"The Law is for the Jews."

HARK!

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19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised.

The word is not child. The word is seed. Mistranslations cause much confusion.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

There is no sin in Yahshua. If we are in Yahshua; we are not bringing sin into Yahshua. If we are sinning; we have departed from Yahshua.

YHWH will not allow adultery on the floor before his throne. He will not dwell in a temple that is dedicated to a throne that is elevated above his.
 
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HARK!

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Adding the last sentence does not change the fact that the Law ended with the coming of Jesus as you should be able to plainly see.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

I'm on earth.
 
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HARK!

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The Sinai covenant didn't nullify the Abrahamic covenant because the Abrahamic covenant didn't have a qualifier. The Sinai covenant did and was a simple "IF". EX 19:5-6 5 Now if you will obey me and keep my covenant, you will be my own special treasure from among all the peoples on earth; for all the earth belongs to me. 6 And you will be my kingdom of priests, my holy nation.’ This is the message you must give to the people of Israel.”

The fact still remains that one covenant doesn't nulliy another.

Yahshua didn't break YHWH's covenant with Israel.

Paul didn't break YHWH's covenant with Israel, even after YHWH renewed that covenant through Yahshua.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

Moses (The Law) is about Yahshua.

Paul believed Moses.

Paul believed Yahshua.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

In faithfulness Paul sustained the Torah.


(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

Paul didn't transgress the Torah.

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

He became blameless by believing Yahshua, and following Yahshua's example to our Father's instructions.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.


Paul became a slave to YHWH's Torah.
 
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HARK!

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Yes, the laws of the covenant were to serve Israel forever IF they obeyed them.

YHWH's Torah of the covenant ARE to serve Yahsar El IF WE obey HIM.

We have a loving Father who wants what is best for us.

He is not giving away his son in marriage, to those who will continue to practice adultery.
 
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HARK!

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I hope you mean the laws God gave Abraham and not the ones He gave to Israel 430 years later. Obeying laws was not what saved Abraham. He was still a sinner saved only by the grace of Jesus who died that we might have life everlasting.

(CLV) 2Jn 1:6
And this is love, that we may be walking according to His precepts. This is the precept, according as you hear from the beginning, that you may be walking in it;

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

YesheYahu (Isa) 43:
11 I, even I, am YHWH; and beside Me there is no savior
 
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HARK!

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Again, if you are referring to the laws given at Sinai you would have a poor grasp of what we are told in Deut 5: 2 “The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today. Should I have to elaborate more?

Do you understand the difference between a contract and an instruction?
 
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Bob S

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YHWH's Torah of the covenant ARE to serve Yahsar El IF WE obey HIM.
Was my friend. Torah ended at Calvary. All mankind are now under the laws of the new covenant. Israel, of course, is no longer under the laws of the retired covenant.

We have a loving Father who wants what is best for us.
Amen!!!

He is not giving away his son in marriage, to those who will continue to practice adultery.
Do you believe anyone believes He is?
 
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HARK!

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Was my friend. Torah ended at Calvary. All mankind are now under the laws of the new covenant. Israel, of course, is no longer under the laws of the retired covenant.

Again, one covenant doesn't annul another covenant. YHWH's word is an expression of his nature. YHWH doesn't change, nor does his Torah.

YHWH's is forever.

YHWH's law is forever.

Deuteronomy 29:29 CJB
29 "Things which are hidden belong to ADONAI our God. But the things that have been revealed belong to us and our children forever, so that we can observe all the words of this Torah.

Do you not believe Moses?
 
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Bob S

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The word is not child. The word is seed. Mistranslations cause much confusion.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

There is no sin in Yahshua. If we are in Yahshua; we are not bringing sin into Yahshua. If we are sinning; we have departed from Yahshua.

YHWH will not allow adultery on the floor before his throne. He will not dwell in a temple that is dedicated to a throne that is elevated above his.
What makes you so sure you have the right translation. The CLV was written by a know person that didn't believe in the Trinity.
 
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"The Law is for the Jews." What a ridiculous assertion. First of all what is a Jew? The letter J didn't even exist until recent history.

Is it a Judaean? If so would this include non believers who reside in Judea? That doesn't work.

Is it someone of the tribe of Judah? What if he doesn't believe? That doesn't work either.

Is it the Yahudim (Yah's people)? Well this I would have to agree with; but that's not the implication that is being presented by people who make this assertion. Are not Christians Yah's people? I propose that the Law is for those who are spiritual. The Law is spiritual.

For those who would insist that adherence to the law as being a matter of physical genealogy; the Law was given to more than the tribe of Judah. It was given to all 12 tribes. The Northern Tribes were carried off, scattered throughout the world, and assimilated into the Gentiles.

By this definition, are you a Jew?

Here is the first test: Account for every paternal ancestor back to the time of Jacob.

Can you do that?

Excellent!

You move on to the second round!

There were more than the descendants of Jacob who entered covenant in Egypt and/or at Sinai.

Many descendants of Jacob remained in Egypt; but many of the nations followed the El of Israel, entered covenant, and became fellow citizens of Israel. The law is for all of their generations too, as YHWH commanded.

Here is the second test: Account for every person, who is not of Jacob, who entered covenant at Egypt/Sinai, and all of their progeny.

Can you do that?

Congratulations!

Please share this information with the lost sheep; so that they don't remain lost until Messiah finds them.

You move onto the bonus round!

Now prove through all of your ancestry that you are in no way a descendant of anyone who entered covenant along with Moses.



Shabbat shalom!

I'm sure there are many "Jews" that were not physical descendants of Jacob originally. There were some proselytes even after the exodus, and likely many more over 3500 years blended into the mix. Also, the 10 tribes taken by the Assyrians did not include every single person, only the elite. The poor were left in the land. Hence Anna at Jesus' circumcision from the tribe of Asher, etc.

However, your post brings up Ezekiel 40-48 in my mind. Ezekiel's Temple has yet to be built and the land of Israel yet to be divided as written there. We also know it is impossible for scripture to fail. Therefore, these things are still to come. The land is divided up for the 12 tribes of Israel. It seems the physical descendants of Jacob remain important to God, even til the end. By extension, the Jews' distinction from Gentiles remains to the end, even after the church is eventually grafted in. How do you understand this?

As to your topic on who the Law applies to, it is a lengthy subject, but... The moral law of God has applied to every people of every generation since creation. Concerning the feasts, Temple rules and ordinances, etc. of Moses, that law applies to the children of Israel, a people God knew from the beginning would largely not believe Him. There has never been more than a remnant of believers in Israel. That gives a big clue as to why Israel was chosen! It wasn't for our/their faith.

There are two blood covenants, not one. The first blood covenant during Moses was made with the Israelites. That covenant/law applied to the Israelites, and still applies to those of Israel who do not believe God. Thus, the extra burdens. Jesus made a second blood covenant with those who do believe God, which was even extended to the Gentiles. Both covenants still apply today, but as Paul said, the unbelievers in the first covenant will not inherit with those of the second covenant. Israel was promised land on earth. The church was not because the church is not staying on the earth. The church are the Levites of the eternal kingdom, separated from the other peoples. Just as the Levites were not given any land inheritance because God Himself is their inheritance. The Temple modeled the kingdom of heaven.

Any person, including Jews, who believe in Jesus and do what He said has been freed from the first blood covenant and entered into a better blood covenant. Therefore, the rules and ordinance of Moses no longer apply. Those burdens are for the unbelievers of Israel. God's moral laws always apply, of course. It is sad to me how some Messianics, SDA's, etc. try to create a hybrid covenant between the first and second covenant. You cannot do both. Lukewarm doesn't work. Just pick one. Clinging to the first covenant is rejecting the second one.

Btw, the covenant Jesus made, generally called the new/second covenant has actually been in place from the beginning of creation. "The just will live by faith," better translated "the just, by their faith, shall live" has always applied. Long before the law of Moses. The people of old may not have known the name of Jesus, but their faith in the true God was faith in Jesus all along.
 
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HARK!

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Also, the 10 tribes taken by the Assyrians did not include every single person, only the elite. The poor were left in the land. Hence Anna at Jesus' circumcision from the tribe of Asher, etc.

(CLV) 2Ki 17:18
So Yahweh showed Himself exceedingly angered with Israel and put them away, out of His presence. None remained but the tribe of Judah by itself alone.

(CLV) 2Ki 17:26
So they complained to the king of Assyria, saying-, The nations that you deported and made dwell in the cities of Samaria do not know the customs of the elohim of the land. Hence he sent lions among them. And behold, they are putting them to death, since there are none among them knowing the customs of the elohim of the land.

(CLV) 2Ki 17:27
Then the king of Assyria gave instruction, saying, Have one of the priests go back there whom you had deported from there; let him go and let him dwell there; let him direct them as to the customs of the elohim of the land.

(CLV) 2Ki 17:28
So one of the priests whom they had deported from Samaria came and dwelt in Bethel; he was directing them how they should fear Yahweh.
 
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Bob S

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Again, one covenant doesn't annul another covenant.
Abraham covenant is perpetual. Sinai covenant WAS "IF". I believe I explained that quite well in a previous post.

YHWH's word is an expression of his nature. YHWH doesn't change, nor does his Torah.
Sorry Hark that is not true. The Sinai covenant was conditional from the get-go. Israel didn't live up to the words of the covenant. God had every right to revoke the covenant and of course He did just that.


Deuteronomy 29:29 CJB
29 "Things which are hidden belong to ADONAI our God. But the things that have been revealed belong to us and our children forever, so that we can observe all the words of this Torah.

Do you not believe Moses?
And it would have been forever if the Israelites had kept their end of the bargain.

Do you believe in Paul?
 
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Bob S

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I'm sure there are many "Jews" that were not physical descendants of Jacob originally. There were some proselytes even after the exodus, and likely many more over 3500 years blended into the mix. Also, the 10 tribes taken by the Assyrians did not include every single person, only the elite. The poor were left in the land. Hence Anna at Jesus' circumcision from the tribe of Asher, etc.

However, your post brings up Ezekiel 40-48 in my mind. Ezekiel's Temple has yet to be built and the land of Israel yet to be divided as written there. We also know it is impossible for scripture to fail. Therefore, these things are still to come. The land is divided up for the 12 tribes of Israel. It seems the physical descendants of Jacob remain important to God, even til the end. By extension, the Jews' distinction from Gentiles remains to the end, even after the church is eventually grafted in. How do you understand this?
Blood lines over the hundreds of years are so mixed that to find one pure blooded Benjaminite or any one in all the tribes would be impossible. By the way, the Levites didn't' even own an land. What changed?

As to your topic on who the Law applies to, it is a lengthy subject, but... The moral law of God has applied to every people of every generation since creation. Concerning the feasts, Temple rules and ordinances, etc. of Moses, that law applies to the children of Israel, a people God knew from the beginning would largely not believe Him. There has never been more than a remnant of believers in Israel. That gives a big clue as to why Israel was chosen! It wasn't for our/their faith.

There are two blood covenants, not one. The first blood covenant during Moses was made with the Israelites. That covenant/law applied to the Israelites, and still applies to those of Israel who do not believe God. Thus, the extra burdens.
Please provide scripture to back up that some are still under the Sinai covenant. The Sinai covenant was conditional and I believe it is very evident that it ended when the new and better covenant for all mankind was ratified with the Blood of Jesus. What extra burdens???


Jesus made a second blood covenant with those who do believe God, which was even extended to the Gentiles. Both covenants still apply today, but as Paul said, the unbelievers in the first covenant will not inherit with those of the second covenant.
Again, some scripture to back-up your statement would be appreciated.

Israel was promised land on earth. The church was not because the church is not staying on the earth. The church are the Levites of the eternal kingdom, separated from the other peoples. Just as the Levites were not given any land inheritance because God Himself is their inheritance. The Temple modeled the kingdom of heaven.
Israel was promised land for his offspring and they received it. I don't understand your second sentence nor the remainder of your thought. Where does it tell us God Himself is their inheritance?

Any person, including Jews, who believe in Jesus and do what He said has been freed from the first blood covenant and entered into a better blood covenant.
How could that be true my friend? Gentiles were never under the Sinai covenant. How could we be freed from it when we were never under it? And, since the Sinai covenant ended at Calvary where the new covenant was ratified Jews at that point were freed from the Sinai covenant.

Therefore, the rules and ordinance of Moses no longer apply. Those burdens are for the unbelievers of Israel. God's moral laws always apply, of course. It is sad to me how some Messianics, SDA's, etc. try to create a hybrid covenant between the first and second covenant. You cannot do both. Lukewarm doesn't work. Just pick one. Clinging to the first covenant is rejecting the second one.
Those burdens were for all of Israel not just unbelievers and do not apply to any one and have not since Calvary.

Yes, it is very sad and I truly believe that part of your statement.

Btw, the covenant Jesus made, generally called the new/second covenant has actually been in place from the beginning of creation. "The just will live by faith," better translated "the just, by their faith, shall live" has always applied. Long before the law of Moses. The people of old may not have known the name of Jesus, but their faith in the true God was faith in Jesus all along.
 
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Bob S

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HARK! said:
Paul didn't break YHWH's covenant with Israel, even after YHWH renewed that covenant through Yahshua.
...renewed... :oldthumbsup:
Paul taught that all men are freed from the Sinai covenant. When we get to Heaven we have to ask him why he attended some of the rituals from the defunct old covenant. The covenant Jesus introduced is not the old one warmed over, it is new and has better promises. The Sinai covenant promised Israel the land of milk and honey, but not eternal life. Jesus covenant with all mankind promises the new Earth and eternal life to those who believe and love others as He loves us. Jesus doesn't ask us to go through ritual hoops, He asks us to Love.
 
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daq

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HARK! said:
Paul didn't break YHWH's covenant with Israel, even after YHWH renewed that covenant through Yahshua.
Paul taught that all men are freed from the Sinai covenant. When we get to Heaven we have to ask him why he attended some of the rituals from the defunct old covenant. The covenant Jesus introduced is not the old one warmed over, it is new and has better promises. The Sinai covenant promised Israel the land of milk and honey, but not eternal life. Jesus covenant with all mankind promises the new Earth and eternal life to those who believe and love others as He loves us. Jesus doesn't ask us to go through ritual hoops, He asks us to Love.

The Master never gave me any reason to reject or fear the Father's holy Word. In fact he says this about Torah and Prophets:

Matthew 7:12 HNV
12 Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the Torah and the Prophets.

So it boggles the mind why so many fear God's Word and seek to abolish what even Paul says is spiritual, (Romans 7:14a). You cannot abolish what is spiritual except from your own heart and mind. Moreover there is no reason to even seek to do so if indeed Messiah has taken the curse upon himself and removed it.

If indeed there is now no condemnation to those in Messiah, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit: then it is only those who do not understand the Torah who fear, because they walk according to the flesh and yet know that it cannot be properly observed according to the flesh, ("the works of the law"). The veil over the heart, mind, and eyes is only removed in the understanding of the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts: which is what it means to be "in Christ" or "in Messiah".
 
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Bob S

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The Master never gave me any reason to reject or fear the Father's holy Word. In fact he says this about Torah and Prophets:

Matthew 7:12 HNV
12 Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the Torah and the Prophets.

So it boggles the mind why so many fear God's Word and seek to abolish what even Paul says is spiritual, (Romans 7:14a). You cannot abolish what is spiritual except from your own heart and mind. Moreover there is no reason to even seek to do so if indeed Messiah has taken the curse upon himself and removed it.

If indeed there is now no condemnation to those in Messiah, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit: then it is only those who do not understand the Torah who fear, because they walk according to the flesh and yet know that it cannot be properly observed according to the flesh, ("the works of the law"). The veil over the heart, mind, and eyes is only removed in the understanding of the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts: which is what it means to be "in Christ" or "in Messiah".
Likewise it boggles my mind that some would burden themselves with rituals that were given only to one nation and ended when the new covenant was ratified at Calvary. It boggles my mind how one can operate with one foot in the past conditional covenant and one in the new everlasting covenant not like the past conditional covenant given only to Israel.

The Sinai covenant was not about salvation, it was about how the Israelites were to live and prosper in the land that was given them. The new and better covenant ratified by Jesus Blood and is an eternal covenant is about our eternal home. It is about salvation.
 
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HARK!

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Likewise it boggles my mind that some would burden themselves with rituals that were given only to one nation and ended when the new covenant was ratified at Calvary.

I won't debate as to when the renewed covenant was ratified; as it is not the subject of this thread; but do you really believe that YHWH's eternal Torah ended at Calvary?

Yahshua disagrees; and there is no one's opinion, who walked this earth in the flesh, who's opinion trumps his.
 
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