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BobRyan

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Does Hebrews 10:26-31 say that those who do not keep the Saturday sabbath are not saved?

No --

It also does not say "those who covet are not saved".
It also does not say those who bow before images "are not saved"
It also does not say "the Bible has only two chapters in it"

Heb 10:
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

What's your point?

Does it have anything to do with the term "Lord's Day"???
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks for the information.

Ignatius of Antioch, then, does the same thing; he uses the single word "Lord's" to mean the Lord's day, the first day of the week.
(It would be fascinating to know, in line with the thread, if the Acts of John does the same thing. But it may not be possible on this forum.)

That such a shorthand could become commonplace by the middle of the second century says to me that either

there was a massive and rapid apostasy in the early church

or (more likely imo)

Christians generally thought of the first day of the week as the Lord's Day from the earliest times.

That's kind of what it boils down to. One can either believe that there was an almost instantaneous, rapid, and full-blown apostasy right from the get-go--which basically means Jesus lied when He said "the gates of Hades will not stand against it", and even so, we can't trust anything in the Bible anyway since the Bible is a product of that apostate church.

Or one can believe that Jesus Christ is faithful to His word, and that His Church has indeed been moving right down through history boldly confessing Jesus Christ in the world. One doesn't have believe the Church has always had it all gotten together and figured out, or that the Church is infallible; but there is a very real sense that if we can't put any trust into the Church, then we start losing the ability to trust almost anything else. Because whether anyone likes it or not, the only reason any of us today are even able to have this conversation and call ourselves Christians and even read from a Bible is because each and every single one of us has heard about Jesus from other believers in Jesus, who heard it from others. And that goes all the way back to Jesus and His Apostles.

This is why, I believe, it's important when we confess that we believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" in the Nicene Creed. That's not saying, "I put my faith in fallible men", that's saying, "I put my faith in the faithful God". We believe in the Church because we believe in the faithfulness of God to His Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I don't have access to that kind of material, sadly--nor would I know where to find it unfortunately.

Your note about the use of the term "Lord's" without "day" is generally accurate. We usually see kyriake "Lord's", without the additional hemera "day"; and thus in translation context is necessary to understand that "day" is implied (and is so provided in translation for clarity for the modern reader).

For example here is St. Ignatius of Antioch's Epistle to the Magnesians (9:1-2):

"If then those who lived by ancient practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's Day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny); by which mystery we have come to believe and because of which we are enduring, in order that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher." - Ignatius Epistle to the Magnesians 9:1-2

Here is the original Greek:

"Εἰ οὖν οἱ ἐν παλαιοῖς πράγμασιν ἀναστραφέντες εἰς καινότητα ἐλπίδος ἦλθον, μηκέτι σαββατίζοντες, ἀλλὰ κατὰ κυριακὴν ζῶντες, ἐν ᾗ καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἡμῶν ἀνέτειλεν δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ, ὅν τινες ἀρνοῦνται, δι᾿ οὗ μυστηρίου ἐλάβομεν τὸ πιστεύειν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ὑπομένομεν, ἵνα εὑρεθῶμεν μαθηταὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ μόνου διδασκάλου ἡμῶν·"

Ignatius contrasts the Sabbath with the Kyriake[n] ("[the] Lord's"), which he says is the day on which Christ rose and gave us life.

So Ignatius is obviously talking about a day, and so translators translate this as "Lord's day" for the benefit of the reader, because translating this as "no longer keeping the sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's, on which our life also arose..." leads the reader to ask, "the Lord's what"?. Since it's obvious from context that this term consistently indicates a day when we find it in Christian writing, it becomes clear that this is the term which early Christians called this day. And this is reflected in many languages, where the first day of the week is derived from from Kyriake or its Latin translation, such as in many different languages where the first day of the week is a form of Domingo, from Latin dominus a translation of Greek kyrie. Even modern Greek doesn't call this by the ancient name after the sun, but calls the first day of the week is Kyriaki.

For Christians the association with Christ on this day, the first day of the week, changed what Christians called that day, especially amongst themselves (see Justin Martyr's First Apology to see him use "day of the sun" when writing to Pagans).

Any suggestion that it was actually the Sabbath is entirely without support, and exists solely in the imagination of those who try desperately to re-interpret and change the meaning of Scripture and provide absolutely flimsy arguments to support it.

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I imagine that a lot of the "the Sabbath is the Lord's day" arguments basically hinge on Jesus saying that He is Lord of the Sabbath, and that the Sabbath was made for man, etc. Which, obviously, doesn't even come close to meaning that Christians called the Sabbath "the Lord's Day". But that's what the Sabbatarians want you to believe, purely because they say so.

Like most conspiracy theories (and yes, I am saying that Sabbatarianism fits within the general scope of conspiracy theory), facts that don't agree with the conspiracy theory, and which in fact contradict it, themselves simply become "evidence" of the conspiracy. For example, we have photographic images of the earth from things we've sent into space, but flat earthers tell themselves that these are all fake. Why are these photographs fake? Because it's part of the conspiracy to tell everyone the earth is a globe instead of flat.

Why don't the historical facts line up with what Sabbatarians say? Well, it must be because "history is written by the victors" and the big bad Roman Catholic Church and/or the Emperor Constantine so completely perverted "Real Christianity"--and all these sources that contradict the Sabbatarian claim are simply examples of Roman Catholic tampering or some such nonsense. And if we look at a few other things, completely out of context mind you, and then if you tilt your head, squint your eyes, and then just make something up--well then you can get the kind of pseudo-historical revisionism you see in these groups.

I want to be clear here, when I say "Sabbatarian" I'm not talking about observant Jews, nor am I talking about Christians who simply voluntarily choose to rest on Saturday. I'm talking about those who teach that Sabbath-keeping (and, very often, Torah-observance more broadly) is part of Christian faith and practice. I'm talking about a specific view that is entirely out of alignment with biblical, historic, faithful Christianity as it has been practiced for the last two thousand years.

-CryptoLutheran

None of which is scripture but teachings and traditions of men that have left Gods' Word in order for follow man-made teachings and traditions that are not supported in the scriptures. Thank you for proving my point that there is no scripture showing that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day".

Take Care.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I will have to disagree with you regarding this statement:

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I imagine that a lot of the "the Sabbath is the Lord's day" arguments basically hinge on Jesus saying that He is Lord of the Sabbath, and that the Sabbath was made for man, etc.

While you are welcome to your opinion, God clearly claimed a day and the day that He claimed was from the very beginning of Creation before sin. I also would not be so quick to dismiss the words where Jesus tells us the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 because I would not want to miss out on that blessing!

Genesis 1 refers to the six days of creation, but on the seventh day God rested from His work blessed and sanctified the seventh day Genesis 2:1-3 which He did not do for days one through six. This model- work six days, keep holy the seventh day is the same model He commanded for us. Exodus 20:8-11. God does not need rest, this was an example set for us which is shown all through scripture that we should follow in His steps and be more like Him.

This is God’s authority and He claimed His day very clearly.

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord

It really can’t be any more clearer than this. The holy day of the Lord thy God is the seventh day. This is indisputable. The Lords day is the seventh day. The first six days are working days according to God. Exodus 20:9, Genesis 1 This really should be the end of this discussion because you will not find in scripture that says the first day is the holy day of the Lord thy God, or the first day is the day God blessed and sanctified, or the first day is the holy day for man. People only refer to outside the Bible when it comes to Sunday being the Lords day as there is no such biblical scripture. Sunday is a tradition created by man, it goes against the opposite of the the commandment from God and example Jesus left who kept the Sabbath and the example the apostles left who kept the Sabbath. The Sabbath will continue to be the Lord’s chosen day of worship after Jesus comes for eternity Isaiah 66:23 just like He commanded us written by His own finger! You cannot get stronger evidence than this.

God bless
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Please share the sources from the time of the apostles to about the end of the second century. Thanks loads!

No problems, let me dig them up. Just give me a reminder if I don't get to it shortly.
 
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ViaCrucis

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ViaCrucis

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I will have to disagree with you regarding this statement:



While you are welcome to your opinion, God clearly claimed a day and the day that He claimed was from the very beginning of Creation before sin. I also would not be so quick to dismiss the words where Jesus tells us the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 because I would not want to miss out on that blessing!

Genesis 1 refers to the six days of creation, but on the seventh day God rested from His work blessed and sanctified the seventh day Genesis 2:1-3 which He did not do for days one through six. This model- work six days, keep holy the seventh day is the same model He commanded for us. Exodus 20:8-11. God does not need rest, this was an example set for us which is shown all through scripture that we should follow in His steps and be more like Him.

This is God’s authority and He claimed His day very clearly.

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord

It really can’t be any more clearer than this. The holy day of the Lord thy God is the seventh day. This is indisputable. The Lords day is the seventh day. The first six days are working days according to God. Exodus 20:9, Genesis 1 This really should be the end of this discussion because you will not find in scripture that says the first day is the holy day of the Lord thy God, or the first day is the day God blessed and sanctified, or the first day is the holy day for man. People only refer to outside the Bible when it comes to Sunday being the Lords day as there is no such biblical scripture. Sunday is a tradition created by man, it goes against the opposite of the the commandment from God and example Jesus left who kept the Sabbath and the example the apostles left who kept the Sabbath. The Sabbath will continue to be the Lord’s chosen day of worship after Jesus comes for eternity Isaiah 66:23 just like He commanded us written by His own finger! You cannot get stronger evidence than this.

God bless

And, just like I said, there it is. Again, just like clockwork.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Danthemailman

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Christians accept Christ as Savior and have what 2 Thess 2 calls "a Love of the truth".

which makes perfect sense since Jesus Is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" John 14.
Yes, receiving Christ as Savior (John 1:12; Romans 10:9,10) and love characterizes true Christians. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And like clockwork there it is.
-CryptoLutheran
Well that is my point. There is no scripture that supports the man-made teaching and tradition that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day". Sunday as "the Lords day" is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from Gods' and His Word and is not supported in the scriptures. It is against the very teachings of Jesus which we are warned not to do in Matthew 15:3-9.

Take Care.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes. . .which Jesus did in giving us permanent rest from our own work to save, and rest in him who saves us to the uttermost.
We are now in God's own full-time Sabbath rest, there is no more rest we can do than the full-time rest we are in..

Thanks for the response, but I noticed you did not address my post. Fulfill in Matthew 5:17 does not mean “do away with” as Jesus clearly tells us Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. When we fulfill our obligation it means we keep it, not disregard.

Not sure why you singled out the Sabbath in your response either because Jesus is referring to all of the commandments. Rest in Christ is not the same as the 4th commandment, keeping the Sabbath day holy and I noticed you did not post scripture that says that Jesus gives us permanent rest and that deletes the Sabbath commandment.

We do not receive the rest in Christ which is the blessing we receive by our obedience. This is clearly demonstrated in Hebrews 4, The Israelites did not receive the gospel rest because of disobedience and Ezekiel 20:13 tells us what they disobeyed- the Sabbath commandment. God blesses us when we obey, another example Isaiah 58:13-14

God defined the Sabbath commandment as the holy Sabbath day which is on the seventh day. Exodus 20:8-11

While we are free to believe whatever we want, once we learn the Truth its best we don’t continue in error because the whole point of scripture is to seek God in Truth and Spirit.

Jesus is our example and kept the Sabbath commandment Luke 4:16, John 15:10 The Sabbath is such a blessing and a delight and God wants us to keep holy the same day that is holy to Him. Exodus 20:8 Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13.

Take care and God bless.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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And, just like I said, there it is. Again, just like clockwork.

-CryptoLutheran
The Truth always comes out. You’re welcome to provide scripture that disagrees, but you know and I know, there is none.

Take care.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The Truth always comes out. You’re welcome to provide scripture that disagrees, but you know and I know, there is none.

Take care.

Are you seriously claiming that there is no alternative presentation of scripture that refutes your position?

You have been presented with alternative understandings of scripture again and again and dismiss them.

Full marks for your presentation.

No marks for listening and reasoning.

No marks for repeatedly avoiding simple questions.

No marks for presenting a thesis that is both divisive and judgemental.

We get the message - only Seventh day Sabbath keepers go to heaven.

Sad...
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Are you seriously claiming that there is no alternative presentation of scripture that refutes your position?

You have been presented with alternative understandings of scripture again and again and dismiss them.

Full marks for your presentation.

No marks for listening and reasoning.

No marks for repeatedly avoiding simple questions.

No marks for presenting a thesis that is both divisive and judgemental.

We get the message - only Seventh day Sabbath keepers go to heaven.

Sad...

I see you did not offer scripture that disagrees with what God told us about His holy Sabbath day, I am sticking with the clear written Word of God!
 
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Carl Emerson

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I see you did not offer scripture that disagrees with what God told us about His holy Sabbath day, I am sticking with the clear written Word of God!

Tried that to no effect, you seem to be in an echo chamber...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Are you seriously claiming that there is no alternative presentation of scripture that refutes your position?
Yes this is exactly what we are saying Carl. There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that says that "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week. Sunday as "the Lords day" is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from Gods' and His Word and is not supported in the scriptures. It is against the very teachings of Jesus which we are warned not to do in Matthew 15:3-9

Take Care Carl
 
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Torah Keeper

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That's kind of what it boils down to. One can either believe that there was an almost instantaneous, rapid, and full-blown apostasy right from the get-go--which basically means Jesus lied when He said "the gates of Hades will not stand against it", and even so, we can't trust anything in the Bible anyway since the Bible is a product of that apostate church.

Or one can believe that Jesus Christ is faithful to His word, and that His Church has indeed been moving right down through history boldly confessing Jesus Christ in the world. One doesn't have believe the Church has always had it all gotten together and figured out, or that the Church is infallible; but there is a very real sense that if we can't put any trust into the Church, then we start losing the ability to trust almost anything else. Because whether anyone likes it or not, the only reason any of us today are even able to have this conversation and call ourselves Christians and even read from a Bible is because each and every single one of us has heard about Jesus from other believers in Jesus, who heard it from others. And that goes all the way back to Jesus and His Apostles.

This is why, I believe, it's important when we confess that we believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" in the Nicene Creed. That's not saying, "I put my faith in fallible men", that's saying, "I put my faith in the faithful God". We believe in the Church because we believe in the faithfulness of God to His Church.

-CryptoLutheran

So why are you Lutheran then? If you believe the original Christian church is infallible, shouldn't you be Orthodox, or Roman Catholic, or Messianic? Why say what you just said yet be part of a denomination that did not exist until the 16th century? You seem to contradict yourself here. Yeshua was born a Jew, lived a Jew, died a Jew, and was resurrected a Jew. Christianity was a sect of Judaism. So when you talk about the gates of Hades not prevailing, that is not against the Roman Catholic church, as it did not exist until the 4th century. The original church is Messianic Jews.
 
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Ceallaigh

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To which we always answer that there are saved saints in all denominations (for the bazillionth time)



because "bazillion" is not quite "often enough"

One of the early SDAs has often been quoted this way --
"No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion." . {Ev 234.2}

I'm sure you know the straightforward question is seeking a straightforward yes or no answer, which I've never seen given. I concur with others the reason for that is because the answer is yes, but saying yes directly would violate CF rules, so it's said indirectly.
 
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