Is the Lord's Day Saturday according to Acts of John (Apocryphal)?

Kilk1 · Jan 25, 2022

BobRyan said:
I don't think leaf is correct. They are not numbering the days of fast and never say how many days he fasted. The reference makes more sense as indicating that during the fast - he broke the fast for the "Lord's Day". (It was not permitted to fast on Sabbath)

"And on the seventh day, it being the Lord's day, he said to them: Now it is time for me also to partake of food. And having washed his hands and face, he prayed, and brought out the linen cloth, and took one of the dates, and ate it in the sight of all. And when they had ridden a long time they came to the end of their journey, John thus fasting. And they brought him before the king, and said:..."

In any case - the Bible already tells us which day is the Lord's day.

Is 58:13
the Sabbath
13 “If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,

I didn't know it wasn't permitted to fast on the Sabbath. For reference, where is this taught?

Kilk1 · Jan 25, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Are you asking when the entire document was written?

The best guess is that it is a collection of stories, some dating from the early 100's AD. That's not too long after John himself lived.

Acts of John - Wikipedia

If so, and it's a second-century reference, then it'd be significant if, hypothetically, it called the Lord's Day the seventh day of the week. (However, as you argue, this may not be the case.)

But there are actually two Acts of John: One of them "refers to a collection of stories about John the Apostle that began circulating in written form as early as the 2nd-century AD," while the other one "is a 4th-century Christian apocryphal text that presents stories about the Apostle John."

Which one is Acts of John (Apocryphal)? Can anyone verify?

Kilk1 · Jan 25, 2022

Leaf473 said:
The thread title is asking according to the Acts of John.

Why does it matter? Because those who lived close to the time of the apostles, those who grew up with the same culture and language, may have valuable insights into what the apostles meant.

One can compare the passage from the Acts of John to Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of the apostle John (or possibly a disciple of a disciple).

"...no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day..."

Quotes from Early Church Fathers: the Sabbath, Lord's Day, and Worship - Apostles Creed

The reference from Ignatius is significant. Should we believe that Acts of John (Apocryphal) would contradict Ignatius? With the exception of the argument I recently heard from Acts of John (Apocryphal), I never heard it claimed that any historical reference close to the New Testament calls the Sabbath the Lord's Day.

Leaf473 · Jan 25, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
No. The thread title says .. Is the Lord's Day Saturday according to Acts of John (Apocryphal)? These so called "Church fathers" are not scripture and many of them in my view if they teach tradition over the scriptures they have no weight with me if your trying to put them before Gods' Word. My claim would simply be where is the scriptures that teach "Sunday" is "the Lords day"? - There is none.

Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of some in the early Church (many continued keeping the Sabbath) that has led many away from God and His Word to break God's 4th commandment. Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9 says that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. If we are not worshiping God by breaking Gods' commandments through tradition who are we worshiping God or man? This is the test that will becoming to everyone of us.

God's people according to the scriptures I believe are in every Church (John 10:16) and in times of ignorance when we do not know any better God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word calls all men every where to believe and follow it (Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17; Hebrews 10:26-31). Jesus says that the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers wherever they might be must worship the father in Spirit and in truth for God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth (Mark 4:23-24).

BABYLON has fallen *Revelation 14:7-12; Revelation 17:1-5 and God is calling His people out from following man made teachings and traditions to return to the pure Word of God *Revelation 18:1-5. According to Jesus, God's sheep will hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear will not follow because they are not His sheep (John 10:26-27).

Jesus is calling us back to His Word. "Fear God therefore and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." - Revelation 14:7. God's 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath *Exodus 20:8-11 is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to James if we knowingly break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11.

Take Care

The thread title refers to the Acts of John.

(Everyone is welcome to answer the questions below.)

I think people who lived close to the time of the apostles can provide us with valuable insights about their language and practices, don't you?

If so, do you think the writer of the Acts of John is referring to the seventh day of the week or the seventh day of the fast? Do you think the writer continued keeping the Sabbath, as you say above?

Kilk1 · Jan 25, 2022

Leaf473 said:
The thread title refers to the Acts of John.

(Everyone is welcome to answer the questions below.)

I think people who lived close to the time of the apostles can provide us with valuable insights about their language and practices, don't you?

If so, do you think the writer of the Acts of John is referring to the seventh day of the week or the seventh day of the fast? Do you think the writer continued keeping the Sabbath, as you say above?

Yes, as you said, this thread is simply about what this one specific source, Acts of John (Apocryphal), teaches. It isn't necessarily about whether Acts of John (Apocryphal) is correct. Therefore, questions critiquing the accuracy of the text's teachings isn't really what the OP is about, but rather, what the text says in the first place.

Leaf473 · Jan 25, 2022

Kilk1 said:
If so, and it's a second-century reference, then it'd be significant if, hypothetically, it called the Lord's Day the seventh day of the week. (However, as you argue, this may not be the case.)

But there are actually two Acts of John: One of them "refers to a collection of stories about John the Apostle that began circulating in written form as early as the 2nd-century AD," while the other one "is a 4th-century Christian apocryphal text that presents stories about the Apostle John."

Which one is Acts of John (Apocryphal)? Can anyone verify?

I don't know which Acts of John it is, or when it was written.

I do know that once you begin to scratch the surface of early Church documents, it's surprising how many there are. And, although it may be outside the scope of this thread, it's interesting to me to think about what it must have been like back then at the time that they were deciding which of those documents were scripture. Clement? Hebrews? III John?

SabbathBlessings · Jan 25, 2022

Kilk1 said:
I agree that the seventh day better fits the seventh day of the fast, not the Sabbath (Saturday). Looking into it more, I found that the other historical references we have of the Lord's Day place it on Sunday, the day after the Sabbath (Saturday):

Lord's Day - Wikipedia

Instead of saying that the Acts of John (Apocryphal) contradicts the other historical references, it makes sense to say that they all agree, and "the seventh day" simply means day 7 of the fast, and even more so if considering your point that the Sabbath (Saturday) isn't typically called "the seventh day."

Oh, sure thing! It can be found here:

The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

The Sabbath is the seventh day according to God.
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
God made everything in six days Genesis 1 and rested the seventh day Genes 2:1-3.

Jesus rose on the first day, which is not Saturday, the seventh day. Jesus kept the Sabbath even in death and rose on the first day back to His work.

The week has never changed and is a 7 day cycle regardless of what calendar is used or what man wrote on Wikipedia. We should follow the bible and the Word of God.

Leaf473 · Jan 25, 2022

Kilk1 said:
The reference from Ignatius is significant. Should we believe that Acts of John (Apocryphal) would contradict Ignatius? With the exception of the argument I recently heard from Acts of John (Apocryphal), I never heard it claimed that any historical reference close to the New Testament calls the Sabbath the Lord's Day.

Hard to say if the Acts of John would contradict Ignatius. There was some amount of unity in the early church, but how much? Again, hard to say and it also depends on who you ask

I don't know of any documents close to the New testament that call the seventh day of the week the Lord's day, either. If anyone has a reference, please post it!

BobRyan · Jan 25, 2022

Kilk1 said:
I didn't know it wasn't permitted to fast on the Sabbath. For reference, where is this taught?

Isaiah 58

Leaf473 · Jan 25, 2022

BobRyan said:
Isaiah 58

Well of course this is going to be subjective, but it looks to me like that passage is actually encouraging fasting on the Sabbath.

It's just saying Don't just give up food, take the food that you gave up and give it to the poor.

And then do the same with clothes and so on.

############
It seems very possible to me that John had been fasting for 7 days, and the 7th day of the fast was the first day of the week.

Carl Emerson · Jan 25, 2022

Given that the resolution of the question put plainly so many times...

(Are those who worship on Sunday not saved)

And the reluctance to give a plain answer...

I conclude the following.

An acid test of theology is - does it align with what scripture tells us about the character of God.

Where we are left after this conversation is billions going to hell because they haven't appreciated a highly specific technical take on scripture that supports God demanding Sabbath keeping on a specific day.

Such a ruthless judgement favouring a tiny group on this basis is diabolical.

Honestly - enjoy your Sabbath keeping all you want - I rejoice with you.

But don't keep presenting the argument that billions go to hell for not appreciating scripture quite the way you do.

God does not judge on a theological technicality He sees the heart and His Love is enormous.

If such a requirement was a critical condition of salvation the matter would be plain for any innocent seeker to see.

As an aside I am well aware that if you were to answer the plain question above (in brackets) with a 'yes', instead of presenting more scripture, and complicating the issue, you might risk being thought to be violating the rules of CF.

Danthemailman · Jan 25, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Given that the resolution of the question put plainly so many times...

(Are those who worship on Sunday not saved)

And the reluctance to give a plain answer...

I conclude the following.

An acid test of theology is - does it align with what scripture tells us about the character of God.

Where we are left after this conversation is billions going to hell because they haven't appreciated a highly specific technical take on scripture that supports God demanding Sabbath keeping on a specific day.

Such a ruthless judgement favouring a tiny group on this basis is diabolical.

Honestly - enjoy your Sabbath keeping all you want - I rejoice with you.

But don't keep presenting the argument that billions go to hell for not appreciating scripture quite the way you do.

God does not judge on a theological technicality He sees the heart and His Love is enormous.

If such a requirement was a critical condition of salvation the matter would be plain for any innocent seeker to see.

As an aside I am well aware that if you were to answer the plain question above (in brackets) with a 'yes', instead of presenting more scripture, and complicating the issue, you might risk being thought to be violating the rules of CF.

Even though they are reluctant to answer the question we already know their answer to the question.

Mark of the Beast

Ceallaigh · Jan 25, 2022

There's always ways of clearly saying something without saying it directly.

I think most would read what is being said as saying, you're not saved if you don't keep the Saturday sabbath.

Carl Emerson · Jan 25, 2022

BobRyan said:
Isaiah 58

I don't think Is 58 teaches this at all...

BobRyan · Jan 25, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Well of course this is going to be subjective, but it looks to me like that passage is actually encouraging fasting on the Sabbath.

Not a food fast...

Rather sharing one's table with the poor.

5 “Is it a fast like this which I choose, a day for a man to humble himself?
Is it for bowing one’s head like a reed
And for spreading out sackcloth and ashes as a bed?
Will you call this a fast, even an acceptable day to the Lord?
6 “Is this not the fast which I choose,
To loosen the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the bands of the yoke,
And to let the oppressed go free
And break every yoke?
7 “Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry
And bring the homeless poor into the house;
When you see the naked, to cover him;
And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Carl Emerson said:
I don't think Is 58 teaches this at all...

You have free - you can think whatever you wish of course

BobRyan · Jan 25, 2022

MMXX said:
I think most would read what is being said as saying, you're not saved if you don't keep the Saturday sabbath.

Most would say you have to quote something first to make that claim.

BobRyan · Jan 25, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Given that the resolution of the question put plainly so many times...

(Are those who worship on Sunday not saved)

To which we always answer that there are saved saints in all denominations (for the bazillionth time)

Danthemailman said:
Even though they are reluctant to answer the question ....

because "bazillion" is not quite "often enough"

One of the early SDAs has often been quoted this way --
"No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion." . {Ev 234.2}

Carl Emerson · Jan 25, 2022

I have always read this (Isaiah 58) as a response to hypocritical fasting in general.

Carl Emerson · Jan 25, 2022

BobRyan said:
To which we always answer that there are saved saints in all denominations (for the bazillionth time)

because "bazillion" is not quite "often enough"

We are asking LGW though - he should speak for himself.

BobRyan · Jan 25, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
We are asking LGW though - he should speak for himself.

well you don't quote anyone in your post - to single out who you are talking to and at least one person here said "they don't respond" so I assumed more than one person is being referenced.

I could be mistaken.

I am happy to wait and see what LGW thinks of my post in that regard #137

Is the Lord's Day Saturday according to Acts of John (Apocryphal)?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Similar threads