Passover For Christians

B*U*M*P

Der Alte said:

I don't understand the relevance of your mention of the phrase "sixth hour."

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I posted somewhere that I think this is the 6th hour of the night. So midnight. What do you think about it?

Der Alte said:

Since that is true 1-7 ULB does not require a day of preparation.

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Hold on now, all businesses were closed on Matsa 1. And the degree of strictness on how much of a Sabbath it is, varies between denominations. Orthodox Jews keep it as strict as the weekly Sabbath, and the Pharisees are the root of Orthodox Jews today.

My main reason to reject the Friday crucifixion is the 3 days and 3 nights not adding up, as we discussed earlier.

I do think we should get back to the main topic. Passover is not for Jews only. It was a Christian Feast for hundreds of years, and still is. The traditions have just changed. Instead of a seder, a ham. Instead of matsa, extra leavened buns and cakes puffed up as much as possible. Instead of telling children about the resurrection, they are told about a magic bunny that lays eggs. Now go and find them. Instead of Pesach, it's Easter. Although other languages retain the Hebrew more, such as Russian, where it is called Paska.

Torah Keeper said:

I posted somewhere that I think this is the 6th hour of the night. So midnight. What do you think about it?
Hold on now, all businesses were closed on Matsa 1. And the degree of strictness on how much of a Sabbath it is, varies between denominations. Orthodox Jews keep it as strict as the weekly Sabbath, and the Pharisees are the root of Orthodox Jews today.
My main reason to reject the Friday crucifixion is the 3 days and 3 nights not adding up, as we discussed earlier.
I do think we should get back to the main topic. Passover is not for Jews only. It was a Christian Feast for hundreds of years, and still is. The traditions have just changed. Instead of a seder, a ham. Instead of matsa, extra leavened buns and cakes puffed up as much as possible. Instead of telling children about the resurrection, they are told about a magic bunny that lays eggs. Now go and find them. Instead of Pesach, it's Easter. Although other languages retain the Hebrew more, such as Russian, where it is called Paska.

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To quote a certain prominent figure. C'mon man! When was any time, if ever, that you have seen, Bunnies, eggs, etc. as any part of a resurrection Sunday service? I have been a Christain since LBJ was prez and the only thing I have ever seen at a Resurrection Sunday service was solemn service honoring nthe resurrection of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ,
,,,,,Some folks object to the word "Easter" falsely claiming it is pagan. Christians are not responsible for the misappropriation and commercialization any of the Christians observances e.g. Easter, Christmas. etc.
,,,,,I believe that Christians are not required to observe the Passover, which is the old leaven, because Jesus is our Passover,
Christians are free to observe Passover but it is no longer a requirement.
Shabbat means rest and Jesus is our rest. This is the command that Jesus gave us.
,,,,,Which post did you conclusively show that this is the 6th hour?
Your argument about 3 days and 3 night is far from compelling because Jesus Himself used different terms for the same period, "the third day,"""on the third day,""in three days,""after three days" and "three days and three nights."
....The terms "the third day,"""on the third day,""in three days,""after three days" do not mean the same thing and none of them mean "three days and three night."

Der Alte said:

Christians are free to observe Passover

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Great! Let's observe it!

Der Alte said:

Which post did you conclusively show that this is the 6th hour?

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I was replying to a comment you quoted that someone else made about the trial being at the 6th hour, which they assumed was the 6th hour of the day. I think the trial was the 6th hour of the night. It's in John 19:14.

Another explanation is the 6th hour was in Roman time, so about dawn. But that seems unlikely to me.

Torah Keeper said:

Great! Let's observe it!

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Go right ahead. But you don't have the right to beat others over the head and try to force them to do what you choose to do. Jesus is my Passover every day I don't need a lamb once a year.

I was replying to a comment you quoted that someone else made about the trial being at the 6th hour, which they assumed was the 6th hour of the day. I think the trial was the 6th hour of the night. It's in John 19:14.
Another explanation is the 6th hour was in Roman time, so about dawn. But that seems unlikely to me.

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Another view I read the days were broken down in "watches" Third watch 12[midnight]-3 the third watch, the sixth watch 3-6, etc.

LoveGodsWord said:

Figure 1 timing of the Feasts of Passover/Unleavened bread and First fruits with Christs death and resurrection.

View attachment 311328

God bless

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Matt 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?” 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’” 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

They prepared the Passover as specified in:

Ex 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight. [Hebrew between the two evenings]

This means we can identify what day Matt 26:17 was, the preparation day for Passover better known as the 14th.

Matt 26:20 When it was evening, he reclined at the table with the twelve. 21 And as they were eating….

Now evening and eating the food, corresponds exactly with the Passover, let us see.

Ex 12:7 “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Now the lamb was eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs, which occurred only between the 15th to the 21st of the month, also referred to as the week of Unleavened Bread.

This means we can identify what day Matt 26:20 was, the first day of Unleavened Bread better known as the 15th.

Now the above explanation is confirmed in Mark and Luke too, so there is no mistranslation, but clearly shows that the interpretation in your table of the crucifixion on the 14th and 15th isn’t supported by listed scriptures.

Now place this in Figure 1, it will hopefully help you see the contradiction.

LoveGodsWord said:

Your view in interpretation of the scriptures you have provided in in contradiction with the gospel of John. John 18:28 says: “Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover


Take Care.

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There is no contradiction here, it is the incorrect interpretation of John 18:28 being the 14th, that is the conflict.

The word Passover in the phrase, “wanted to be able to eat the Passover”, can mean the Pesach or the week of Unleavened Bread. See Luke 22:1

The amplified presents it like this:

28 Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium (governor’s palace). Now it was early and the Jews did not enter the Praetorium so that they would not be [ceremonially] unclean, but might [be able to] eat [and participate in the Feast of Unleavened Bread which began after] the Passover [supper].

The Jews did not enter the governor’s palace the Praetorium so that they would not become ceremonially unclean and be able to eat and participate in the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Let’s see why?

Leviticus 11: 40 And whoever eats some of its meat shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening; also, whoever picks up its carcass shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the evening.

Leviticus 14: 46 Moreover, whoever goes into the house during the time that it is quarantined becomes unclean until evening.

Leviticus 15: 5 Whoever touches his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening;

Numbers 19: 22 Furthermore, anything the unclean person touches shall be unclean, and anyone who touches it shall be ceremonially unclean until evening.’”

Deuteronomy 23: 10-11 “If there is any man among you who is ceremonially unclean because of a nocturnal emission, then he must go outside the camp; he shall not come back to the camp. But when evening comes, he shall bathe in water, and at sundown, he may return to the camp.

This Scripture in John 18:28, cannot refer to the Pesach seder meal of the previous night and does not refer to the Unleavened bread eaten that evening, because in both cases, they would be declared ceremonial clean that evening before eating the Pesach or Unleavened Bread. Therefore it points to something held during the day before the evening, a ceremony which required them to be ceremonial clean during the day.

It is clear from the narrative that Jesus after eating the Passover meal, from the Gospel accounts, went out to the garden where He was captured, John now refers to the celebratory sacrifices held during the week of unleavened bread also known as “Chol HaMoed”.

Thus John 18:28 wasn’t referring to the Passover seder but the Passover feast week.

This is also explained as a food offering to the LORD for seven days, see below.

Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. 8 But you shall present a food offering to the Lord for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.”

Therefore John 18:28 actually supports the narrative that Jesus was still alive and well on the 15th.

Torah Keeper said:

I was replying to a comment you quoted that someone else made about the trial being at the 6th hour, which they assumed was the 6th hour of the day. I think the trial was the 6th hour of the night. It's in John 19:14.

Another explanation is the 6th hour was in Roman time, so about dawn. But that seems unlikely to me.

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You also suggested that it could be midnight, public hearings were required to be during the day to be lawful. The verse answers this.

John 19:12 From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.” 13 So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaicb, Gabbatha. 14 Now it was the [day of] Preparation of the Passover [Unleavened Bread[. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” 15 They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” 16 So he delivered him over to them to be crucified.

So, from the verse, Jesus was trialled at noon or 12 pm in today’s time.

Now to make this fit people simply change the time referenced in the book of John, to Roman time, there is no proof for this and no mandate to do so, and therefore not worth disputing.

This would make the book of John the only one that uses Roman time, which is very suspicious. The only reason why people would even suggest this is to make their proposed interpretation work.

However, trusting scripture as written, proves that Jesus was only crucified the next day. The trial before Pilate at noon, leading to Jesus's crucifixion the next day on the third hour. Mark 15:25

Now to further support this narrative, it would be really nice if we can find historical evidence.

This is found in the Didascalia, dating to around 230 AD.

From the Didascalia:

I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of His flock shall be scattered."
And Judas came with the scribes and with the priests of the people, and
delivered up our Lord Jesus. But this was on Wednesday, for when we had
eaten the Passover on Tuesday in the evening, we went out to the Mount
of Olives, and in the night they took our Lord Jesus; and on the next
day, which was Wednesday, He remained in prison in the house of Cepha
the High Priest. In that day the chiefs of the people were assembled, and
they took counsel together against Him. Again, the next day, which was
Thursday, they brought Him to Pilate the governor, and again He remained
in prison with Pilate, in the night after Thursday. And when it dawned on
Friday, they accused Him much before Pilate, yet they could show nothing
true, but they brought false witness against Him. And they asked Him
from Pilate, to put Him to death, and they crucified Him on Friday.

Now from Didascalia we see, Jesus did eat the Passover on the 15th, thus introducing the New Covenant on the very same day as when the Old Covenant was given.

In summary
Partaking in the Pesach meal, made you part of the old covenant, and NOW partaking in His body we become part of His New Covenant. Both occurring on the 15th.

Hope this helps.

Shalom

All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on the day before the Sabbath. The one and only Sabbath in passion week,
"παρασκευὴ/Parasceue" the Greek word translated "preparation," at the time of Jesus and now refers to the day we call "Friday." "παρασκευὴ/preparation" occurs only 6 times, all in the gospels, quoted below.

Filippus said:

Matt 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?” 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’” 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

They prepared the Passover as specified in:

Ex 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight. [Hebrew between the two evenings]

This means we can identify what day Matt 26:17 was, the preparation day for Passover better known as the 14th.

Matt 26:20 When it was evening, he reclined at the table with the twelve. 21 And as they were eating….

Now evening and eating the food, corresponds exactly with the Passover, let us see.

Ex 12:7 “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Now the lamb was eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs, which occurred only between the 15th to the 21st of the month, also referred to as the week of Unleavened Bread.

This means we can identify what day Matt 26:20 was, the first day of Unleavened Bread better known as the 15th.

Now the above explanation is confirmed in Mark and Luke too, so there is no mistranslation, but clearly shows that the interpretation in your table of the crucifixion on the 14th and 15th isn’t supported by listed scriptures.

Now place this in Figure 1, it will hopefully help you see the contradiction.

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It's quite simple: azumon is simply the word for leaven with the negative particle (alpha) prefixed. It means no leaven or without leaven. It does not always mean "the feast of Unleavened Bread" as it is mistakenly rendered in those two or three passages that people say are contradictory. That's why the author(s) stipulate in several cases that it was the day in which the Pesach was slain: which everyone knew was the fourteenth, so that the reader would know that azumon in those verses does not mean the first day of Matzot, (the 15th), but rather simply the first day of no leaven or without leaven. Everyone knew this day was also the fourteenth, the final search and sweep to make sure all leaven was gone was to be done by about an hour before midday on the fourteenth: it was the first day of "no leaven", azumon, but not the first day of Unleavened Bread, the feast of the azumon.

Filippus said:

There is no contradiction here, it is the incorrect interpretation of John 18:28 being the 14th, that is the conflict.

The word Passover in the phrase, “wanted to be able to eat the Passover”, can mean the Pesach or the week of Unleavened Bread. See Luke 22:1

The amplified presents it like this:

28 Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium (governor’s palace). Now it was early and the Jews did not enter the Praetorium so that they would not be [ceremonially] unclean, but might [be able to] eat [and participate in the Feast of Unleavened Bread which began after] the Passover [supper].

The Jews did not enter the governor’s palace the Praetorium so that they would not become ceremonially unclean and be able to eat and participate in the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Let’s see why?

Leviticus 11: 40 And whoever eats some of its meat shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening; also, whoever picks up its carcass shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the evening.

Leviticus 14: 46 Moreover, whoever goes into the house during the time that it is quarantined becomes unclean until evening.

Leviticus 15: 5 Whoever touches his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening;

Numbers 19: 22 Furthermore, anything the unclean person touches shall be unclean, and anyone who touches it shall be ceremonially unclean until evening.’”

Deuteronomy 23: 10-11 “If there is any man among you who is ceremonially unclean because of a nocturnal emission, then he must go outside the camp; he shall not come back to the camp. But when evening comes, he shall bathe in water, and at sundown, he may return to the camp.

This Scripture in John 18:28, cannot refer to the Pesach seder meal of the previous night and does not refer to the Unleavened bread eaten that evening, because in both cases, they would be declared ceremonial clean that evening before eating the Pesach or Unleavened Bread. Therefore it points to something held during the day before the evening, a ceremony which required them to be ceremonial clean during the day.

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Agreed again, but it's easier to explain straight from the Torah: Mosheh calls the whole feast the Pesach or Passover in Deuteronomy 16:2 because he says, "the flock and the herd", but there is no sacrifice from the herd until the fifteenth. Therefore the whole feast is called the Passover, (Pesach), and thus, indeed they can be speaking of any other day of the feast.

Filippus said:

It is clear from the narrative that Jesus after eating the Passover meal, from the Gospel accounts, went out to the garden where He was captured, John now refers to the celebratory sacrifices held during the week of unleavened bread also known as “Chol HaMoed”.

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And the Hagigah.

Filippus said:

Thus John 18:28 wasn’t referring to the Passover seder but the Passover feast week.

This is also explained as a food offering to the LORD for seven days, see below.

Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. 8 But you shall present a food offering to the Lord for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.”

Therefore John 18:28 actually supports the narrative that Jesus was still alive and well on the 15th.



You also suggested that it could be midnight, public hearings were required to be during the day to be lawful. The verse answers this.

John 19:12 From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.” 13 So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaicb, Gabbatha. 14 Now it was the [day of] Preparation of the Passover [Unleavened Bread[. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” 15 They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” 16 So he delivered him over to them to be crucified.

So, from the verse, Jesus was trialled at noon or 12 pm in today’s time.

Now to make this fit people simply change the time referenced in the book of John, to Roman time, there is no proof for this and no mandate to do so, and therefore not worth disputing.

This would make the book of John the only one that uses Roman time, which is very suspicious. The only reason why people would even suggest this is to make their proposed interpretation work.

However, trusting scripture as written, proves that Jesus was only crucified the next day. The trial before Pilate at noon, leading to Jesus's crucifixion the next day on the third hour. Mark 15:25

Now to further support this narrative, it would be really nice if we can find historical evidence.

This is found in the Didascalia, dating to around 230 AD.

From the Didascalia:

I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of His flock shall be scattered."
And Judas came with the scribes and with the priests of the people, and
delivered up our Lord Jesus. But this was on Wednesday, for when we had
eaten the Passover on Tuesday in the evening, we went out to the Mount
of Olives, and in the night they took our Lord Jesus; and on the next
day, which was Wednesday, He remained in prison in the house of Cepha
the High Priest. In that day the chiefs of the people were assembled, and
they took counsel together against Him. Again, the next day, which was
Thursday, they brought Him to Pilate the governor, and again He remained
in prison with Pilate, in the night after Thursday. And when it dawned on
Friday, they accused Him much before Pilate, yet they could show nothing
true, but they brought false witness against Him. And they asked Him
from Pilate, to put Him to death, and they crucified Him on Friday.

Now from Didascalia we see, Jesus did eat the Passover on the 15th, thus introducing the New Covenant on the very same day as when the Old Covenant was given.

In summary
Partaking in the Pesach meal, made you part of the old covenant, and NOW partaking in His body we become part of His New Covenant. Both occurring on the 15th.

Hope this helps.

Shalom

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Three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, which is precisely where the dungeon of the high priest was located, below ground, under the residence of the high priest. As for Pilate having a prison, I don't know if something like that has been discovered or not, but surely it would have existed.