Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

That's not what the text says. The text does not say that the living stand before God at the GWT. It says that the dead stand before the GWT:

12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Note: if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire).

13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

It does not say the (resurrected) living. It says the dead.

The dead.

The dead.

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LOL. The living do not need resurrected when Jesus comes. They will be changed and caught up. The dead are resurrected at the second coming, not one thousand years later.

What is more, this is not just talking about just the wicked dead. That is a Premil invention. They impose that upon the sacred text. It is talking expressly about "the dead." Scripture shows the resurrection and judgment to involved all the dead at the one time.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and THE DEAD were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up THE DEAD which were in it; and death and hell delivered up THE DEAD which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Where does it say this is just the unsaved? Nowhere! This is a general judgment when Jesus comes! It doesn't say they are only the unsaved dead anywhere. It says "the dead" were "judged."

The great white throne arrives at the one and only coming of Christ, which sees the removal of the current corrupt heavens and earth. Scripture proves that the second coming is all-consummating. It is the end. This ushers in the arrival of the new heavens and new earth. This also instigates the time when the “dead” are raised (saved and lost) to face their final general judgment. This all-inclusive number is “judged every man according to their works.” This corresponds with several other Scripture that locates the raising/judging of the dead to the second coming. This is a general judgment when Jesus comes!

There's nowhere in the text that intimates that we are looking only at the unsaved dead here. Premillennialists force that upon the text. If this was just a company of wicked Christ-rejectors (according to Premil), why would the stipulation even be added: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”? It doesn't make sense!

The reality is, this passage is couched in general resurrection terminology.

Revelation 11:15-18 parallels: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” This is the last trump, which is after the thousand years. It the time when the righteous expressly receive their “reward” and when Christ will “destroy” the wicked. For those that refuse to bow the knee to Christ it will be a time of “wrath.” We see here that there are two parties standing before the same throne receiving two diverse sentences.

How many times will the dead be judged? Once! It does not say men are appointed to die once and then two judgments. No, it says “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

Isaiah also speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

There is such an obvious finality to this whole reading that no one could surely argue with any credence that it is speaking of anything other than the end of the world. Moreover, this climactic event also sees the complete destruction of that great enemy of the kingdom of God – that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked is once and for all destroyed. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

As we have seen in the various judgment passages we have already looked at, Christ is shown here to raise all men at His coming and exercise final and eternal judgment upon all. Isaiah commences this general resurrection discourse here by stating “dead men shall live,” the reason being, because “the earth shall cast out the dead” (speaking about the general resurrection of the dead). Regardless of how carefully The Beginner may try to rewrite this passage, there is no stipulation that we are looking at the righteous alone in the text - quite the opposite. We are looking at the raising of all the dead at Christ's coming. Isaiah testifies 1st of all of his own personal participation in that great final all-consummating event as a believer and as an Old Testament saint. He rejoices in anticipation of that day, as should every single believer that looks for resurrection / judgment day, declaring “Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs.” The reason for the believer’s joy is that they experience glorification as they discard mortality and take on immortality, and they receive God’s eternal reward on this great final day.

The unsaved are different, even though they will be raised at the same time on this day, it is for the purpose of judgment and eternal punishment. This is not a day of joy for them. This is not a day of reward. We learn: “For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.” When are the wicked punished? When “the LORD cometh out of his place” (of course talking about heaven). This is significantly the same time that that great enemy of the kingdom of God that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked are once and for all destroyed. The Hebrew word used here for slain is harag meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

Job testified in Job 14:12-14, “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.”

Job starts off describing an oft-repeated truth in Scripture that "man" is going to be resurrected in the future. He doesn't stipulate just righteous man, as Premil would want it to say, but "man." He enlarges on this, asking a rhetorical question, "If a man die, shall he live again?" Of course, the answer is obvious: Yes, all men!

Job is (by his own confession) including himself in the resurrection in view. He clearly identifies the great hope of the resurrection of the dead (which expressly here includes himself – an Old Testament saint) and places it at the time when the heavens (and therefore the current earth) pass away and consequently witness the appearance of the New Jerusalem at the last day. The word translated “till” here is the Hebrew word ad that is consistently interpreted “unto” or “even unto” elsewhere throughout the Old Testament. Therefore, we can interpret this passage as saying: “So man lieth down, and riseth not: even unto the heavens be no more.” This shows that the resurrection of the dead occurs at the end of the world at a time after the end of the millennium, not before.

Job prophesied that the Lord would stand on this earth at the end of the age. Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.”

The same resurrection expectation is alluded to in both Job 14:12-14 and Job 19:25-27. That is why Job prophesied that the Lord would stand on this earth at the end of the age. There is no other earth than this present one that Job would have been familiar with. Job is looking forward to the day that he will be devoid of corruption and will stand upon a new glorified earth resplendent in his new glorified body. The fact he says “the earth” tells us that this current earth will survive albeit in a regenerated earth fitted for glorified saints.

Job outlines a great mystery, that whilst worms in the grave would eat the body that he then possessed, he would still see the Lord again in the flesh at the latter day. Evidently, as the New Testament explains it, he would be clothed with a new body – an incorruptible one. The writer confirms when this will happen: “he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.” Job would rise at “the last day” with all the dead in Christ. This fits in with many other passages talking about “the last day” (singular).

sovereigngrace said:

The dead are raised before the GWT. Read it. That is the general resurrection before the second coming.

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You mean verse 5? One is to believe that those in verse 4 and 6 are also the rest of the dead in verse 5? If someone had 12 donuts and ate 6 of them for breakfast then saved the other 6 for a later time, thus the rest of the donuts, that when they eat these other 6 later they are also eating the previous 6 yet again?

Once the first 6 donuts are eaten, they are no longer of the rest of the donuts that are reserved for later.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

The dead. The dead. The dead.

Where in the above verses does it say the dead will be resurrected first? You're reading it into the text each and every time, because that's your starting point - that all humans will be resurrected from the dead in Christ, even those who were never in Christ. never in the ark:

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and THE DEAD were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up THE DEAD which were in it; and death and hell delivered up THE DEAD which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Isaiah also speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise.

Where does it say it's speaking of those who were never in Christ, never in the ark?

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It seems like you have a real issue with the text here. You are reacting to it, not me. I am simply quoting it verbatim! This is talking expressly about "the dead." You may not like that but it is what Scripture teaches.

The end of the millennium/Satan's little season is the second coming. This is corroborated by multiple Scripture, some of these you are skipped around as if they do not exist. Premil on the other hand enjoys zero corroboration on this matter. If I am wrong: prove it! The conclusion of your reasoning is: the dead are judged twice, which is preposterous.

DavidPT said:

You mean verse 5? One is to believe that those in verse 4 and 6 are also the rest of the dead in verse 5? If someone had 12 donuts and ate 6 of them for breakfast then saved the other 6 for a later time, thus the rest of the donuts, that when they eat these other 6 later they are also eating the previous 6 yet again?

Once the first 6 donuts are eaten, they are no longer of the rest of the donuts that are reserved for later.

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No. Read #362. You are quoting the first resurrection, which is Christ. I know you reject that. But most of us look upon that as a fundamental of our faith. The Bible says: Jesus is the “the first resurrection” (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5) and “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20).

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

That's not what the text says. The text does not say that the living stand before God at the GWT. It says that the dead stand before the GWT:

12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Note: if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire).

13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

It does not say the (resurrected) living. It says the dead.

The dead.

The dead.

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I noticed that myself that it only says the dead. One is to believe that when one puts on bodily immortality at the last trump, which obviously precedes the GWTJ no matter how you look at it, these are still being called the dead? I wonder if Christ was still being called the dead by any authors in the NT once He bodily rose and is now alive for forever? And this is not even taking into account the raptured church. How do they end up among the dead in order to be standing in line at the GWTJ when they never die to begin with, then they too put on the same changes that the dead do during the last trump in the twinkling of an eye?

sovereigngrace said:

The conclusion of your reasoning is: the dead are judged twice, which is preposterous.

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It all depends on how many judgments there are involving the dead and if they take place during the same event or a different event at a different time. That's not the same as the same dead being judged twice but at different times.

DavidPT said:

It all depends on how many judgments there are involving the dead and if they take place during the same event or a different event at a different time. That's not the same as the same dead being judged twice but at different times.

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The Bible only talks about "the judgment," never "the judgments." That is a Premil innovation. The Bible only talks about "the resurrection," never "the resurrections." That is a Premil innovation.

What totally defeats your paradigm is the fact that the inspired text talks (without qualification) about "the dead." Premils have to add to the text to make it either "the righteous dead" or "the wicked dead" according to what fits their bias theology at any given time. This is horrible hermeneutics. Amils on the other hand let the Scripture speaks for itself: "the dead" being "the dead." This is another example that exposes the Premil boost about being literalists. As we have discovered over the years, the opposite is the truth. If any text forbids Premil it is swiftly dismissed or spiritualized away. 2 Peter is a recent case-in-point.

The texts I have presented correlate and corroborate each other. They describe the same event. Premils are always seeing double, because their teachers have taught them there are 2 resurrections and 2 judgments, even though they have no Scripture to support that.

Let me remind you: "the time of the dead, that they should be judge" occurs at the last trumpet (Revelation 11:15-18). This is the same scene as Revelation 20:11-15: "I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God," the time when "the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon” (Isaiah 26:19-27:1). This happens when the NHNE arrives (Job 14:12-14), again negating Premil.

DavidPT said:

I noticed that myself that it only says the dead. One is to believe that when one puts on bodily immortality at the last trump, which obviously precedes the GWTJ no matter how you look at it, these are still being called the dead? I wonder if Christ was still being called the dead by any authors in the NT once He bodily rose and is now alive for forever? And this is not even taking into account the raptured church. How do they end up among the dead in order to be standing in line at the GWTJ when they never die to begin with, then they too put on the same changes that the dead do during the last trump in the twinkling of an eye?

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Same event! It disproves your chronological approach to Revelation 19-20, and your wrong location of the NHNE at the start of the millennium, instead of after. This is terrible hermeneutics.

DavidPT said:

That was bound to happen regardless, don't you think? Or do you think had not satan been bound first this coming to Christ over the past 2000 years would have never happened on a grand scale like this? Meaning, satan is so powerful, unless he is bound first he is powerful enough to stop the spreading of the gospel to the nations. When I would think instead, the gospel spreads throughout the nations regardless what satan and his minions might try to do to prevent that from happening. This scenario makes God the more powerful one. Your scenario makes God the less powerful one, because had not satan been bound first, satan would have succeeded in preventing the gospel spreading to all the nations, thus not as many coming to Christ in the end of it all.

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Nonsense
We were once darkness but now we are light. Eph 5
Prince of darkness has lost his grip on those who repent and come to the light making God the stronger one obviously.


Colossians 1:13
2 Corinthians 4:6
John 3:19
Acts 26:18


satan is clearly bound as the Lord is plundering his goods.

20 But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are secure. 22 But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, that man takes away his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder. 23 The one who is not with Me is against Me; and the one who does not gather with Me scatters.

sovereigngrace said:

and your wrong location of the NHNE at the start of the millennium, instead of after. This is terrible hermeneutics.

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Terrible hermeneutics or not, clearly the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming. That is a problem for Amils if Premil is the correct position and that Amil isn't. Assuming this scenario, are Amils then going to start arguing that the NHNE don't begin with the 2nd coming after all?

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


This passage is involving the NHNE. Verse 25---and dust shall be the serpent's meat---is meaning during this same period. This is obviously reminding us of the following.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Obviously---and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life---is meaning up until he is cast into the LOF. He wouldn't still be doing that once he is cast into the LOF, and that Isaiah 65:25 has him still doing that when the wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock.

DavidPT said:

Terrible hermeneutics or not, clearly the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming.

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Very true.
Does your NHNE have death , pain etc etc ....in it? If yes then it is a part of the old order and not the new order according to the word.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

DavidPT said:

Terrible hermeneutics or not, clearly the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming. That is a problem for Amils if Premil is the correct position and that Amil isn't. Assuming this scenario, are Amils then going to start arguing that the NHNE don't begin with the 2nd coming after all?

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


This passage is involving the NHNE. Verse 25---and dust shall be the serpent's meat---is meaning during this same period. This is obviously reminding us of the following.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Obviously---and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life---is meaning up until he is cast into the LOF. He wouldn't still be doing that once he is cast into the LOF, and that Isaiah 65:25 has him still doing that when the wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock.

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No. It is terrible hermeneutics because:

1. Nowhere in Revelation 20 is the millennium described as the NHNE. It must be forced into the text. It is adding unto Scripture.
2. Because Premil has no millennial passages anywhere in Scripture they have to steal passages that expressly relate to "the last days" or "the NHNE" and dump them into their so-called future millennium in order to sustain their faulty reasoning.
3. Employing such a manipulated ad-hoc mishmash of interpretation exposes the horrendous, unsafe and contradictory hermeneutics of Premil.
4. Scripture never talks about a 2 NHNEs - Mark 1 that is corrupt, temporal and full of billions of the unrighteous, and needs replaced after 1000 years, and Mark 2 that is perfect, glorified and righteous and belongs alone to the elect and will last forever. That is a Premil invention to sustain false teaching.
5. Most Bible students know Revelation 21 comes straight after Revelation 20 in time.
6. The details attributed to the 1st NHNE are the complete opposite to the book of Revelation 21-22.
7. Amils have repeatedly showed you that what Isaiah 65 teaches correlates with Revelation 21-22 not Revelation 20.

jeffweedaman said:

Very true.
Does your NHNE have death , pain etc etc ....in it? If yes then it is a part of the old order and not the new order according to the word.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

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Does your NHNE have the serpent no longer eating dust? The NHNE in Isaiah 65 has him still doing that. But how could he still be doing that if he is already being tormented in the LOF at this point? The only thing I can figure out, the NHNE are a process that begins with the 2nd coming, then once the GWTJ is finished, the end result is finally accomplished. I don't know what else to conclude since I am yet to be convinced of Amil and that I am convinced that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming.

DavidPT said:

Terrible hermeneutics or not, clearly the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming. That is a problem for Amils if Premil is the correct position and that Amil isn't. Assuming this scenario, are Amils then going to start arguing that the NHNE don't begin with the 2nd coming after all?

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


This passage is involving the NHNE. Verse 25---and dust shall be the serpent's meat---is meaning during this same period. This is obviously reminding us of the following.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Obviously---and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life---is meaning up until he is cast into the LOF. He wouldn't still be doing that once he is cast into the LOF, and that Isaiah 65:25 has him still doing that when the wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock.

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It seems likely that the passage is a metaphor indicating the peace that exists within the kingdom of God. It can equally describe the undisturbed nature of the eternal state. It is a fact that many eternal truths are described in a parabolic sense in order to impress the great mystery of eternity to our finite mind.

DavidPT said:

Does your NHNE have the serpent no longer eating dust? The NHNE in Isaiah 65 has him still doing that. But how could he still be doing that if he is already being tormented in the LOF at this point? The only thing I can figure out, the NHNE are a process that begins with the 2nd coming, then once the GWTJ is finished, the end result is finally accomplished. I don't know what else to conclude since I am yet to be convinced of Amil and that I am convinced that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming.

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Why do you always refuse to directly answer questions posed to you?


Very true.
Does your NHNE have death , pain etc etc ....in it?


If yes then it is a part of the old order and not the new order according to the word.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

keras said:

Revelation 20:4 could not be clearer; ONLY the GT martyrs are brought back to life, at the Return. NOT given immortality yet.

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Scripture never teaches that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future. This might be the single most ridiculous thing that you believe because there is no scriptural support for it whatsoever.

At the GWT, Rev 20:11-15, everyone who has ever lived, incl those still alive; will stand before God in Judgment. Some will receive immortality, most will go into the Lake of Fire.

1 Cor 15:23 can only refer to the GT martyrs. Otherwise a Biblical anomaly is made.
1 Cor 15:52 those people changed; are ones whose names were found in the Book of Life.

Your AMill belief has no Biblical support, it contradicts much scripture and prophecy, as well as logic and common sense.

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And, yet, you are completely incapable of proving your claim. Your doctrine consists of misinterpreting many Bible verses, taking them out of context and placing their fulfillments at the wrong times. That's it. It's unsupportable.

Your interpretation of 1 Cor 15:23 is very clearly flawed and completely ignores the context. And there is no basis whatsoever for concluding that the resurrected dead in Christ referenced in 1 Cor 15:23 are different than the resurrected dead in Christ referenced in 1 Cor 15:52. In 1 Cor 15:23 Paul references the second coming of Christ. When will that occur? At the last trumpet. When else? This is very obvious and you're still missing it becaues you try to reinterpret clear, straightforward scripture based on your interpretations of highly debatable scripture contained within the most symbolic book in all of scripture. Your interpretation methods are extremely flawed.

The context of 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Paul did not at all say that only some who are in Christ will be resurrected when He comes. He said they ALL will be. You deny clear, straightforward scripture. How can you hope to interpret scripture correctly when you can't even interpret the most clear, straightforward scriptures accurately?

And Paul did not change the subject between 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Cor 15:50. When he mentioned the dead being raised in 1 Cor 15:52 he was not talking about some other dead people being raised than he had previously mentioned in verse 23. That's nonsense. Only doctrinal bias, and nothing else, could cause someone to interpret it that way. He clearly taught that ALL of the dead in Christ will be raised at His return and they will all be changed to put on immortality at that time. You need to interpret other, less straightforward scripture in light of clear, straightforward scripture like this instead of the other way around.

jeffweedaman said:

What do you mean nothing has changed?

A number of people that nobody can count get saved David. They harbor a blessed hope due to Jesus current reign , and this hope is realized with his second appearing.

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Exactly! This really shows how flawed the Premil perspective is. They act like nothing changed after Christ's death and resurrection. That is insane and completely false! They act as if the preaching of the gospel had no impact on the world. It's sad.

DavidPT said:

Where is the physical resurrection of the saved recorded in Revelation 20 since you disagree that the first resurrection is meaning that?

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Where do you think the bodily resurrection of those who become saved during the thousand years is referenced in Revelation 20? Or anywhere else in scripture for that matter?