 One or two little horns?

Douggg

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Zao is life

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There are 2 little horns.

This is actually an argument for there being 2 horns. The wording is different because they are 2 different people.
This is the root word:

[*StrongsHebrew*]
6819
tsâ‛ar tsaw-ar'

A primitive root; to be {small} that {is} (figuratively) ignoble: - be brought {low} little {one} be small.

Brown-Driver-Briggs' definition of 6819:

(1) to be or grow insignificant, grow small
(1a) (Qal) to ge insignificant

It's employed only three times in the Old Testament:

Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knows it not; and they are brought low [6819 tsâ‛ar], but he perceives it not of them.

Jeremiah 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small [6819 tsâ‛ar].

Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, says the LORD of hosts: strike the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones [6819 tsâ‛ar].

4705
mits‛âr mits-awr'
From H6819;
petty (in size or number); adverbially a short (time): - little {one} ({while}) small.

4704
mitstse‛îyrâh mits-tseh-ee-raw'
Feminine of H4705;
properly littleness; concretely diminutive: - little.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little [4704 mitstse‛îyrâh] horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

4704 mitstse‛îyrâh is only employed once in the entire Old Testament, and it's in Daniel 8:9, and its root is the same as the root for 4705, which is 6819.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little [2192 ze‛êyr zeh-ayr'] horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

2192
ze‛êyr zeh-ayr'

(Chaldee); corresponding to H2191: - little.

2191
ze‛êyr zeh-ayr'

From an unused root (akin (by permutation) to {H6819}) meaning to dwindle; small: - little.

[2192 ze‛êyr zeh-ayr'] is also only used once in the entire Old Testament: In Daniel 7:8.

Brown-Driver-Briggs' definition of 2191:
(1) a little
(1a) of quantity
(1b) of time
The 4 beasts in Dan 7 are contemporaneous and future (present). The kingdoms in Dan 2 are contemporaneous - the kingdom of heaven destroys all 4 kingdoms, not just the last one.
Yeah the beast of Revelation 13 = lion, leopard, bear, so all of them.

The rest of your post working out finer details I find very interesting. Not sure if it's correct or partly correct, but it is interesting.
 
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tranquil

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Yeah the beast of Revelation 13 = lion, leopard, bear, so all of them.
No, not all of them - there is no Dan 7 4th beast in Revelation 13.

If you don't get this point that I am making, I don't think you would understand my post in general:

You are assuming that the 4th beast controls all 4/ has subsumed the other 3, but this is not the case - as is proven by the fact that the lion, bear, and leopard are separate entities (they are given an extension of life in Daniel 7:12).

After the Dan 7 little horn/ 4th beast is killed, then the lion, bear, & leopard are given their extension.

This kind of gets into the idea that Satan can resurrect the antichrist or it is a fake resurrection (it doesn't really matter to me, one way or the other). The image of the beast exists regardless.

The saints possess the Dan 7 (destroyed) 4th beast kingdom while the lion, bear, & leopard are given their extension (which is the same time frame of beast from the sea in Revelation 13). The False Prophet (the Daniel 8 Little Horn) is warring against these saints of the destroyed 4th Beast kingdom (which was destroyed at the time of the mortal head wound).
 
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DavidPT

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No, not all of them - there is no Dan 7 4th beast in Revelation 13.

If you don't get this point that I am making, I don't think you would understand my post in general:

You are assuming that the 4th beast controls all 4/ has subsumed the other 3, but this is not the case - as is proven by the fact that the lion, bear, and leopard are separate entities (they are given an extension of life in Daniel 7:12).

After the Dan 7 little horn/ 4th beast is killed, then the lion, bear, & leopard are given their extension.

This kind of gets into the idea that Satan can resurrect the antichrist or it is a fake resurrection (it doesn't really matter to me, one way or the other). The image of the beast exists regardless.

The saints possess the Dan 7 (destroyed) 4th beast kingdom while the lion, bear, & leopard are given their extension (which is the same time frame of beast from the sea in Revelation 13). The False Prophet (the Daniel 8 Little Horn) is warring against these saints of the destroyed 4th Beast kingdom (which was destroyed at the time of the mortal head wound).


Initially when I was reading your view of some of these things, I thought you were making some interesting points that you might be correct about some of. But now I'm having 2nd thoughts about that since this post is making your view a bit clearer to me, and that I can now see you are applying some of these events to time periods that I wouldn't be.

For example, the little horn being given to the burning flame. Per my view that doesn't happen until the 2nd coming. Per your view it precedes the 2nd coming. Daniel 7:9-11 involves what is recorded in Revelation 19:20 though, and that I can't even remotely fathom Revelation 19:20 not involving the 2nd coming in the end of this age.
 
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tranquil

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Initially when I was reading your view of some of these things, I thought you were making some interesting points that you might be correct about some of. But now I'm having 2nd thoughts about that since this post is making your view a bit clearer to me, and that I can now see you are applying some of these events to time periods that I wouldn't be.

For example, the little horn being given to the burning flame. Per my view that doesn't happen until the 2nd coming. Per your view it precedes the 2nd coming. Daniel 7:9-11 involves what is recorded in Revelation 19:20 though, and that I can't even remotely fathom Revelation 19:20 not involving the 2nd coming in the end of this age.

I've never been a fan of the idea that 'Jesus just comes back, kills the bad guys in one day, and that's that'. Clearly, that is not what is being described in Revelation or Daniel. The 6th Trumpet war looks like the 6th Seal war, looks like the 6th Bowl of wrath war (Armageddon). They are not the same, but they look similar. So many people just want things that look the same to be the same, when they are not.

The 3 woes (Trumpets 5,6, 7) seem to be 3 stages that events proceed through.

Daniel 7:9-11 looks like Revelation 19:20, but are they really the same?

Simple answers are appealing but I'm not sure they are always correct.
 
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Douggg

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No, not all of them - there is no Dan 7 4th beast in Revelation 13.
The fourth beast is the beast coming out of the sea - in the end times - in Revelation 13. The fourth beast's component parts are those of the other three kingdoms.

The head on the fourth beast in Daniel 7 had the ten horns and the little horn person. The head on the Daniel 7 fourth beast is the fourth beast in the end times.

The little horn person is the mortally wounded/healed head - having become the beast king, king 8.


upload_2022-2-1_12-50-35.jpeg
 
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tranquil

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The fourth beast is the beast coming out of the sea - in the end times - in Revelation 13. The fourth beast's component parts are those of the other three kingdoms.

The head on the fourth beast in Daniel 7 had the ten horns and the little horn person. The head on the Daniel 7 fourth beast is the fourth beast in the end times.

The little horn person is the mortally wounded/healed head - having become the beast king, king 8.


View attachment 312049

The 4th beast's component parts are not those of the other 3 beasts.

Dan 7:7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

"It was different from all the other beasts".

So what beast is it that is getting killed?

11“I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

What beast is it that is getting killed, Dougg?

It is the 4th beast, not the lion, bear, or leopard.

The lion, bear, and leopard are the 'rest of the beasts'. These are the components of the 'beast from the sea' in Revelation 13.

When the lives of the 'lion, bear, leopard' are extended (verse 12 above), this is the time of Dan 8:23, this is the 'latter end of the Greece/ leopard kingdom'.

23And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. 24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints.

Who are the saints? They are the people who now possess the 4th beast kingdom (after the beast is killed) in Daniel 7:22

22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.​

The False Prophet is the Daniel 8 Little horn that arises when the 'rest of the beasts' are given an extension of life, aka 'the latter part of their kingdom'.
 
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Douggg

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The 4th beast's component parts are not those of the other 3 beasts.
I was referring to the beast who comes out of the sea in Revelation 13. That beast is the fourth beast of Daniel 7 - but the end times version of it.

The fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire.

The head on the fourth beast in Daniel 7 having the ten horns is the end times version of the Roman Empire - the EU. The ten kings and the little horn will come out of the EU.
What beast is it that is getting killed, Dougg?
It will be the fourth beast end times version of it the EU. The EU will be abolished when Jesus returns.

Who are the saints? They are the people who now possess the 4th beast kingdom (after the beast is killed) in Daniel 7:22
The saints of course are Christians (post-rapture). You have misread what kingdom they will possess. The kingdom they will posses is the kingdom of God. Referred to Daniel 7:11 and Daniel 7:27.
 
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ewq1938

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Did you read what I wrote? It doesn't seem that way.

The seven heads are also 7 kings.

There are different sets of manuscripts. One maybe more do say that the 7 heads are also the 7 kings. One maybe more do not say that but separate the 7 heads from the entirely different concept of 8 consecutive kings. I already explained how it is impossible for the heads to be these kings.


No one is claiming the mountains to be kings.

The 7 heads are seven mountains so anyone saying the 7 heads are the 7 (8) kings is saying that whether they know it or not.


King 7 in Revelation 17:10, when he comes, he must continue a short space.

Since the beast, king 8 as it says in Revelation 17:11 is of the seven, and in Revelation 13 the beast continues for 42 months, then why isn't that 42 months the short space that king 7 must continue?

The answer is simple. King 7 will be killed and brought back to life to become the beast, king 8, and continues 42 month as the beast until Jesus returns.


I agree with you that one person will fulfill the 7th and 8th kingships but not due to any death or coming back to life because none of that is found in Revelation 13 or anywhere else. It is the false prophet who has two little horns of a lambkin. Since horns are kings, he will be two kings. Because they are short, he will be the 7th and 8th kings for short period of time. The total this two-horned, two-kinged person has is 42 months.
 
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Douggg

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I agree with you that one person will fulfill the 7th and 8th kingships but not due to any death or coming back to life because none of that is found in Revelation 13 or anywhere else. It is the false prophet who has two little horns of a lambkin. Since horns are kings, he will be two kings. Because they are short, he will be the 7th and 8th kings for short period of time. The total this two-horned, two-kinged person has is 42 months.
The little horn king in Daniel 7 is associated with the ten kings.

In Revelation 17:17, the ten kings give their kingdom to the beast - not the false prophet.

The little horn king becomes the beast. The false prophet is a lying prophet, not a king at all.

________________________________________________________

tne little horn
> becomes the prince who shall come > becomes the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast.

as the little horn - leader of the EU
as the beast - "dictator" of the EU and world.
 
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Douggg

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The 7 heads are seven mountains so anyone saying the 7 heads are the 7 (8) kings is saying that whether they know it or not.
No, they are not.

1. verse 9. The seven heads represent seven mountains on which the woman sits.

2. verse 10. The seven heads also represent seven kings.

The kings and the mountains are two different things.

However, I don't have a problem with the seven kings being associated with the location (the city) of the seven mountains. Rome.

The 7 kings are Julio-Claudian kings. The Julio-Claudians were associated with Rome.
 
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ewq1938

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The false prophet is a lying prophet, not a king at all.

He will be a king also. Jesus was both a true prophet and a King.


In Revelation 17:17, the ten kings give their kingdom to the beast - not the false prophet.

And it is the false prophet beast who will wield ALL the power of the first beast making him the supreme commander, the highest power and authority. The same thing happens when the little horn rises to power in Daniel. No surprise the beast with two little horns does the same thing.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
 
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Douggg

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And it is the false prophet beast who will wield ALL the power of the first beast making him the supreme commander, the highest power and authority. The same thing happens when the little horn rises to power in Daniel. No surprise the beast with two little horns does the same thing.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
You have concluded it backwards.

The first beast in Revelation delegates power to the second beast, the false prophet.

The ten kings are associated with the little horn king and those ten kings (the ten horns) are on the first beast in Revelation 13. Not on the second beast.
 
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ewq1938

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You have concluded it backwards.

The first beast in Revelation delegates power to the second beast, the false prophet.

It does not say that. It only says the FP "exerciseth all the power of the first beast"

There is no delegating anywhere in the text.



The ten kings are associated with the little horn king and those ten kings (the ten horns) are on the first beast in Revelation 13. Not on the second beast.

The prophecies are different so comparing them doesn't help much.

In Daniel there are ten kings on one beast and an 11th horn rises up. After some time three of the original horns are uprooted leaving only 8 horns left on one beast.

In Revelation we have ten kings on one beast, and a second beast with two little horns who will exercise all the power of that first beast. That leaves ten horns on one beast and two horns on the second beast.
 
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Douggg

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It does not say that. It only says the FP "exerciseth all the power of the first beast"

There is no delegating anywhere in the text.
It is not necessary for the word delegates in the text.

The first beast in Revelation delegates power to the second beast, the false prophet - who exercises it.

The fact that the false prophet exercises the power of the first beast implies that the first beast delegated his power to him (the false prophet).
 
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Douggg

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In Revelation we have ten kings on one beast, and a second beast with two little horns who will exercise all the power of that first beast. That leaves ten horns on one beast and two horns on the second beast.
The ten horns in Daniel 7 and in Revelation are ten kings. Removing 3 kings in Daniel 7 by the little horn is not spelled out why.

For certain though, it is not "leaving two horns", i.e. ten kings, on the second beast.

The two horns like a lamb on the second beast is a metaphorical way of indicating that the person will be two-faced. On one hand, he will try to come over as a gentle and peaceful person like a lamb - on the other hand, he is cunning, evil, and has the voice of dragon, speaking for Satan, evil - and has people killed for not worshiping the image of the first beast.
 
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ewq1938

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It is not necessary for the word delegates in the text.

Something showing that anything like that happens is very much required else it is just imagined.


The first beast in Revelation delegates power to the second beast, the false prophet - who exercises it.


Again, no such thing is described. It looks much more like how the little horns takes over, by simply taking power over everything. I know you disagree but the False Prophet is the antichrist and the antichrist is the top guy under satan.



The fact that the false prophet exercises the power of the first beast implies that the first beast delegated his power to him (the false prophet).


I see it as the False Prophet was always exercising the power of the first beast because that beast is an empire not a person ruling an empire. The False Prophet was always the ruler but he was in a non-public role at first and then changed to the public role. In this I see the two horns/kings as part of that one person.
 
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ewq1938

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The two horns like a lamb on the second beast is a metaphorical way of indicating that the person will be two-faced.

Horns in Revelation do not symbolize faces or the concept your are describing. They represent kings. Ten horns are ten kings. Two horns on one single person means that person will be a king twice, twice in a row because the last two kings is the 7th and 8th and we both believe that is accomplished by a single person.
 
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Douggg

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Horns in Revelation do not symbolize faces or the concept your are describing. They represent kings. Ten horns are ten kings. Two horns on one single person means that person will be a king twice, twice in a row because the last two kings is the 7th and 8th and we both believe that is accomplished by a single person.
"two-faced" is not a literal term, but a figure of speech.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
 
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