The Apostle Paul vs Popular Eschatalogical Doctrines/Positions

Jamdoc

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Come on. You need to stop this ignorance and pay attention to what Amils actually believe. Do you think it helps your cause to misrepresent what we believe? It definitely does not. You said this:

We believe that the resurrection of Christ happened 3 days after the cross and that we all spiritually have part in His resurrection. But, this happens over time. I didn't spiritually have part in His resurrection at the cross. We spiritually have part in His resurrection when we become spiritually saved. To say that many amils believe that the resurrection of all the saints happened at the cross is simply not true.

No, in Eph 2:4-6 Paul is talking about something that is true now. We have been made spiritually alive in Christ after previously being spiritually dead in sins. We are spiritually saved now. We have been spiritually raised up together and have been made to spiritually sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus now. He was talking about a current reality throughout that passage.

Did someone say that Satan's defeat has already been played out (as if Rev 20:10 already happened or something)? I truly have no idea of why you're saying this to me as if I didn't know this. It's quite clear to me that you don't have a good understanding of what Amils believe and that's why you're constantly misrepresenting what we believe.

You're not getting it. Your Premil bias is getting in the way of the reality of what Christ did to Satan long ago. Because Christ is there at the right hand of the Father in heaven, there is no place there for Satan anymore. You say he can accuse but his accusations are pointless? No, he can't accuse us of anything because our sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ. Why would God even allow him to accuse us, knowing that it would be pointless? That makes no sense. No, he has no access to heaven anymore because he can't accuse us and there can't be a place for both Him and Christ there. It is because Christ defeated him that he can't be in heaven any longer.

Romans 8:34 has Christ actively interceding for us.
Interceding against WHAT then if no accusations are taking place?

Are you a Calvinist? Do you think these people never have any choice in the matter of what they believe? If so, then how do any Muslims or people in other religions ever convert to Christianity? With the way you're looking at it, it would be impossible for any of them to ever convert to Christianity.

Do you think these people who you think can't help but reject the gospel will have an excuse on judgment day? Will they be able to tell Jesus: "Well, we were pre-hardened and pre-disposed to believing in Islam, so we couldn't believe in You. I'm sure You understand and will grant us entrance to the new heavens and new earth rather than cast us into the lake of fire.". Is this a scenario that you would see as viable on judgment day?

Why does God command all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) if (supposedly) not all people everywhere can repent?

That is also a tension, and I can't firmly place myself within a Calvinist or Arminian camp. To be honest, I'm not sure Paul could either. Paul wrote Romans 9, which is one of the strongest arguments for Calvinism, but Paul also wrote Romans 10, which is one of the strongest arguments for Free Will and agency in our salvation.

But what Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 4:4 was that the god of this world, so.. active, currently deceiving Satan, has blinded (that is, past tense, it already happened) them.
This is not some neutral stance where they get introduced to the Gospel, reject it, and then Satan blinds them, because that also doesn't work, I rejected the Gospel the first time I heard it (although to be fair, I don't think it was really the Gospel but more of a Catholic works based salvation "gospel"), and many others reject it multiple times and some eventually come to faith, some do not, Paul persecuted Christians, oh he knew their beliefs, so he'd heard the Gospel, but he actively persecuted against it, so he rejected it, until the encounter on the road to Damascus. So rejecting the gospel does not lead to being blinded by Satan.. you were already blinded before you believed.

That's where the idea of Satan currently being bound falls flat in Paul's teachings. That Satan has already blinded people to the Gospel, and here that tension comes in, where is it a choice of the person to believe when they hear, or God granting repentance to them to be able to believe. Again I can't place myself firmly in either camp, and it's the writings of Paul that actually make it hardest to decide one way or the other.

I brought up 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:6 which doesn't say anything about Satan. Why don't you actually address that passage and what I said about it instead of going on a tangent? You're coming across here that you don't want to deal with the points I made there. Is that true? If not, then please address that passage and what I said about it. How do you interpret it?

Because the Amillennial doctrine that I'm arguing that Paul is against, is Satan being bound and not deceiving the nations. Paul teaches a dangerous Satan, Amillennialism teaches a toothless Satan (just watch sg whenever he goes into his doxology as defense posture).

1 Thessalonians 4 is irrelevant to that doctrine.
 
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Jamdoc

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You seem to have a habit of avoiding answering straightforward questions with straightforward answers. Why is that?

Isn't it rather convenient for you to say that the last days refers to a lot of things? Way to take a stand there on your beliefs. Do you expect to be taken seriously with answers like this? Do you not see that you can make scripture say anything you want it to with this kind of approach?

Never mind for now what time period the last days represents. When does it end? When is the last of the last days as it relates to the second coming of Christ? Can you answer that? I can.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Peter makes it clear that in the last days scoffers would come and scoff at the idea of the second coming of Christ and ask mockingly "Where is the promise of His coming?". This shows that the last days are the days that lead up to the second coming of Christ. So, the last day then would be the day Christ returns. With this in mind, should that not tell us something about Isaiah 2:2-4, which speaks of the last days? Of course it should! But, you don't want to acknowledge that. Hmmm...I wonder why.

The same way you duck around the fact that your interpretation doesn't line up with reality.

Do you want to seriously claim that nations don't practice war against each other?

If you want to profess that we currently live in Isaiah 2, while NATO and Russia are currently squaring off with each other?

You can't just throw the word "spiritual" around and expect that to be your defense
you can't just lay into doxology and expect that to be your defense

The disconnect with reality just does not work.
 
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DavidPT

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Try making arguments against what Amils actually believe instead of trying to force Amils to agree with the Premil understanding of Satan's binding.


If you were arguing with someone who disagrees that Jesus is God, for example, you would have us believe that you would be making arguments against what they believe without it involving you trying to force them to agree with your understanding of why Jesus is God? Sometimes trying to force someone to do something is not always a bad thing. But I don't know if I would use the term 'forcing' to describe that to begin with. Maybe persuade.
 
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DavidPT

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The same way you duck around the fact that your interpretation doesn't line up with reality.

Do you want to seriously claim that nations don't practice war against each other?

If you want to profess that we currently live in Isaiah 2, while NATO and Russia are currently squaring off with each other?

You can't just throw the word "spiritual" around and expect that to be your defense
you can't just lay into doxology and expect that to be your defense

The disconnect with reality just does not work.

All one needs to do is compare the following two Scriptures side by side then ask themselves, can both be literally true at the same time? And if they are supposed to be literally true at the same time, who does one propose that this makes a false prophet, Isaiah or Jesus, since they are both prophets and obviously contradicting each other here if what I have underlined in both passages below is supposed to be literally true at the same time?

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
 
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Jamdoc

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All one needs to do is compare the following two Scriptures side by side then ask themselves, can both be literally true at the same time? And if they are supposed to be literally true at the same time, who does one propose that this makes a false prophet, Isaiah or Jesus, since they are both prophets and obviously contradicting each other here if what I have underlined in both passages below is supposed to be literally true at the same time?

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Both are true, I just don't think they're both true at the same time. first comes what Jesus says.. afterward what Isaiah said. That's Premillennial though.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Romans 8:34 has Christ actively interceding for us.
Interceding against WHAT then if no accusations are taking place?



That is also a tension, and I can't firmly place myself within a Calvinist or Arminian camp. To be honest, I'm not sure Paul could either. Paul wrote Romans 9, which is one of the strongest arguments for Calvinism, but Paul also wrote Romans 10, which is one of the strongest arguments for Free Will and agency in our salvation.

But what Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 4:4 was that the god of this world, so.. active, currently deceiving Satan, has blinded (that is, past tense, it already happened) them.
This is not some neutral stance where they get introduced to the Gospel, reject it, and then Satan blinds them, because that also doesn't work, I rejected the Gospel the first time I heard it (although to be fair, I don't think it was really the Gospel but more of a Catholic works based salvation "gospel"), and many others reject it multiple times and some eventually come to faith, some do not, Paul persecuted Christians, oh he knew their beliefs, so he'd heard the Gospel, but he actively persecuted against it, so he rejected it, until the encounter on the road to Damascus. So rejecting the gospel does not lead to being blinded by Satan.. you were already blinded before you believed.

That's where the idea of Satan currently being bound falls flat in Paul's teachings. That Satan has already blinded people to the Gospel, and here that tension comes in, where is it a choice of the person to believe when they hear, or God granting repentance to them to be able to believe. Again I can't place myself firmly in either camp, and it's the writings of Paul that actually make it hardest to decide one way or the other.



Because the Amillennial doctrine that I'm arguing that Paul is against, is Satan being bound and not deceiving the nations. Paul teaches a dangerous Satan, Amillennialism teaches a toothless Satan (just watch sg whenever he goes into his doxology as defense posture).

1 Thessalonians 4 is irrelevant to that doctrine.

Many misunderstand the nature of Satan’s binding. They view this in a physical sense when they should be interpreting it spiritually. Most people have no difficulty with recognising that the wicked generally are bound in sin or the chains of sin. They easily accept the figurative concept of this. Of course, we know the ungodly aren't necessarily imprisoned in real chains (although some are). This restraint does not render the rebellious human inoperative – quite the opposite. However, they are still spiritually bound. The same applies to Satan's minions. They are spiritual curtailed or bound from the cross in chains. That does not negate their movement. They are bound in order that they cannot prevent the light shining upon the Gentiles and consequently liberating them from their chains. This is the focus of the millennium, the binding of Satan in order to facilitate the enlightenment of the nations. This is happening now through the great spread of the Gospel (good news) to the Gentiles.

As I keep saying, and what many Premils miss, binding in Scripture did not denote immobility. Many Premils quote 1 Peter 5:8, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” yet, they fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer posses. The very next verse (1 Peter 5:9 affirms, whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We are part of a spiritual resistance movement against him.

Why do Premils never quote this whole passage when challenging Amillennialists who are highlighting the sovereign power and strength of Jesus.

While Satan resists the Church throughout the nations, the Church throughout the nations now resists Satan. Everything the devil says, we resist; everything the devil does, we resist. Through the work of the Cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power and capability to curtail and damage the devil’s strong power and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foe

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

Some people speak so highly of the devil's power they render Christ and His body – the Church – as the impotent party in the conflict between good and evil and Satan and his minions as the dominant party. The truth is: every true blood-bought child of the Lord has “overcome” the devil, and is overcoming the devil as they spread the good news of the kingdom to a deluded world. For the obedient believer standing upon the promises of God and using it to confront Satan, Scripture says in 1 John 2:13 & 14, ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

The people of God here are expressly said to have “overcome the wicked one.” They have an inner strength that enables them to overcome Satan; that strength is Jesus. Moreover, that revelation of Christ comes through the fact that “the word of God abideth in” them. 1 John 5:4-5 further states, “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

The whole tenure of this passage indicates conflict – conflict with a foe that is defeated. This passage is saturated in victory. The negativity surrounding the Premillennial view of the conflict between light and darkness is unfortunate.

1 John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Satan is a little devil in regard to our big God.

So if it is not a physical battle with physical weapons it is a spiritual battle with spiritual weapons. 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 says,For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.”

Amils don't deny that the kingdom will arrive in all its fullness and final glory at Christ's Coming and we will reign eternally on the regenerated earth, but we reign now "in life" (Romans 5:17) as "kings and priests" (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6) advancing the battle for truth in enemy territory and reigning in spiritual authority over the kingdom of darkness. Our battle is not against "flesh and blood" (Ephesians 6:12) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Many Premils mix up the current spiritual kingship that has been bestowed upon the elect of God and which sees the Church invade Satan's spiritual domain, to that of our glorious eternal reign that occurs at the Second Advent. The Church's present battles are no longer physical (as in the Old Testament era), but rather spiritual today. To suggest that our present kingship is devoid of current power and spiritual authority, which sees us reign “in Christ,” is preposterous, and is probably only espoused to prop up the Premil understanding of Revelation 20. We ARE kings now, we do reign now "in life." However, when Christ comes we enter into the glory and full realisation of eternal kingly position.

As ambassadors of another nation (a more powerful heavenly nation), we have been given authority over the devices of enemy. We can defeat in our lives and through the spread of the Gospel. Revelation 12:11 says, “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside. The overcoming Church now sits in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:37-39, declares, we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Wherever the Church would advance, the work of Satan would be bound!!!
 
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sovereigngrace

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All one needs to do is compare the following two Scriptures side by side then ask themselves, can both be literally true at the same time? And if they are supposed to be literally true at the same time, who does one propose that this makes a false prophet, Isaiah or Jesus, since they are both prophets and obviously contradicting each other here if what I have underlined in both passages below is supposed to be literally true at the same time?

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Because you fail to see that Isaiah 2:4 is talking about the spiritual conditions that exist on the mountain of the Lord, where the redeemed reside and where the kingdom of God manifests itself and Matthew 24:6 is talking about the wickedness of this world. This reminds us of that Premillennialists have a habit of literalizing the spiritual passages and spiritualizing the literal passages.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Both are true, I just don't think they're both true at the same time. first comes what Jesus says.. afterward what Isaiah said. That's Premillennial though.

When do you believe "the last days" began, when do you believe that they are going to finish? When is the last day and what happens there?
 
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Jamdoc

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Many misunderstand the nature of Satan’s binding. They view this in a physical sense when they should be interpreting it spiritually. Most people have no difficulty with recognising that the wicked generally are bound in sin or the chains of sin. They easily accept the figurative concept of this. Of course, we know the ungodly aren't necessarily imprisoned in real chains (although some are). This restraint does not render the rebellious human inoperative – quite the opposite. However, they are still spiritually bound. The same applies to Satan's minions. They are spiritual curtailed or bound from the cross in chains. That does not negate their movement. They are bound in order that they cannot prevent the light shining upon the Gentiles and consequently liberating them from their chains. This is the focus of the millennium, the binding of Satan in order to facilitate the enlightenment of the nations. This is happening now through the great spread of the Gospel (good news) to the Gentiles.

As I keep saying, and what many Premils miss, binding in Scripture did not denote immobility. Many Premils quote 1 Peter 5:8, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” yet, they fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer posses. The very next verse (1 Peter 5:9 affirms, whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We are part of a spiritual resistance movement against him.

Why do Premils never quote this whole passage when challenging Amillennialists who are highlighting the sovereign power and strength of Jesus.

While Satan resists the Church throughout the nations, the Church throughout the nations now resists Satan. Everything the devil says, we resist; everything the devil does, we resist. Through the work of the Cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power and capability to curtail and damage the devil’s strong power and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foe

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

Some people speak so highly of the devil's power they render Christ and His body – the Church – as the impotent party in the conflict between good and evil and Satan and his minions as the dominant party. The truth is: every true blood-bought child of the Lord has “overcome” the devil, and is overcoming the devil as they spread the good news of the kingdom to a deluded world. For the obedient believer standing upon the promises of God and using it to confront Satan, Scripture says in 1 John 2:13 & 14, ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

The people of God here are expressly said to have “overcome the wicked one.” They have an inner strength that enables them to overcome Satan; that strength is Jesus. Moreover, that revelation of Christ comes through the fact that “the word of God abideth in” them. 1 John 5:4-5 further states, “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

The whole tenure of this passage indicates conflict – conflict with a foe that is defeated. This passage is saturated in victory. The negativity surrounding the Premillennial view of the conflict between light and darkness is unfortunate.

1 John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Satan is a little devil in regard to our big God.

So if it is not a physical battle with physical weapons it is a spiritual battle with spiritual weapons. 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 says,For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.”

Amils don't deny that the kingdom will arrive in all its fullness and final glory at Christ's Coming and we will reign eternally on the regenerated earth, but we reign now "in life" (Romans 5:17) as "kings and priests" (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6) advancing the battle for truth in enemy territory and reigning in spiritual authority over the kingdom of darkness. Our battle is not against "flesh and blood" (Ephesians 6:12) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Many Premils mix up the current spiritual kingship that has been bestowed upon the elect of God and which sees the Church invade Satan's spiritual domain, to that of our glorious eternal reign that occurs at the Second Advent. The Church's present battles are no longer physical (as in the Old Testament era), but rather spiritual today. To suggest that our present kingship is devoid of current power and spiritual authority, which sees us reign “in Christ,” is preposterous, and is probably only espoused to prop up the Premil understanding of Revelation 20. We ARE kings now, we do reign now "in life." However, when Christ comes we enter into the glory and full realisation of eternal kingly position.

As ambassadors of another nation (a more powerful heavenly nation), we have been given authority over the devices of enemy. We can defeat in our lives and through the spread of the Gospel. Revelation 12:11 says, “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside. The overcoming Church now sits in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:37-39, declares, we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Wherever the Church would advance, the work of Satan would be bound!!!

but the 2 Corinthians 4:4 that I'm talking about, Paul actively has Satan preventing the light of the Gospel from being seen. It is an active prevention of the Gospel spreading in those people.
That's the nature where the conflict between a bound Satan, which you and others would declare CANNOT stop the spread of the gospel, vs what Paul taught, that Satan actually spiritually blinds people to being able to receive the Gospel. These cannot be simultaneously true.

Now if you were to ignore 2 Corinthians 4:4, maybe you'd have a leg to stand on that Satan can be in your interpretation somehow partially bound, unable to stop the spread of the gospel but still working in the sons of disobedience....
the problem is 2 Corinthians 4:4 Paul teaches that Satan can actually prevent someone from receiving the Gospel.
That's where any said binding fails.

and let's go back to that first question I had.
in Romans 8:34, what is Christ making intercession for, if we can no longer be accused?
 
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DavidPT

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When do you believe "the last days" began, when do you believe that they are going to finish? When is the last day and what happens there?


Both Isaiah 2 and Ezekiel 38 mention last days. How would you answer those same questions when using Ezekiel 38-39, not Isaiah 2 instead, to do so? Those last days have to have a beginning and a last day as well, don't you think?
 
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Jamdoc

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When do you believe "the last days" began, when do you believe that they are going to finish? When is the last day and what happens there?
Beginning: First coming,
End: end of the Millennial Kingdom.

But that's my eschatology.

I am trying to focus on Paul's.
Paul I don't think had a defined stance on a concept that wouldn't be introduced explicitly for a few decades after his death.

but if you end the last days at the second coming, you have a problem of Isaiah 2 and Matthew 24 as DavidPT points out.
They are contradictory if supposed to happen at the same time.
 
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sovereigngrace

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but the 2 Corinthians 4:4 that I'm talking about, Paul actively has Satan preventing the light of the Gospel from being seen. It is an active prevention of the Gospel spreading in those people.
That's the nature where the conflict between a bound Satan, which you and others would declare CANNOT stop the spread of the gospel, vs what Paul taught, that Satan actually spiritually blinds people to being able to receive the Gospel. These cannot be simultaneously true.

Now if you were to ignore 2 Corinthians 4:4, maybe you'd have a leg to stand on that Satan can be in your interpretation somehow partially bound, unable to stop the spread of the gospel but still working in the sons of disobedience....
the problem is 2 Corinthians 4:4 Paul teaches that Satan can actually prevent someone from receiving the Gospel.
That's where any said binding fails.

and let's go back to that first question I had.
in Romans 8:34, what is Christ making intercession for, if we can no longer be accused?

I think you need to move into the NT and have a look outside your window to see that the Gentiles are no longer ignorant. The Gospel has gone out the nations as Christ predicted during this new covenant period, corresponding with the parallel binding of Satan for his territory to be overrun with the truth. The millennium was ushered in by Christ’s resurrection (the first resurrection). It saw the Gospel go out to the Gentiles (as predicted). Before the resurrection the Gospel was restricted to one lone small nation Israel. The Gospel has liberated countless millions of Gentiles over this past 2,000 years as Satan's territory has been invaded with the truth. Village after village, town after town, city after city, nation after nation globally has encountered the light. Those that have eyes to see will see. Anyway, your opinion of Revelation 20 is non-corroborative. Nowhere else in Scripture says what you are forcing on Revelation 20.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Beginning: First coming,
End: end of the Millennial Kingdom.

But that's my eschatology.

I am trying to focus on Paul's.
Paul I don't think had a defined stance on a concept that wouldn't be introduced explicitly for a few decades after his death.

but if you end the last days at the second coming, you have a problem of Isaiah 2 and Matthew 24 as DavidPT points out.
They are contradictory if supposed to happen at the same time.

When is the last day and what happens there?
 
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sovereigngrace

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but if you end the last days at the second coming, you have a problem of Isaiah 2 and Matthew 24 as DavidPT points out.
They are contradictory if supposed to happen at the same time.

Not so! Only if you're a bias Premillennialist. You fail to see that Isaiah 2:4 is talking about the spiritual conditions that exist on the mountain of the Lord, where the redeemed reside and where the kingdom of God manifests itself and Matthew 24:6 is talking about the wickedness of this world. This reminds us of that Premillennialists have a habit of literalizing the spiritual passages and spiritualizing the literal passages.
 
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Jamdoc

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I think you need to move into the NT and have a look outside your window to see that the Gentiles are no longer ignorant. The Gospel has gone out the nations as Christ predicted during this new covenant period, corresponding with the parallel binding of Satan for his territory to be overrun with the truth. The millennium was ushered in by Christ’s resurrection (the first resurrection). It saw the Gospel go out to the Gentiles (as predicted). Before the resurrection the Gospel was restricted to one lone small nation Israel. The Gospel has liberated countless millions of Gentiles over this past 2,000 years as Satan's territory has been invaded with the truth. Village after village, town after town, city after city, nation after nation globally has encountered the light. Those that have eyes to see will see. Anyway, your opinion of Revelation 20 is non-corroborative. Nowhere else in Scripture says what you are forcing on Revelation 20.

2 Corinthians and Romans are both NT.
and you dodged the question.
 
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DavidPT

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but the 2 Corinthians 4:4 that I'm talking about, Paul actively has Satan preventing the light of the Gospel from being seen. It is an active prevention of the Gospel spreading in those people.
That's the nature where the conflict between a bound Satan, which you and others would declare CANNOT stop the spread of the gospel, vs what Paul taught, that Satan actually spiritually blinds people to being able to receive the Gospel. These cannot be simultaneously true.

Now if you were to ignore 2 Corinthians 4:4, maybe you'd have a leg to stand on that Satan can be in your interpretation somehow partially bound, unable to stop the spread of the gospel but still working in the sons of disobedience....
the problem is 2 Corinthians 4:4 Paul teaches that Satan can actually prevent someone from receiving the Gospel.
That's where any said binding fails.

To add to all of that though you might or might not fully agree with me, as to that passage in particular, most ignore the fact as to what verse 3 states and it's relevance to what is then stated in the next verse---But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


When these ppl, or anyone for that matter, are initially born they have no belief or disbelief about anything one way or the other yet. How do they eventually end up believing not to begin with if it has zero to do with the god of this world blinding their mind? That's like asking which comes first? The chicken or the egg? If they already believed not before the god of this world blinded their minds, as SJ seems to believe, what caused them to believe not to begin with? When the Jews that already believed in the God of Abraham, but chose to disbelieve in the Son of God, how did they manage to do that without the god of this world blinding their mind?

Maybe it's just me but I don't see it making much sense that one first believes not then the god of this world comes to blind their mind.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Both Isaiah 2 and Ezekiel 38 mention last days. How would you answer those same questions when using Ezekiel 38-39, not Isaiah 2 instead, to do so? Those last days have to have a beginning and a last day as well, don't you think?

Please read what I write. Isaiah 2:4 is talking about the spiritual conditions that exist on the mountain of the Lord, where the redeemed reside and where the kingdom of God manifests itself and Matthew 24:6 is talking about the wickedness of this world. When you have no answer to a rebuttal you introduced Ezekiel 38-39 to divert the conversation.
 
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Jamdoc

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When is the last day and what happens there?

End of the Millennial Kingdom, when Satan gets released a,d then fire comes from heaven and destroys all of the people surrounding the camps of the saints.
That's the only time within Revelation where there's a catastrophic jump from this earth to a new heavens and new earth.
Everywhere else.. its a transfer of power from the kingdoms of this world to the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.
A transfer of power that does not mention anything about remaking creation in the process. Just a transfer of power that as far as we know, takes place on this earth we currently live on.

But this is Revelation.
not Paul.
 
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2 Corinthians and Romans are both NT.
and you dodged the question.

If you would simply take your Premillennial glasses off for a moment you might actually understand what the Scriptures are saying here.Rev 20 is not talking about the individual deception but the collective blindness that darkened the Gentiles before Christ. Before the cross the Gentiles were ignorant unto the truth. They were deceived. They were spiritual blind walking in darkness. Through the cross-work Satan cannot blind people to the truth anymore.

With the global spread of Gospel truth, the Gentiles have been given the opportunity to enter into a covenant relationship on equal terms as Israelites had under in the old covenant. Satan cannot stop Gentiles coming to Christ. He doesn’t have that power any more.

The only power Satan possesses is the ability to tell a lie and people believe that. His blanket deception over all nations has gone.
 
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