Who wrote the Book of Revelation?

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,640
7,849
63
Martinez
✟903,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, not crazy. John the Baptist was certainly one of the ones raised that day. But, not to live again another life on the earth. They only had a short time to walk around while Jesus was talking to Mary. Then, Jesus, and the raised saints that day, were taken to heaven that day. This was the third rapture, after Enoch and Elijah, but the first mass rapture. Later that same day, Jesus came back down to walk with the two on the road to Emmaus. Etc.
Can you point me to the verse that says the Saints ascended with Jesus Christ of Nazareth? Though I dont adhere to the multiple rapture theory, I find it intriguing to study. Thanks !
 
Upvote 0

Acts29

Active Member
Oct 24, 2021
287
76
50
Tennessee
✟23,633.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Can you point me to the verse that says the Saints ascended with Jesus Christ of Nazareth? Though I dont adhere to the multiple rapture theory, I find it intriguing to study. Thanks !

I kind of did already but you have to pay close attention to see it. From previous post:

Ok. Let me ask you a question.

1 Thess 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

God will bring those "who sleep in Jesus" to the rapture. Then, the dead in Christ will rise first. Therefore, those who "sleep in Jesus" cannot be the same the "dead in Christ." If the OT saints were not taken to heaven, who does God bring with Him to the rapture?

To add. Put yourself in the situation and time the day Jesus arose and the saints came out of the tombs.

Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Either, they ascended to heaven that day, or they lived another life on the earth, so to speak. If they stayed around and lived out another whole lifetime, don't you think the disciples would have talked about them a lot? They would have proof of life after death to demonstrate the truth of God. Yet, we never hear a single peep about them after being mentioned in Matt 27:52-53. Simple common sense suggests they did not stay on the earth.

The best evidence you seek is what Jesus Himself said.

Luke 4:17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

What if Jesus actually meant what He said, and this is not symbolic? "To proclaim liberty to the captives." The captives were in Hades, exactly where Jesus went upon death, and exactly where the souls were who were raised with Jesus. It isn't really hard to see it. He set the captives from Hades free the same time He was raised.

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

If you were raised up from Hades, only to live another life of difficulty in this cursed earth, is that really being set free?

To recap. Jesus said he had come to proclaim liberty to the captives. Simple common sense suggests those who walked out of the tombs did not stick around. Finally, Paul said God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus TO the rapture of the church before the dead in Christ arise. Thus, the OT saints had to get to heaven at some point in order to be brought to the rapture. Connect the dots. Those OT saints that walked out of the tombs were taken to heaven that day.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,640
7,849
63
Martinez
✟903,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I kind of did already but you have to pay close attention to see it. From previous post:

Ok. Let me ask you a question.

1 Thess 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

God will bring those "who sleep in Jesus" to the rapture. Then, the dead in Christ will rise first. Therefore, those who "sleep in Jesus" cannot be the same the "dead in Christ." If the OT saints were not taken to heaven, who does God bring with Him to the rapture?

To add. Put yourself in the situation and time the day Jesus arose and the saints came out of the tombs.

Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Either, they ascended to heaven that day, or they lived another life on the earth, so to speak. If they stayed around and lived out another whole lifetime, don't you think the disciples would have talked about them a lot? They would have proof of life after death to demonstrate the truth of God. Yet, we never hear a single peep about them after being mentioned in Matt 27:52-53. Simple common sense suggests they did not stay on the earth.

The best evidence you seek is what Jesus Himself said.

Luke 4:17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

What if Jesus actually meant what He said, and this is not symbolic? "To proclaim liberty to the captives." The captives were in Hades, exactly where Jesus went upon death, and exactly where the souls were who were raised with Jesus. It isn't really hard to see it. He set the captives from Hades free the same time He was raised.

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

If you were raised up from Hades, only to live another life of difficulty in this cursed earth, is that really being set free?

To recap. Jesus said he had come to proclaim liberty to the captives. Simple common sense suggests those who walked out of the tombs did not stick around. Finally, Paul said God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus TO the rapture of the church before the dead in Christ arise. Thus, the OT saints had to get to heaven at some point in order to be brought to the rapture. Connect the dots. Those OT saints that walked out of the tombs were taken to heaven that day.
Well, I belive they did stick around but at the end of the day this still remains a speculation .
Blessings
 
Upvote 0

Semper-Fi

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 26, 2019
1,791
757
63
Pacific north west
✟404,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is it John the Apostle?
Or some other John?
The style of Revelation is different from Gospel John.

2) who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony
of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

I think John the Apostle, who bare record of the word of God.
Just a few John 1:6-7, John 1:15, John 1:32, John 1:34,
John 12:17, John 5:33, John 21:24-

There is a reason The Royal Book of Revelation is different.
John was older, spent most time with Christ, was in jail.

It was revealed by God the Father, who gave it to His Son,
Christ then gave it to an angel, who gave it to John.

Then Christ added His own Words [red letters] to His Church.
Most of it was what John saw in a vision and he recorded it.
The Book of Revelation is meant to [ give lite] to the world.

But Only The Father knows the exact hour,
but we can know the seasons.

33) so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things,
know that it is near, even at the doors.

36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no,
not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up,
and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Semper-Fi

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 26, 2019
1,791
757
63
Pacific north west
✟404,495.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"To proclaim liberty to the captives."

2 Timothy 2:24-26 Could it be because of the devil ,
and those who have been taken captive unto his will ?

Jesus preached the coming kingdom of God, to repent of sins,
to be baptized, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15 Romans 1:16

Jesus said “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
This could only mean Luke 4:18-19 was fulfilled by that day.

The passage in luke that Jesus quoted is from Isaiah 61
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

And here is where He stopped reading in mid sentence.
Now the passage He quoted continues...

and [the day of vengeance] of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty
for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit
of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting
of the LORD, that he might be glorified......

He came the first time to complete Isa 61:1-2 but not all of verse 2.
When He returns, after the day of vengeance, He will complete verse 2
and forward through verse 7.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,838
294
Taylors
✟84,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Church tradition refers to a person called John the Elder, who also lived in Ephesus. Was he the writer of Revelation?

We also know about John Mark was accompanied Barnabas and later Peter. He probably stayed with Paul in Rome (Col 4:10; Phlm 1:24) and then travelled to Egypt. There are similarities between Revelation and Mark's Gospel. Is John Mark the same mysterious person referred to as John the Elder?

Yes, I do believe John Mark was the same person referred to as "John the Elder". However, I don't believe that this was Revelation's author. The historical confusion regarding various men by the same name of "John" was actually helpful at the time for protecting the identity of the leaders in the church who were under heavy persecution at the time. The angel in Revelation 22:9 said that this John was a "fellowservant" just like him, and one who, like John, was "of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book". In other words, the "angel" or "messenger" in this context was a certain kind of human messenger - not a celestial angel - and was the very same type of person that John was.

The similarities you mention between Revelation and (John) Mark's gospel are probably due to a family relation. I believe John Mark's uncle Barnabas wrote Revelation. Barnabas was not a proper name, but a nickname for the man Joses, meaning "Son of consolation". The "Beloved Barnabas" went by several different names to protect those under his charge. The "Beloved Barnabas" / Joses was actually "the beloved disciple" Lazarus. I believe he was also the beloved rich young ruler of the Jews who had great possessions, but who eventually after his resurrection by Christ was releasing the value of his property into the disciples' hands in Acts 4:36-37.

According to the secret gospel of Mark, this man was named "John Eleazar" (Eleazar being the source of the name Lazarus). Lazarus was actually the one given charge of Mary at Christ's crucifixion. Christ called him "Son" from the cross, and gave His mother Mary into his safekeeping as if she was Lazarus's own mother. This "son" was the consolation for Mary after Christ's death when Lazarus took her into his own home. But to protect Mary from the Jews who thought they could make plans to kill Lazarus again (John 12:10-11), Lazarus used the pseudonym of "Barnabas" so that they would not be able to also target Mary, who was under his care. What better person could Christ have given to watch over His own mother - the "beloved disciple", the resurrected Lazarus who could never get sick, weak or injured, and who would never die ever again?

I find it notable that the apostle "Our Beloved Barnabas" (Acts 15:25) who was "a good man and full of the Holy Ghost and faith" (Acts 11:24) began his evangelistic ministry with Paul just before Claudius became emperor, and when the famine in all the world was about to break out in the AD 40's. This time period would coincide with Mary's probable death in her late 50's or early 60's, at which time Barnabas would have been released from his charge of caring for Mary, and free to begin this evangelistic mission work with Paul.

I believe this beloved disciple Lazarus / Barnabas authored the original material for the gospel of John, the 3 epistles, and also Revelation. There are indications within the gospel of John and 3 John and Revelation which tell us that this man's witness was impeccably, unquestionably true (John 21:24, 3 John 1:12, and Revelation 22:9). John wrote his own claim to this unquestioned, widely-known quality of utter truthfulness, which claim could only be made by one who had attained the spiritual perfection of a resurrected saint who had no guile in their mouth.


Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Either, they ascended to heaven that day, or they lived another life on the earth, so to speak

Well, scripture tells us that it wasn't possible for any man to enter heaven's temple until the 7 plagues of the 7 angels had finished (Revelation 15:8). I doubt that you would say that the 7 plagues of the 7 angels had been finished by resurrection day. So that means those Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints still stayed on earth for some time after their resurrection that day. I believe that possibly the two men in white apparel at the ascension in Acts 1:10 were two of those Matthew 27 saints that had been left on earth for a time. And that the "angel" messenger of Revelation 22:9 who was a "fellow-servant" of John and one of the prophets which kept the sayings of the book was also more than likely one of those Matthew 27 saints who was left behind on earth for a time.
 
Upvote 0

Acts29

Active Member
Oct 24, 2021
287
76
50
Tennessee
✟23,633.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, scripture tells us that it wasn't possible for any man to enter heaven's temple until the 7 plagues of the 7 angels had finished (Revelation 15:8). I doubt that you would say that the 7 plagues of the 7 angels had been finished by resurrection day. So that means those Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints still stayed on earth for some time after their resurrection that day. I believe that possibly the two men in white apparel at the ascension in Acts 1:10 were two of those Matthew 27 saints that had been left on earth for a time. And that the "angel" messenger of Revelation 22:9 who was a "fellow-servant" of John and one of the prophets which kept the sayings of the book was also more than likely one of those Matthew 27 saints who was left behind on earth for a time.

Revelation 15:8 does say no one can enter the Temple during the bowls. Have you ever considered that no one enters the Temple because the saints are already in the Temple as described in Revelation 7? Or, have you considered why smoke fills the Temple during the bowls? Could it be because God is shielding the saints from having to see the torment? God can see thru any smoke, so it isn't there to blind Himself. Just things to think about.

If I may add something. You know that Jesus/Gabriel said John the Baptist will come in the spirit and power of Elijah, who is to come and will retore all things. I know most think this is already fulfilled despite John saying he was not Elijah and preformed no sign let alone any power of Elijah. If indeed John will come in the spirit and power of Elijah before Christ returns, and John was taken up with Jesus to heaven 2000 years ago, that creates an interesting situation. Here me out for a sec. Elijah was taken up to heaven from among the living. John was raised from the dead and then taken up to heaven. When John comes in the spirit of Elijah, he will be able to describe the rapture to those living so they will not be afraid. During his work of restoration some people will die and carry the message to Hades. Thus, both those on the earth and under the earth will be made aware of what is about to happen. Interesting to think about.
 
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,838
294
Taylors
✟84,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Elijah was taken up to heaven from among the living

Elijah was taken up into the atmospheric heaven - into the sky, but not into what Paul called "the third heaven" where God dwells. It was impossible that Elijah was taken into God's presence by the whirlwind, because John 3:13 said that to that point, "no man hath ascended up to heaven..." That would also exclude Elijah in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 who was only taken "as it were into heaven" (LXX). We know that Elijah never left the planet by the whirlwind transport, because he was writing a letter to King Jehoram some ten years later, predicting the manner of the king's death because of his past sinful actions (2 Chronicles 21:12).

As for the 7 seals of Revelation when compared to the 7 plagues referred to in Revelation 15, these are both ending at the same point in time on the calendar - with a resurrection. There is a recapitulation pattern going on in the way Revelation is written. In other words, those are not 21 consecutive events, but 3 sets of judgments that all conclude at the same point in time. So, those Revelation 7 saints in white apparel coming out of great tribulation, from every tongue people, kindred and nation, were all resurrected ones finally allowed into heaven's temple. Just as Revelation 15 says that heaven's temple was finally going to open for access to mankind to enter that heavenly temple when those 7 plagues were done. The smoke in the temple is God's shekinah glory being displayed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Acts29

Active Member
Oct 24, 2021
287
76
50
Tennessee
✟23,633.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
John was taken up into the atmospheric heaven - into the sky, but not into what Paul called "the third heaven" where God dwells. It was impossible that Elijah was taken into God's presence by the whirlwind, because John 3:13 said that to that point, "no man hath ascended up to heaven..." That would also exclude Elijah in 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 who was only taken "as it were into heaven" (LXX). We know that Elijah never left the planet by the whirlwind transport, because he was writing a letter to King Jehoram some ten years later, predicting the manner of the king's death because of his past sinful actions (2 Chronicles 21:12).

I think you are being a bit legalistic in interpretation here, as if deliberately trying not to believe something.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

This is obvious prophecy. It applies when the Son of Man is in heaven. No one has ascended into heaven on their own. No one gets into heaven any other way than Christ.

2 Chron 21:12 says a writing of Elijah was given to the king. Elijah did not have to be on the earth at that time. 12 And there came to him a message in writing from Eliu the prophet

As for the 7 seals of Revelation when compared to the 7 plagues referred to in Revelation 15, these are both ending at the same point in time on the calendar - with a resurrection. There is a recapitulation pattern going on in the way Revelation is written. In other words, those are not 21 consecutive events, but 3 sets of judgments that all conclude at the same point in time. So, those Revelation 7 saints in white apparel coming out of great tribulation, from every tongue people, kindred and nation, were all resurrected ones finally allowed into heaven's temple. Just as Revelation 15 says that heaven's temple was finally going to open for access to mankind to enter that heavenly temple when those 7 plagues were done. The smoke in the temple is God's shekinah glory being displayed.

The seals, trumpets, and bowls occur in the order as written. But, many need to rearrange the text because Revelation doesn't fit their own understanding. Revelation is simply the road map of all the prophets and is clearly laid out in sequence. It makes perfect sense once the prophets are understood. But, that is a whole other subject and off topic.
 
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,838
294
Taylors
✟84,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I think you are being a bit legalistic in interpretation here, as if deliberately trying not to believe something.

Here is the quote from the passage in 2 Kings 2:1 and 11, (IV Kings 2:1 in the LXX). "And it came to pass, when the Lord was going to take Eliu with a whirlwind as it were into heaven, that Eliu and Elisaie went out of Galgala....And it came to pass as they were going, they went on talking; and behold a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and it separated between them both; and Eliu was taken up in a whirlwind as it were into heaven."

This whirlwind only appeared to take Elijah into the third heaven, but in actuality he was transported through the sky to another location on earth, where he penned that 2 Chronicles 21:12 letter to King Jehoram almost 10 years later, listing sins which Jehoram had committed in the time since Elijah's whirlwind transport. This was not a letter sent by Elijah from heaven and God's presence.

It was absolutely vital that Christ be the very first resurrected human body to appear before God's presence. This is what gave Him the title of the "First-begotten". All the symbolism under Mosaic law that was related to the "First-born" in Israel pointed forward in time to Christ who would become the first resurrected human body to arrive in heaven's temple. Elijah did not make it there before Christ, or the prophet would have stolen the title of the "First-begotten" instead of Christ.

The seals, trumpets, and bowls do not all run consecutively. They ALL conclude with the very same event - a bodily resurrection of the saints appearing in heaven. This makes them parallel accounts of the same time period - not one long string of 21 consecutive events. But as you say, that IS another topic which deserves its own post. I'll look, since someone surely has already addressed this elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,802
4,309
-
✟681,411.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
According to the secret gospel of Mark, this man was named "John Eleazar" (Eleazar being the source of the name Lazarus). Lazarus was actually the one given charge of Mary at Christ's crucifixion. Christ called him "Son" from the cross, and gave His mother Mary into his safekeeping as if she was Lazarus's own mother.
The expression "the disciple whom Jesus loved" occurs 4 times in John's Gospel and identifies a disciple who:

1) leaned on Jesus' breast at the Last supper,
2) took Mary to his house after Jesus' crucifixion,
3) was present with Peter when the Magdalene told him about the Resurrection
4) was present with Peter when Jesus appeared to them at the lake of Galilee

I'm willing to accept that Lazarus was the disciple #2. In fact, I find it difficult to envision that John son of Zebedee had a house in or near Jerusalem. But I find it difficult to believe that Lazarus is disciple #1 or #3 or #4.

There is a real difficulty, here. And one would have to reject the entire Church tradition, assign the writing of John's Gospel to a disciple other than BarZebedee, and assume that Lazarus was also called John!!!

Did John BarZebedee suddenly disappear from history? And if he wrote Revelation as @Petros2015 suggested, why was the book initially rejected by several Church Fathers?

You even go a step further and identify Lazarus with Joseph BarNabas!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,802
4,309
-
✟681,411.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
This whirlwind only appeared to take Elijah into the third heaven, but
You're thinking of the 3rd heaven as the highest heaven, the throne of God. This is not necessarily the case.

in actuality he was transported through the sky to another location on earth, where he penned that 2 Chronicles 21:12 letter to King Jehoram almost 10 years later, listing sins which Jehoram had committed in the time since Elijah's whirlwind transport. This was not a letter sent by Elijah from heaven and God's presence.
Why do say this? Elijah was alive and was taken up during the reign of King Jehoram.
 
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,838
294
Taylors
✟84,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I'm willing to accept that Lazarus was the disciple #2. In fact, I find it difficult to envision that John son of Zebedee had a house in or near Jerusalem. But I find it difficult to believe that Lazarus is disciple #1 or #3 or #4.

For #1, I find this particular fact significant for identifying Lazarus with the beloved disciple leaning on Jesus's bosom at the Last Supper. In John 12:1-2, we find that "...Jesus six days before the Passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him." From this time forward in the book of John, the name of Lazarus disappears, but within the week, we then find the "beloved disciple" leaning on Jesus bosom at the Last Supper table in John 13:23. The same location which Lazarus had occupied just earlier in John 12:1-2. Why would the only named man given the special recognition of being loved by Christ suddenly disappear from Biblical record, only to give place to a nameless disciple whom Jesus loved? This leads me to believe they are one and the same man.

For #3, There is a distinction made between the reaction of John and Peter to viewing the empty tomb. It says that when the beloved disciple saw, he believed at that point (John 20:8). Peter evidently did not believe at that point, because Christ came to the eleven that same evening (minus Judas the twelfth) and "upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart" for not believing either the women' testimony or the two from the Emmaus road of seeing the risen Christ (Mark 16:14). This difference between the reaction of the "beloved disciple" and that of the eleven apostles (minus Judas) tells us that this "beloved disciple" was definitely NOT ONE OF THE CHOSEN ELEVEN. He was in a category by himself apart from them.

For #4, Again, there is a distinction made between John the son of Zebedee and "the disciple whom Jesus loved". These two men are listed separately in the fishing story at the sea of Tiberias. "There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee" (James and John), "and two other of his disciples." (John 21:2). One of these nameless "other" disciples was "that disciple whom Jesus loved", who alone first recognized that it was the Lord causing the miracle of the multitude of fishes finally being caught (John 21:7). The "beloved disciple" was NOT John the son of Zebedee.

Did John BarZebedee suddenly disappear from history?

Yes, he did, because Jesus predicted to both James and John sons of Zebedee that, "Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with..." (Matthew 20:20-23). In other words, the brothers James and John would both be violently martyred. We read very soon in the early church history of Acts 12:1-2, just before Claudius became emperor in AD 41 that "...about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword." If James was martyred this soon, it only makes sense that John his brother who would share the "same cup" would also lose his life around the same time.

There is a real difficulty, here. And one would have to reject the entire Church tradition, assign the writing of John's Gospel to a disciple other than BarZebedee, and assume that Lazarus was also called John!!!

Church tradition is not sacred. Like the noble Bereans, we are supposed to examine tradition even daily for veracity, by comparing it to scripture. For example, the location of Mount Sinai has traditionally been wrongly understood, and has recently been proven to be wrong by archaeology compared with scripture saying it was in Arabia. Likewise for the location of the temple, presumed by most to be the current Temple Mount, but again, proven to be wrong by scripture compared with archaeology. The traditional site of Christ's crucifixion is also incorrect (it was on the crest of the Mount of Olives). And the traditional site of the city of Sodom has also been incorrect (it was in the Jordan Valley at the top of the Dead Sea, according to scripture).

There is reason why the name of Lazarus can be linked with the name of John. I quote from Willis Barnstone's The Other Bible, The Secret Gospel of Mark, p. 342. "In a letter that Clement wrote to Theodore, he stated that there was more testimony attached to Mark than was presently available. Within this original Gospel was a discussion of the young man, John Eleazar (Eleazar being the Hebrew of the Greek Lazarus), who after Yahshua raised him from the tomb, went to the Garden of Gethsemane clothed in a fine white linen garment over his naked body." This would explain how Lazarus would also be linked to the name of John. John Eleazar /Lazarus would be the author of all the Johannine works, as well as the book of Revelation.

This would also explain the story about Revelation's author John being boiled in oil under Nero's orders. This attempt failed to kill him (Tertullian and Jerome's account). What can one expect if you try to turn a resurrected man (Lazarus) into a deep-fat fried individual? Resurrected individuals are incorruptible and immortal, and cannot die again. Any attempt to kill them again will only result in a complete failure.

If all of these aliases Lazarus adopted sound confusing, that is because it was meant to be confusing to the hostile Jews. Operating under many different names allowed Lazarus to continue caring for Mary by throwing the hostile Jews off the track. These enemies of Christ would have liked nothing better than to persecute Lazarus and the mother of Christ and anybody connected with them. Being incognito also allowed Lazarus to continue his evangelistic endeavors more effectively, and to deflect attention from his own resurrected status. Instead, he could then concentrate the emphasis of the Gospel onto the resurrected Christ, who deserved the preeminence.

You even go a step further and identify Lazarus with Joseph BarNabas!

I am not the one originating this view. I first encountered it on a gentleman's website under the post's title of "Identifying the Rich Young Ruler", and a couple other posts identifying Barnabas with Lazarus, called "Barnabas Whom Jesus Loved", and "The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved".

There is also a short e-book with the same theme of Lazarus being the "beloved disciple" at this link: www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,838
294
Taylors
✟84,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You're thinking of the 3rd heaven as the highest heaven, the throne of God. This is not necessarily the case.


Why do say this? Elijah was alive and was taken up during the reign of King Jehoram.

Didn't Paul consider the third heaven the place of God's dwelling in 2 Corinthians 12:2? This third heaven was the heaven which was inaccessible to mankind (including Elijah) until the end of the 7 plagues were finished, as Revelation 15:8 tells us.

As for Elijah being taken up during the reign of King Jehoram, are you referring to the co-regency which Jehoram had with his father for the last few years of Jehoshaphat's life? It was only after his father's death when the kingdom was in his hands alone that Jehoram murdered all his brethren and instituted idolatry in Judah. But Elijah had been transported by the whirlwind before Jehoram was reigning alone.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,802
4,309
-
✟681,411.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
For example, the location of Mount Sinai has traditionally been wrongly understood, and has recently been proven to be wrong by archaeology compared with scripture saying it was in Arabia.
I have doubts about the traditional location of Mt Sinai. I think it is in eastern Sinai, which was technically a part of the Roman province of Arabia Petraea. But I don't believe the claims that it is in what is now Saudi Arabia.

Likewise for the location of the temple, presumed by most to be the current Temple Mount, but again, proven to be wrong by scripture compared with archaeology. The traditional site of Christ's crucifixion is also incorrect (it was on the crest of the Mount of Olives).
How can everyone be wrong to this extent? What evidence do you have?

I first encountered it on a gentleman's website under the post's title of "Identifying the Rich Young Ruler", and a couple other posts identifying Barnabas with Lazarus, called "Barnabas Whom Jesus Loved", and "The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved".
Even if we allow that Lazarus was called John and that he wrote the 4th Gospel, what evidence would compel you to believe that he is Joseph BarNabas, who was a native of Cyprus (Act 4:36)?

Didn't Paul consider the third heaven the place of God's dwelling in 2 Corinthians 12:2?
No, he didn't.

But Elijah had been transported by the whirlwind before Jehoram was reigning alone.
No, he had not.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Acts29

Active Member
Oct 24, 2021
287
76
50
Tennessee
✟23,633.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here is the quote from the passage in 2 Kings 2:1 and 11, (IV Kings 2:1 in the LXX). "And it came to pass, when the Lord was going to take Eliu with a whirlwind as it were into heaven, that Eliu and Elisaie went out of Galgala....And it came to pass as they were going, they went on talking; and behold a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and it separated between them both; and Eliu was taken up in a whirlwind as it were into heaven."

This whirlwind only appeared to take Elijah into the third heaven, but in actuality he was transported through the sky to another location on earth, where he penned that 2 Chronicles 21:12 letter to King Jehoram almost 10 years later, listing sins which Jehoram had committed in the time since Elijah's whirlwind transport. This was not a letter sent by Elijah from heaven and God's presence.

It was absolutely vital that Christ be the very first resurrected human body to appear before God's presence. This is what gave Him the title of the "First-begotten". All the symbolism under Mosaic law that was related to the "First-born" in Israel pointed forward in time to Christ who would become the first resurrected human body to arrive in heaven's temple. Elijah did not make it there before Christ, or the prophet would have stolen the title of the "First-begotten" instead of Christ.

The seals, trumpets, and bowls do not all run consecutively. They ALL conclude with the very same event - a bodily resurrection of the saints appearing in heaven. This makes them of the parallel accounts of the same time period - not one long string of 21 consecutive events. But as you say, that IS another topic which deserves its own post. I'll look, since someone surely has already addressed this elsewhere.

No worries. He will explain these things himself later this year.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The simple fact is we don't know.

But I think these are the big three contenders:
1) St. John the Apostle
2) St. John the Presbyter
3) Some other John

This is made further complicated because, depending on the source, John the Apostle and John the Presbyter are either the same person, or else two different people.

And because of this, traditions associated with "John" may or may not belong to the Apostle, or the Presbyter, or maybe they're the same person anyway so it doesn't matter.

My personal preference is to refer to the author of the Revelation as St. John of Patmos, as I feel this is being honest to the authorship of the text without imposing too many other assumptions about the author.

The exact authorship of the Johanine literature is still an ongoing topic of debate.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
How do we even know the author's name is John?

The author of the Revelation identifies himself as "John". So we know that someone named "John" wrote it.

We don't have this with the other Johanine texts, the Gospel of John and the three Epistles of John are internally anonymous, with the exception that the author of the Epistles sometimes identifies himself as "the Presbyter" (modern English "the Elder"). But it's also not certain that all three epistles are by the same author either. Many in the early Church only acknowledged 1 John, with 2 and 3 John frequently omitted and considered suspect--what was called in ancient times Antilegomena meaning "disputed writings".

Authorship of the Gospel and the Epistles relies on the testimony of ancient Christian writers.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: GreekOrthodox
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,191
Yorktown VA
✟176,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I wonder who wrote the book of Hebrew?

The Eastern church attributes it to Paul even though it was not written in Paul's style. “If any church accepts this Epistle as Paul’s, it is commendable. It was not for nothing that the people of old considered this Epistle to have been written by Paul. God alone knows who the real author was.” (Eusebius of Caesarea. Church History. VI. 25, 11-14).

IMHO, it was written by one of Paul's scribes, Paul may have approved the letter and it was sent with copies of other letters thus being attributed to Paul.

Did the Apostle Paul Write the Epistle to the Hebrews?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0