Finnish Christian On Trial For Quoting The Bible On Twitter: ‘God Is Working’

miamited said:

BTW @Ignatius the Kiwi


Is that how you came to know the Lord? Some group saw you living in sin and beat you and bashed you and mocked you for your sin until you will gave up and you threw up your arms and said, "OK, I give up. I'm going with God. What must I do to be saved?" Share your testimony of 'how' you came to find yourself one day turning over your life to the Lord. Believing that God's love was for you also.

God bless,
Ted

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Um, no. This is not a thread discussion our conversion stories and it's a needless tangent. Try to stick to relevant points instead of rambling preaching. We're adults here. We can convey ideas to each other in a respectful way.

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

You know, there was a day, in which the God of all that is commanded a group of people to follow His laws. Yet, a few hundred years later, and quite honestly, if we believe the Scriptures, pretty shortly after the giving of that law, those same people turned on God. He seemed to pretty regularly chastise them for their faithlessness and disobedience. In fact, through the writings of Hosea, God declares about His people: my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. “Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Through the prophet Isaiah: The ox knows its master, the donkey its owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.”

I offer both of these prophet's writings because they both speak to roughly the same time in Israel's growth. Isaiah is writing in the days shortly after King David's reign. What do you think? Was that because old covenant Israel allowed 'liberalism' and poor education systems to gum up the works? I contend that the christian faith and the faith of Israel is doomed by the same issue: Man's heart is wicked! Who can know it? I also contend that the christian faith is not some popularity contest whereby we should be concerned that it isn't 'growing' like we think it ought. As I've said, the Scriptures are pretty clear that godlessness will abound more and more as we march inexorably towards the last days. While the teaching of Liberal or Republican or Democrat or just outright lies concerning the things of God may be a part of why the Scriptures tell us what they do on this matter, it is only a symptom of a greater wickedness. A wickedness that has attached itself to man's heart since the day in which Adam and Eve took a bite of that fruit.

While you are certainly welcome to try and change the world through your methods down in New Zealand, I honestly don't think you'll be nearly as successful at that as you probably think you can be. Man's heart, as a rule, has always denied the things and the truths of God. It has been that way since the beginning. Before words such as 'liberal' or 'conservative' or 'whatever political agendas an individual might subscribe to' ever came into existence.

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

You know, there was a day, in which the God of all that is commanded a group of people to follow His laws. Yet, a few hundred years later, and quite honestly, if we believe the Scriptures, pretty shortly after the giving of that law, those same people turned on God. He seemed to pretty regularly chastise them for their faithlessness and disobedience. In fact, through the writings of Hosea, God declares about His people: my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. “Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Through the prophet Isaiah: The ox knows its master, the donkey its owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.”

I offer both of these prophet's writings because they both speak to roughly the same time in Israel's growth. Isaiah is writing in the days shortly after King David's reign. What do you think? Was that because old covenant Israel allowed 'liberalism' and poor education systems to gum up the works? I contend that the christian faith and the faith of Israel is doomed by the same issue: Man's heart is wicked! Who can know it? I also contend that the christian faith is not some popularity contest whereby we should be concerned that it isn't 'growing' like we think it ought. As I've said, the Scriptures are pretty clear that godlessness will abound more and more as we march inexorably towards the last days. While the teaching of Liberal or Republican or Democrat or just outright lies concerning the things of God may be a part of why the Scriptures tell us what they do on this matter, it is only a symptom of a greater wickedness. A wickedness that has attached itself to man's heart since the day in which Adam and Eve took a bite of that fruit.

While you are certainly welcome to try and change the world through your methods down in New Zealand, I honestly don't think you'll be nearly as successful at that as you probably think you can be. Man's heart, as a rule, has always denied the things and the truths of God. It has been that way since the beginning. Before words such as 'liberal' or 'conservative' or 'whatever political agendas an individual might subscribe to' ever came into existence.

God bless,
Ted

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I'm not gifted or dedicated enough to change the world. Nor do I see the world changing in the short term to anything I would like. I only comment on what I perceive things to be and the direction we're heading in and it's something you don't seem to be keen on discussing. If you think the current situation and the decline of Christianity is desirable and Christians should do nothing to influence the masses then you're in luck. Your side is winning and the influence of Christianity in the world is declining as other forces and ideologies take the role it once had in guiding the hearts and minds of people. Christians are no longer able to express their opinions freely on LGBT as LGBT acceptance has replaced Christian sexual ethics in the minds of people. To keep this conversation somewhat related to the thread.

The world you desire is coming into being, a less Christian world, a world where Christianity is judged not by it's own standards but by other secular standards which seek to reform Christianity into it's own image of mass egalitarian acceptance of what was formally considered degenerate. Children will grow up not even knowing what Christianity is, addicted to inappropriate contentography, video games and a culture which encourages their entitlement and demands nothing from them except conformity to the new standard. If you approve of the direction we're heading in, by all means critique those who offer an alternative, who want Christianity to be the standard again.

By the way. I am not offering a Boomer conservative perspective on the current decline. My perspective is more reactionary rightwing than it is anything else. My biggest question for you is why do you defend the current trajectory of western society? Why do you oppose the idea of Christianity being imposed? Not only publicly, but privately?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

If we can't seek to do what's effective things won't change. As far as missionary efforts go, why be focused on missionary efforts when Churches struggle to retain members? The number of Christians becomes less and less each year. How can you look outwards when your own house is not in order? Christians have failed by in large to respond effectively to modernity and until we can counter it's many challenges you'll find missionary work having only limited success.

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Why focus on evangelism? Because that is the final commandment by Christ “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned"

By the way churches are not failing, Churches are thriving. More and more people coming to Christ today in Asia, Africa and South America. 100 years ago more Christians lived in “Western Civilization” then rest of the world. Today more Christians live outside “western world”.

Churches in the West are failing because Church leadership and congregation are more focus on worldly things like; Success, thriving, imposing Christianity to others, hating those who has different view like liberalism, or how glorious “western civilization” once was.

What we need in the Western church is teaching of Gospel, living a humble life and not measure success and glory in worldly understanding but collect treasure in haven. What we need is church members go on their knees and pray for unbeliever and sinner and those gay and lesbian and liberals. Pray for those who oppose Christianity.

Tiberius Lee said:

By the way churches are not failing, Churches are thriving. More and more people coming to Christ today in Asia, Africa and South America. 100 years ago more Christians lived in “Western Civilization” then rest of the world. Today more Christians live outside “western world”.

Churches in the West are failing because Church leadership and congregation are more focus on worldly things like; Success, thriving, imposing Christianity to others, hating those who has different view like liberalism, or how glorious “western civilization” once was.

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This is what I want to focus on primarily.

Why are Churches in the western world failing? Why do you think it's acceptable to ignore the needs of westerners for the Gospel and focus on the third world? Not that I think it's a bad thing that the Gospel is being spread to Africa and Asia but unless we're willing to examine how things in the west took such a dramatic turn for the worst what prevents the same from happening in the new bastions of Christianity?

You say the western Churches is failing because it's focused on worldly things. What specific worldly things are we talking about? It's conformity to western world itself that is a major reason for the decline. Christians no longer in the west view themselves as something fundamentally other than the non-Christian populations. Their way of life bares no remarkably different way of being than anyone else's, there is nothing distinctive in being a Christian.

But why should there be? The majority culture would look upon that as arrogance and many Christians here would agree for the need to be humble. To not place oneself or think of oneself as better than anyone else. Yet I can't help but see in this a rejection of how the early Christians carried themselves. They viewed their way of life as superior to the pagans around them. The viewed the way of life as needed and as essential. They took deliberate steps within the Church to enforce discipline and inculcate a way of life. Excommunication was not above them for a member of the Church who was displeasing. Yet Churches today seem to think this an unthinkable option.

Unless Christians are willing to embrace a radically different way of life and understand themselves as aliens in the western world, they will not be able to thrive. Part of this radical thinking will be a rejection of the enlightenment and rethinking the commitment many Christians have to secularism and universal egalitarianism.

Tiberius Lee said:

Churches in the West are failing because Church leadership and congregation are more focus on worldly things like; Success, thriving, imposing Christianity to others, hating those who has different view like liberalism, or how glorious “western civilization” once was.

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Churches in the West are failing because people are rejecting traditional western values, which are based in Judeo-Christian theology, in favor of atheism and humanism. Waving to the humanists and telling them to "come on in and take over" does not predispose people to be open to Christian teaching, rather the opposite.

Also, putting those people in charge of our governments only encourages them to attack churches and Christian thinking, as we have seen in the last several years. It also encourages churches to adopt a more compromised, watered down version of Christianity so as to blend in with the new modern values.

iarwain said:

Churches in the West are failing because people are rejecting traditional western values, which are based in Judeo-Christian theology, in favor of atheism and humanism. Waving to the humanists and telling them to "come on in and take over" does not predispose people to be open to Christian teaching, rather the opposite.

Also, putting those people in charge of our governments only encourages them to attack churches and Christian thinking, as we have seen in the last several years. It also encourages churches to adopt a more compromised, watered down version of Christianity so as to blend in with the new modern values.

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I hope you do understand Judeo-Christian tradition is a Asian culture and not European culture.

But God doesn’t care about culture; Judeo-Christian culture or humanism culture.

Church is failing because Christians are more focus on the world and how to control the world then Christ himself.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

This is what I want to focus on primarily.

Why are Churches in the western world failing? Why do you think it's acceptable to ignore the needs of westerners for the Gospel and focus on the third world? Not that I think it's a bad thing that the Gospel is being spread to Africa and Asia but unless we're willing to examine how things in the west took such a dramatic turn for the worst what prevents the same from happening in the new bastions of Christianity?

.

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“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature”

Tiberius Lee said:

But God doesn’t care about culture; Judeo-Christian culture or humanism culture.

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Who is more likely to grow up and be a Christian? A person who is raised in a Christian culture or a person who is raised in a Muslim culture? It's as simple as that. The humanism we see today is the West's new religion. I don't understand why any Christian would support the flourishment of that instead of traditional western values.

Tiberius Lee said:

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature”

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As we should. It doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to govern ourselves properly and understand ourselves in relation to others.

iarwain said:

Who is more likely to grow up and be a Christian? A person who is raised in a Christian culture or a person who is raised in a Muslim culture? It's as simple as that. The humanism we see today is the West's new religion. I don't understand why any Christian would support the flourishment of that instead of traditional western values.

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Unfortunately, neither culture has any influence on who will be Christian.

“No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

I really don’t understand what is “western value” and why should I care about that? Only value I care is “Biblical value and the teaching of Christ”.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

As we should. It doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to govern ourselves properly and understand ourselves in relation to others.

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Do you have a Biblical Doctrine for that ? If not then I have ZERO interest in “ govern by ourselves properly” .

Tiberius Lee said:

Do you have a Biblical Doctrine for that ? If not then I have ZERO interest in “ govern by ourselves properly” .

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We don't have biblical doctrines for a lot of things. We do however have the example of our Christian ancestors and perhaps we can look at how they applied Christianity practically in politics and created a genuine Christian culture that we all came out of.

I'm not a protestant and I don't believe in Sola scriptura. Nor do I look at the world exclusively through the religious or spiritual lens. That's part of the reason why we disagree. I use not only the bible, but tradition, history and the examination of how men interact with each other.

This requires going beyond the bible, since the biblical authors did not address all topics and nor did they give us a perfect blueprint for responding clearly to each challenge society throws at us. Now I could recommend many parts of the Apostolic life and feel we should return to those standards, but this would involve a thorough rejection of the dominant cultural ethos of our times.

Do you for instance think Churches should encourage themselves to think of themselves as seperate from the wider society and instill an us vs them mentality? As the early Apostles did?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

We don't have biblical doctrines for a lot of things. We do however have the example of our Christian ancestors and perhaps we can look at how they applied Christianity practically in politics and created a genuine Christian culture that we all came out of.

I'm not a protestant and I don't believe in Sola scriptura. Nor do I look at the world exclusively through the religious or spiritual lens. That's part of the reason why we disagree. I use not only the bible, but tradition, history and the examination of how men interact with each other.

This requires going beyond the bible, since the biblical authors did not address all topics and nor did they give us a perfect blueprint for responding clearly to each challenge society throws at us. Now I could recommend many parts of the Apostolic life and feel we should return to those standards, but this would involve a thorough rejection of the dominant cultural ethos of our times.

Do you for instance think Churches should encourage themselves to think of themselves as seperate from the wider society and instill an us vs them mentality? As the early Apostles did?

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As I said, if you don’t have Biblical doctrine then I have Zero interest. Have a nice day.

Tiberius Lee said:

As I said, if you don’t have Biblical doctrine then I have Zero interest. Have a nice day.

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Well what would accept in terms of biblical doctrine? Do you want a biblical example? What do you think of the Apostle saying Rome, a pagan empire had legitimate authority to use the sword against it's subjects?

Tiberius Lee said:

Unfortunately, neither culture has any influence on who will be Christian.

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I have to disagree on this. In a Christian based society, one is much more likely to hear the Gospel being preached than in a Muslim based society. Which would only logically result in more more Christians.

iarwain said:

I have to disagree on this. In a Christian based society, one is much more likely to hear the Gospel being preached than in a Muslim based society. Which would only logically result in more more Christians.

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Judas Iscariot heard lot a Gospel yet he was not a Christian.

iarwain said:

I have to disagree on this. In a Christian based society, one is much more likely to hear the Gospel being preached than in a Muslim based society. Which would only logically result in more more Christians.

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Some are under the impression that Christianity can exist under all conditions. While I wish this were so, it is not the reality of the situation. For example, If one thinks Christianity could have thrived in Islamic Spain under the conditions of Dhimmitude they aren't examining reality.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Some are under the impression that Christianity can exist under all conditions. While I wish this were so, it is not the reality of the situation. For example, If one thinks Christianity could have thrived in Islamic Spain under the conditions of Dhimmitude they aren't examining reality.

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God can do all things of course. But if there were no value to spreading the gospel, we wouldn't be called to spread it. A person growing up in 1950s America, attending church every week, would be much more likely to hear the gospel. As opposed to someone growing up now, who will instead be taught that there are 57 genders and you should pick one for yourself so you can join in the big parade with The Gender Unicorn during Pride month.

Hi @Ignatius the Kiwi

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I only comment on what I perceive things to be and the direction we're heading in and it's something you don't seem to be keen on discussing. If you think the current situation and the decline of Christianity is desirable and Christians should do nothing to influence the masses then you're in luck.

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I don't think that you understand my position in this. Yes, absolutely! I see the culture falling deeper and deeper into rebellion and sin against God. BUT, I don't find that alarming because the Scriptures tell me that it's what I should be expecting to see, AS WE GET CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE RETURN OF THE LORD!!! I also don't find any solace in someone saying that this time of malaise and wickedness has come because Christians aren't doing their job right. You have yet to answer my question that I put to you several posts ago:

miamited said:

Show me. Lead me through the Scriptures that tell you that Christianity is ever going to thrive on the earth. Show me where Paul or Peter or any of the other new covenant writers have told us that as we Christians impose our ideas upon the world that 'society' will be turned to God.

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I mean, that's your claim right? Christianity is not thriving upon the earth because christians aren't doing what you think they should be doing. That they are losing ground because of their inability to assert the law of God over all mankind.

You seem to be decrying that a reality has come that those who understand the Scriptures have always expected to come, and for those anxiously awaiting the return of the Lord, know that these days have to come before he's going to return. You seem to think that world history will just go on forever and ever and ever and the truths of the last days will never come to pass if 'christians' would just do their job!

Friend, there is no scenario in the Scriptures where the world is overtaken by love and prosperity and peace because christians are out forcing mankind to live under the law of God. No!!! Not at all!! We individually have peace because we have peace with God through our acceptance and understanding of the gospel, but the world? The world??? The world is going to continue to wax more wicked and wicked and wicked until the day that God steps up from His throne and declares, "Enough!!! Son, go get your children!!! The time has come! The wickedness of the world is now as bad as I'm going to allow it to get!!!" You don't seem to understand that if the world doesn't go wicked, then God's final decree is never going to come to pass.

Now, do I like that it is more and more wicked? Nope. Do I see that each generation from way back in time has become more and more wicked than the one before? Yep. But I've read Paul's words to the Roman believers.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

What you are witnessing is the working out of a world in which we are sexually depraved. Even our women do things that are detestable as sexual practices. The minds of those of the world are depraved. The people of the world have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. As a people we have become gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, boastful. Inventing new ways of doing evil all the time. The world's people have no understanding, no fidelity, no love and no mercy. You've been warned of these days from ages past, but you think these days have come upon us because christians just aren't asserting the ways of God enough. God will not be mocked!! These days are coming upon us because the world has always hated God and as our populations grow exponentially that hate is manifest in all these ways of wickedness that Paul has written to us about.

Then Paul writes to Timothy. Telling him clearly that the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

We have all been warned that these days are coming and while godly believers would like it to be otherwise, it isn't what God's word has revealed to us. They're going to come and when they have run their course...Jesus will return!!! Praise God!!!

So again, my encouragement to you is to do what Jesus has asked of you:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

God bless,
Ted