than that. I don't believe we have it for no purpose, as much as I don't believe we have the entire Christian tradition for no purpose.

If thriving is not a desirable state, what is the desirable state we ought to seek here in the world? Mere neutrality in the face of adversity? That's fine for certain people but that has real life consequences and not all of them are good. If the Spanish had been neutral or uncaring about their Islamic neighbors in Al Andulus Spain would have been a Muslim country today. If King Alfred had acted as you do, and not concern himself with worldly affairs like running his kingdom, he would have abandoned his thrown and lived as a farmer. England might very well be a Pagan Empire instead of a Christian one.

Why is there is immediate knee jerk reaction against people who seek something better than the current status quo? Is it based on theology purely? Or something else? Many Christians in the past would agree with me and find your ideas rather absurd. Calvin didn't think it above himself to rule Geneva according to certain Christian standards. Why do you think this is an impossibility or something we can't entertain? Honestly? Why?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Except the bible does offer plenty of practical advice we as Christians today simply won't follow. The bible is not an idealistic handbook of ideas that will never materialize into reality, but something much more than that. I don't believe we have it for no purpose, as much as I don't believe we have the entire Christian tradition for no purpose.

If thriving is not a desirable state, what is the desirable state we ought to seek here in the world? Mere neutrality in the face of adversity? That's fine for certain people but that has real life consequences and not all of them are good. If the Spanish had been neutral or uncaring about their Islamic neighbors in Al Andulus Spain would have been a Muslim country today. If King Alfred had acted as you do, and not concern himself with worldly affairs like running his kingdom, he would have abandoned his thrown and lived as a farmer. England might very well be a Pagan Empire instead of a Christian one.

Why is there is immediate knee jerk reaction against people who seek something better than the current status quo? Is it based on theology purely? Or something else? Many Christians in the past would agree with me and find your ideas rather absurd. Calvin didn't think it above himself to rule Geneva according to certain Christian standards. Why do you think this is an impossibility or something we can't entertain? Honestly? Why?

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For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Tiberius Lee said:

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

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What do I advocate that leads to losing one's soul?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

What do I advocate that leads to losing one's soul?

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You are advocating Christian establish Christian society, Christian nation, Christian government like in 15th century Europe.

There is no Biblical passage to support this kind of theology. As a matter of fact again and again teaching of N.T. is that we Christians are a temporary resident of this world, we do every thing to live eternal life in haven. What you want completely contradict Jesus teaching.


1. John 17:14-16 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.


2. John 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.


3. John 8:22-24 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”


4. 1 John 4:5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.


9. Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


10. James 4:4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.


11. 1 John 2:15-17 Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world. And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever.


12. John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”


13. Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.


14. Matthew 16:26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?


15. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.“


16. Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.


17. 2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


18. 1 Peter 2:11-12 Dear friends, I warn you as “temporary residents and foreigners” to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against your very souls. Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world.


19. Matthew 5:13-16 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.


20. Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

Well obviously, you and I see what Jesus has called us to do as believers ministering to unbelievers differently.

God bless,
Ted